Over-vaccination info?

TooManyDogs

It's been cropping up more and more lately that in general pet owners are over vaccinating and over medicating pets.

I'd love to see more concrete information on it if anyone has anything, I don't want to be over vaccinating/medicating my dogs but would need to see decent studies on the subject with pro's and con's before I'd make the decision to stop.

Anyone got any links?

Vince32

Interesting topic

My first google hit came up with this: http://www.healthyhappydogs.com/Vaccinate
I assume this to be an Australian author, I'm not convinced his argument holds water though.

Does the dog need vaccines? - no
Would it be better off getting the shots once a year? - no

Over medicating in general is a bad idea, but boosters for common illnesses makes sense to me. If my Doctor wanted me to have a tetanus booster, I wouldn't refuse just because the likelihood of contracting it was very low.

I don't know alot about poisoning dogs with medication, it has me stretched to come up with a valid response.

All I can say is, I don't think annual boosters can do much harm, and personally I wouldn't risk not getting them, after all, if the dog does get sick I'd have to go back to the vet with my tail between my legs...

Edit: There is something about fleas becoming resistant to the monthly treatments, and some people believe it's best to not treat for fleas until the animal actually has them. Again I can't say much either way on that.

Watching with interest.

Cherry Blossom

A quick search on google scholar brings up a whole bunch of articles written by people qualified to comment on the subject, most of it has to be downloaded, it's not stuff you can provide links to.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=over+vaccinating+pets&hl=en&btnG=Search&as_sdt=1%2C5&as_sdtp=on

I'm going to seek advice on titer testing before its time for my dogs vaccs again. She had a very bad reaction to her 1 year booster. There are links between over-vaccination and some types of aggressive cancer, and people are starting take legal action against vets due to damage caused to their pets by over-vaccination.

suziwalsh

http://www.future-of-vaccination.co.uk/vaccine-schedule-nobivac.asp


I usually go by this, what the drugs companies recommend. Notice the full dose DHPPi vaccine is only recommended to be given every 3rd year. I know in the US they take a blood sample and only vaccinate to your own dogs ammunity levels.

There are a lot of studies done on over vaccination. Also just because your dog is vaccinated doesn't mean he/she is protected. One of my most recent experiences was a dog that was given her 3 course of puppy vaccinations but at 11 months contracted a strain of parvo virus.

TooManyDogs

It does seem that alot of the sites have scare mongering info but I do think it's interesting that the American Animal Hospital Association has now recommended only vaccinating every 3 years or getting an antibody titre blood test done before getting boosters, but there's no clear guidelines about whether the antibody titre should be quantitative or qualitative. If you exercise your dogs in rural areas where the have proximity should you always have a lepto shot in case of rats?
I'd love to see stats on risk of effects of booster versus risks of disease, maybe I'm asking impossible!

EDIT - God I type slow! Thanks AJ - didn't know about Google Scholar, thanks suziwalsh for the link

Cherry Blossom

My own vet told me that lepto needs to be done every year, but some of the others can be done every 3 years or possibly longer. This study is of particular interest to me as both my current dog and new pup fall under the authors list of susceptible breeds.

http://www.dogs4dogs.com/JR_Articles/Breeds%20at%20Vaccine%20Risk.htm

Vince32

It seems that everyone is selling something ! Titre blood test cost how much? + what ever vaccines are actually needed?

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but I'm always dubious about next generation health care, progress is good, and if it's proved right then that's fine imo.

But if these people are going to make claims about my dogs health, I'd want to see their studies, data and stats before I could make a decision like that, and it should be provided.

paultf

Here's a couple of links:

http://www.dfordog.co.uk/didyouknow_vaccinations.htm

http://www.dfordog.co.uk/didyouknow_annual_vaccinations.htm

Cherry Blossom

Vince32 wrote: »

It seems that everyone is selling something ! Titre blood test cost how much? + what ever vaccines are actually needed?

As well as being safe in the knowledge you are doing the best for your own pets, you would also be contributing to the data that is out there on the topic by having these tests done. That is the only way the true risks/benefits can be measured over time. This is a relative new advance so I think this is important.

Vince32

I agree AJ, and these people seem to have a handle on it, I just skimmed your link and it looked valid, plenty of scientific data and stats, admittedly I didn't read it all yet but I'm coming around.

I'd still love to see the data they collected already, rural vs burbs, environment, age, breed, etc.

There are so many variables it's hard to comprehend, but if they say it will help the animals, maybe I'll book a titre test and get some first hand info.

axle108

While the internet can be a very informative/convenient source of information, it contains a huge amount of misinformation. Humankind has the ability to learn from previous generations and through trials and research, to learn and vaccinate against what is harmfull to our health. Unfortunately due to a canines inquisitive nature, if it smells nice eat it and this leeds them open to infection. We have the knowledge to know by putting ourselves in certain situations, we are at risk of infection.
Yes there are positives and possibly negatives to yearly vaccinations, but there are millions or billions of canines that are annually vaccinated and have no ill affects that im aware of. The vaccinations include innoculting against potentially fatal diseases.

Are we ready to take that risk!

Cherry Blossom

axle108 wrote: »

Yes there are positives and possibly negatives to yearly vaccinations, but there are millions or billions of canines that are annually vaccinated and have no ill affects that im aware of. The vaccinations include innoculting against potentially fatal diseases.

Are we ready to take that risk!

I think you may have missed the point a little, it has been proven and recommended by the manufacturer of the vaccines that immunity lasts for 3 years plus for some of the components that are being given every year, if you recall all the injections you got as a child (some of which also can have atrocious consequences) - what is happening with pets is they are being given these every year for life all in one go when it has been proven that they are still effective for three times that period. If you are female you will remember the test you got before your rubella vac in 6th class to determine if you already had immunity before you were given the vaccine, well this is similar to that.

Vince32

I've done a few google searches on costing and effectiveness, and it does seem that some dogs will hold immunity for longer than 12 months or even 24 in some cases.

Previous to this thread I was under the impression that dogs only held immunity for 10-14 months, hence the reason for annual boosters.

But there is no way of knowing which boosters your dog may need until you test for it. So the price of the test costs anyway between €75 -150 depending on the "scope" of the tests, for example testing for rabies would prove more expensive.

The cost of the boosters hover in the €30 region depending on location, so in that light it's easy to see the cheaper option was preferred, and immunising for everything every year was the done thing.

However, the cost of boosting everything, has cost some owners more than €30, in fact it has cost them more in treatments for illnesses directly caused by over medication, or in some cases the dogs life.

There are good arguments for and against this topic, I still am undecided, but very interested.

ISDW

Unfortunately, until there is a whole change of attitude across the board, annual vaccinations will remain. Most insurance policies are void if the dog isn't vaccinated yearly, and kennels won't accept dogs without the vaccinations, travelling abroad, even to the UK needs the pet passport now (I know they are saying its not going to be enforced between the UK and Ireland, but the law is still there, so it could be) so it goes on.

I don't know what the situation is here with insurance for boarding kennels, but a few people in the UK that run them have stated that they would be more than happy to accept titre testing for kennel guests, but their insurance insists that all dogs are vaccinated annually:(

Vince32

I wonder if insurance company's would accept a titer test + vaccines the animal showed no defence against??

As long as the dog won't get sick, it shouldn't matter right??

ISDW

Vince32 wrote: »

I wonder if insurance company's would accept a titer test + vaccines the animal showed no defence against??

As long as the dog won't get sick, it shouldn't matter right??

No, not at the moment, thats what I mean, so many things need to change.

I would much rather titre test, then at least I'd know if the vaccine was actually working or not. A friend of mine had the rabies vaccine a while ago, under the old rules, had the test done, and the dog failed, didn't have enough antibodies. Made me wonder about the other vaccinations that we give our dogs, we trust that they are effective, but how do we know that they are?

TG1

This thread made me dig out Bob's vaccination records, and reading through them, I'm a bit perplexed! From a complete lay-man perspective, as far as I can tell, my vet practice changed system in 2008. From his first yearly booster in 2003 he was getting two vaccines every year, one called CPV-L and one called DA2Pi. In 2008 he just got one called Lepto ci, and the same in 2009, then in 2010 he got the two again, and just got the Lepto ci one in 2011. Does anyone know if this mean he's only getting the full set every three years?
I'm all for putting as little as possible into his system, and am very happy if they are trying to avoid over vaccination, but now I'm a bit worried about my insurance. I would have thought this was something the vet should have spoken to me about, and it will definitely be something I bring up when he goes back for his next booster.
Can anyone tell me does this mean my insurance will be void if anything does go wrong, or since it seems to be general practice for the vet surgery will we still be covered? I'm already worried as I'm going to have to pay a huge excess if anything goes wrong as he is over 7 so the policy would want to be valid!!

Vince32

Ask your insurer, if they say it's void without yearly boosters, if it is, your then faced with 2 choices, either risk it and get the boosters, or risk it and don't get the boosters.

There is so much work to be done and completed on this topic, and while it seems to hold water, 100,000's of dogs get boosters with no side effects at all, and a percentage (number unknown) that do present with side effects or death.

So until it's main stream veterinary practice and a number on independent studies have been carried out, I don't think insurance companies will allow coverage on non immunised pets.

That said the science is appealing, and I would hope that 50% of dog owners have the test done and contribute to the data collection, so more detailed statistics can be complied.

axle108

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

I think you may have missed the point a little, it has been proven and recommended by the manufacturer of the vaccines that immunity lasts for 3 years plus for some of the components that are being given every year, if you recall all the injections you got as a child (some of which also can have atrocious consequences) - what is happening with pets is they are being given these every year for life all in one go when it has been proven that they are still effective for three times that period. If you are female you will remember the test you got before your rubella vac in 6th class to determine if you already had immunity before you were given the vaccine, well this is similar to that.

No point missed. While yes there are always atrocious consequences,i believe yearly vaccination has kept the occurance of these viruses down. The manufacturers recommend that immunity can last for 3 years plus, but at what point do you get a titre test for your dog and is it going to be different times for each and every dog. What if at 3 years the titre test is done and your told to come back in roughly 3 months to get another one to check for immunity. Im interested in this of course, but not convinced yet that it needs changing.

ISDW

axle108 wrote: »

No point missed. While yes there are always atrocious consequences,i believe yearly vaccination has kept the occurance of these viruses down. The manufacturers recommend that immunity can last for 3 years plus, but at what point do you get a titre test for your dog and is it going to be different times for each and every dog. What if at 3 years the titre test is done and your told to come back in roughly 3 months to get another one to check for immunity. Im interested in this of course, but not convinced yet that it needs changing.

My understanding is that instead of getting the annual booster, you get an annual titre test to ensure the antibodies are present, then every 2/3 years, whichever is recommended, the dog gets the booster. Lepto is different, that is still recommended to be done annually, as is KC.

Lizard_Moon

TG1 wrote: »

This thread made me dig out Bob's vaccination records, and reading through them, I'm a bit perplexed! From a complete lay-man perspective, as far as I can tell, my vet practice changed system in 2008. From his first yearly booster in 2003 he was getting two vaccines every year, one called CPV-L and one called DA2Pi. In 2008 he just got one called Lepto ci, and the same in 2009, then in 2010 he got the two again, and just got the Lepto ci one in 2011. Does anyone know if this mean he's only getting the full set every three years?
I'm all for putting as little as possible into his system, and am very happy if they are trying to avoid over vaccination, but now I'm a bit worried about my insurance. I would have thought this was something the vet should have spoken to me about, and it will definitely be something I bring up when he goes back for his next booster.
Can anyone tell me does this mean my insurance will be void if anything does go wrong, or since it seems to be general practice for the vet surgery will we still be covered? I'm already worried as I'm going to have to pay a huge excess if anything goes wrong as he is over 7 so the policy would want to be valid!!

Hi
I am assuming, from the details you have given, that your vet is vaccinating your dog at the manufacturer recommended intervals for the vaccines used and as such you would be covered for insurance purposes. The same would be true for boarding kennels.
As regards titre testing we have no problem carrying it out but it is expensive as you would be testing for every component in the vaccines so about 7 or 8, if rabies too, titre tests.

I hope that helps

LM

ISDW

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

Hi
I am assuming, from the details you have given, that your vet is vaccinating your dog at the manufacturer recommended intervals for the vaccines used and as such you would be covered for insurance purposes. The same would be true for boarding kennels.
As regards titre testing we have no problem carrying it out but it is expensive as you would be testing for every component in the vaccines so about 7 or 8, if rabies too, titre tests.

I hope that helps

LM

Thanks for that, thats really interesting. So if the manufacturers recommend every 3 years, then the insurance would be valid. Hmmmm, wonder how those recommendations could be changed, when they obviously make a lot of money from annual boosters.

Lizard_Moon

ISDW wrote: »

Thanks for that, thats really interesting. So if the manufacturers recommend every 3 years, then the insurance would be valid. Hmmmm, wonder how those recommendations could be changed, when they obviously make a lot of money from annual boosters.

Sorry ISDW do you mean the vets or the vaccine companies make a lot of money, bit confused?. Insurance companies I assume want your dog vaccinated so the don't have to pay for its treatment for parvo lepto etc.

We can only go by the licensed vaccinal intervals of the products used. The vaccine companies have been changing these intervals based on scientific research. As with all licensed drugs these changes have to be approved in each jurisdiction ie Ire, Uk, Spain etc so there is a lead in time of years for all changes.

I am not involved with insurance or vaccine companies

LM

Vince32

I found this on an American site, and it says some dogs / cats in certain situations need some yearly shots, but not the full range. Most jabs will protect for 3 years with exceptions
- What Vaccinations Should My Adult Pet Get ?

With the exceptions I have mentioned (Kennel Cough, Leptospirosis, Lyme) adult dogs do not need to be vaccinated more than every three years. -
Rabies is mandatory yearly (apparently)

I don't know how valid the info is now in 2012, and from an Irish / UK point of view, but it's worth a read.
http://www.2ndchance.info/dogvacs.htm

ISDW

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

Sorry ISDW do you mean the vets or the vaccine companies make a lot of money, bit confused?. Insurance companies I assume want your dog vaccinated so the don't have to pay for its treatment for parvo lepto etc.

We can only go by the licensed vaccinal intervals of the products used. The vaccine companies have been changing these intervals based on scientific research. As with all licensed drugs these changes have to be approved in each jurisdiction ie Ire, Uk, Spain etc so there is a lead in time of years for all changes.

I am not involved with insurance or vaccine companies

LM

Sorry, vaccination manufacturers. My vet would happily vaccinate less, as they always have the best interests of the animals first, above their profits - well, thats what I've found from dealing with them anyway.:)