Trioka attitude to Greek and Irish debt

Red Actor

Is there a reason that the trioka are insisting that Greece default on soverign debt by at least 50% in order to get financail assistance and at the same time insist that Ireland pay 100% of private bank debts in order for Ireland to get financial assistance for the State?

Funfair

Red Actor wrote: »

Is there a reason that the trioka are insisting that Greece default on soverign debt by at least 50% in order to get financail assistance and at the same time insist that Ireland pay 100% of private bank debts in order for Ireland to get financial assistance for the State?

Greece simply can't afford to pay aparently we can afford to pay...

Enda Kenny said if we default we are basicly saying we won't pay rather then we can't afford to pay...

thebman

Funfair wrote: »

Greece simply can't afford to pay aparently we can afford to pay...

Enda Kenny said if we default we are basicly saying we won't pay rather then we can't afford to pay...

Yeah we have to wait another year or two until it becomes clearly unsustainable for us to pay back our debt :P

Isn't Greek default just restructuring payment period? Not really a write off in that case but a longer term issue to deal with it making it more sustainable but still not a nice situation.

No real nice way of getting out of loans you shouldn't have taken out in the first place.

Good loser

Funfair wrote: »

Greece simply can't afford to pay aparently we can afford to pay...

Enda Kenny said if we default we are basicly saying we won't pay rather then we can't afford to pay...

Spot on.

Ever notice Pat Kenny asking over and over (and oh so innocently) If

Greece gets a discount why can't we?

He must know the answer by now.

Everybody knows Greece can't pay.

If Ireland follows suit the euro collapses.

MrCreosote

Good loser wrote: »

Spot on.

Ever notice Pat Kenny asking over and over (and oh so innocently) If

Greece gets a discount why can't we?

He must know the answer by now.

Everybody knows Greece can't pay.

If Ireland follows suit the euro collapses.

Pat's just asking the same question that everybody else is.

It's crazy to think that Ireland can pay. We're in the same boat as Greece, just might take a year or two more to get there.

antoobrien

Red Actor wrote: »

Is there a reason that the trioka are insisting that Greece default on soverign debt by at least 50% in order to get financail assistance and at the same time insist that Ireland pay 100% of private bank debts in order for Ireland to get financial assistance for the State?

Greece has external debts over well over €500 billion vs GDP of about €250 billion. Exports (€16b) are outweighed by imports (€48b) by 3/1.

Their austerity package reportedly includes:
Cuts

• 20% PS pay cut
• 1 year cut of 60% for 30,000 PS workers
• 20% cut on monthly pensions above €1k
• 40% cut on monthly pensions at the same level for existing retirees under 55
• Health spending to be cut by €2.1 billion between 2011 & 2015
• Education spending to be trimmed through merging or closing of 1,976 schools
• Total defence cuts of approx €1.5 billion between 2011-2015

Taxes

• Taxable income threshold reduced from €12k to €5k (ours reduced from €18,500 to €16,000)
• A " "solidarity levy”" of between one and five per cent per household, which will be raised twice in 2012 "
• Excise duty to go up by 33%
• Luxury tax on items like pools, yachts etc (I'd like to see that one here)
• VAT rise (unspecified)

Privitisation

• Sell 10% of the national telecoms provider for €400m
• "Selling stakes in various banks, utilities, ports, airports and land holdings in 2011/2012"

If you compare us like for like to Greece, we're a whole lot better off.

podge3

antoobrien wrote: »

Greece has external debts over well over €500 billion vs GDP of about €250 billion. Exports (€16b) are outweighed by imports (€48b) by 3/1.

Their austerity package reportedly includes:
Cuts

• 20% PS pay cut
  ..
  .
  .
  .
  .
  .
  .
  al telecoms provider for €400m
• "Selling stakes in various banks, utilities, ports, airports and land holdings in 2011/2012"

If you compare us like for like to Greece, we're a whole lot better off.

Anto - how dare you come on here and be even slightly positive about Irelands economic future Didn't you know this was the doom and gloom Forum :rolleyes:

Anyhoo, you are obviously correct that Ireland is much better off than Greece, although that isn't saying too much.

And why are posters talking about paying back our debt? Our sovereign debt will probably never be paid off - default or not. We will continue to pay the interest on the debt and rollover to new borrowing when an existing bond becomes due.

IIRC, Ireland owed about £25 billion since the 80's. This was never paid back, even when we could. How can we ever hope to pay back €150 to €200 billion?

Thats why all this "burn the bondholders" to save the economy is utter rubbish. All we would probably save on those bonds that we could tear up is a few hundred million on interest per year.

bleg

You have the case in Greece where due to cutbacks that cancer medication is not available, 50% of the drugs that they use routinely are difficult to get and some pharmacies can't even get aspirin to sell.

Good loser

MrCreosote wrote: »

Pat's just asking the same question that everybody else is.

It's crazy to think that Ireland can pay. We're in the same boat as Greece, just might take a year or two more to get there.

If we were in the same boat as Greece we would have the measures outlined in post 6 in place here.


If Ireland gets a bailout because it feels entitled to it (a self defined and self interested entitlement) what about Portugal, Spain and Italy? Should they contribute to Ireland's bailout or join us in seeking one?


If we wait another while we might get a democratic mandate for one. The only row then would be about who's first in the queue.

MrCreosote

Good loser wrote: »

If we were in the same boat as Greece we would have the measures outlined in post 6 in place here.


If Ireland gets a bailout because it feels entitled to it (a self defined and self interested entitlement) what about Portugal, Spain and Italy? Should they contribute to Ireland's bailout or join us in seeking one?


If we wait another while we might get a democratic mandate for one. The only row then would be about who's first in the queue.

We might not be in the same boat as Greece, but it hardly matters that ours is better when they are both sinking. Just because we are "better off than Greece" does not mean we are in any sort of a good position ourselves. Quite the contrary in fact.

Better to default now, sink the euro if that is what results, and get the pain over with in 2-3 years rather than dragging the whole country down for a decade or longer.

miambilli

podge3 wrote: »

Anto - how dare you come on here and be even slightly positive about Irelands economic future Didn't you know this was the doom and gloom Forum :rolleyes:

Anyhoo, you are obviously correct that Ireland is much better off than Greece, although that isn't saying too much.

And why are posters talking about paying back our debt? Our sovereign debt will probably never be paid off - default or not. We will continue to pay the interest on the debt and rollover to new borrowing when an existing bond becomes due.

IIRC, Ireland owed about £25 billion since the 80's. This was never paid back, even when we could. How can we ever hope to pay back €150 to €200 billion?

Thats why all this "burn the bondholders" to save the economy is utter rubbish. All we would probably save on those bonds that we could tear up is a few hundred million on interest per year.

Small problem with rolling over debt. You have to pay the market interest rate that your existing bonds are currently trading at. 10%+ means you won't be rolling over your debt for long because no one will lend to you.

Exponential functions are a bitch.

Good loser

MrCreosote wrote: »

We might not be in the same boat as Greece, but it hardly matters that ours is better when they are both sinking. Just because we are "better off than Greece" does not mean we are in any sort of a good position ourselves. Quite the contrary in fact.

Better to default now, sink the euro if that is what results, and get the pain over with in 2-3 years rather than dragging the whole country down for a decade or longer.

We are not in a good position.

We are also a long way from being bad enough to default.

You're premature/immature.

The 'Occupy' crowd reckon we're going to find oil anyday now.