Duran v Chavez at 135lbs

tryingmybestt

this fantasy fight popped up in another thread......two of my favourite fighters of all time......the more i thought about the fight the more i struggled to pick a winner.....probably one of the best possible fantasy match ups ever !

my initial analysis below:

Speed: slight advantage Duran
Power: Advantage Duran, although possibly equal to the body
Chin: Slight advantage to Chavez
Footwork: Duran had faster feet, advantage duran
Ring generalship: Chavez was one of the best at cutting off the ring, advantage Chavez
Defence: Both very good, slight advantage to Duran
Fitness: equal when both fully fit
Size and strength: although Chavez was known for his strength i'd give an edge to Duran for his natural size and strength
technique: slight edge to chavez, especially with throwing shorter neater shots....duran was a bit wilder at lightweight
Mental toughness: Equal, both two of the most determined fighters in history
Combination punching: on the outside i'd give the advantage to duran and on the inside i'd give the advantage to chavez

Overall if i had to choose a winner i'd choose Duran but it's so close to call....possibly his slightly bigger size would swing it for him but i definitely wouldn't bet the house....Chavez was one of the best ever and I'd never count him out

What do you think ???????

cowzerp

It would be an amazing match and is so hard to call-i think Duran's fame will get him more votes here as Chavez is not as famous as he should be to casual Boxing fan's

I'm going to call it a draw, genuinely think if they fought 10 times it could be 5 each

walshb

Duran 9/10 times. Styles make fights, and Duran's combination of speed, power, defense, feet, toughness, chin and versatility are all wrong for JCC.

This is like Mel Taylor with a whole lot more power.

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

Overall if i had to choose a winner i'd choose Duran but it's so close to call....possibly his slightly bigger size would swing it for him but i definitely wouldn't bet the house....Chavez was one of the best ever and I'd never count him out

What do you think ???????

Duran's bigger size? Isn't the fight where both are at 135?

Duran and Chavez are very very similar. Don't see how it is poosible to even say one was bigger. Physically looking they even look the same.

And, as you say, Chavez in the old days, probably would have been a LW during his early career. He started out as a SFW-LW, aged 20/21. Boiled down then to 130 and just below.

Duran was as low as 118 aged 17 or so, 130 aged 20 and then moved up. This match is a perfect match as regards fighters' size and physicality.

I really am confused with yourself here. You spend all day yesterday debating that men today (post 1983) who avail of the previous day weigh in were going to be bigger/heavier come fight night. Now, Duran is winning because at LW, where you have this match, he may be bigger?

Duran as a LW weighed in the same day; Chavez as a LW weighed in previous day. Please explain how Duran at this propsed match, LW, is bigger on the night of the fight?

Bear in mind that when I asked Paul if size was the only reason that at LW Chavez beat Duran, he said size was ONE reason. So, are you disagreing now with this? Also, both men naturally are almost physically the same. Look at the weights, heights, reach and timelines.

Reason I bring it up is two fold: One, to be very precise, and two, had it been me who made this post, I can bet you would have shot back with, "You are so contradicting yourself," or "your views on prizefighting are so misguided."

cowzerp

In fairness the question asked was both at 135, not both with different weigh in rules.

i answered based on both same weigh in rules.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

In fairness the question asked was both at 135, not both with different weigh in rules.

i answered based on both same weigh in rules.

Well, he/she should have stressed that. He did spend all day yesterady saying these matches can be unfair due to the weigh in rules, which could see one man 10 lbs heavier, his words. I more saw it as 4-5 lbs heavier for the lower weight divisions. He/she then posts a thread mactching the old day fighter vs. the "new" fighter. I simply assumed he was still thinking and applying the rule, seeing as he debated it so much yesterday.

So, both weigh in same day OR previous day, I still think both are pretty equal. No size difference for either.

And, here is one: If it was Duran same day vs. Chavez previous day, and we agree that Chavez is in this scenario is bigger/heavier, as you noted, how does Duran then suddenly become bigger when both weigh in together?

Is it a case where Chavez goes from being bigger/heavier (4-6 lbs), or possibly ten lbs according to the OP, to now Duran being bigger if both weigh together? That does not make sense.

Paul, both weigh in together, who do you think is bigger? You did say earlier that uner old vs new rule Chavez would be bigger, and used that as ONE reason for picking him.

Me thinks both are equal.

Anyway, Duran all the way in this one, or at any weight.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Duran 9/10 times. Styles make fights, and Duran's combination of speed, power, defense, feet, toughness, chin and versatility are all wrong for JCC.

This is like Mel Taylor with a whole lot more power.

theres no ways it's so clear cut and duran wins 90%.......its much closer than that and i'd say more like a 60/40 split in duran's favour.....

duran was nothing like taylor, taylor was a pure boxer, duran was a fighter....

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Well, he/she should have stressed that. He did spend all day yesterady saying these matches can be unfair due to the weigh in rules, which could see one man 10 lbs heavier, his words. I more saw it as 4-5 lbs heavier for the lower weight divisions. He/she then posts a thread mactching the old day fighter vs. the "new" fighter. I simply assumed he was still thinking and applying the rule, seeing as he debated it so much yesterday.

So, both weigh in same day OR previous day, I still think both are pretty equal. No size difference for either.

And, here is one: If it was Duran same day vs. Chavez previous day, and we agree that Chavez is in this scenario is bigger/heavier, as you noted, how does Duran then suddenly become bigger when both weigh in together?

Is it a case where Chavez goes from being bigger/heavier (4-6 lbs), or possibly ten lbs according to the OP, to now Duran being bigger if both weigh together? That does not make sense.

Paul, both weigh in together, who do you think is bigger? You did say earlier that uner old vs new rule Chavez would be bigger, and used that as ONE reason for picking him.

Me thinks both are equal.

Anyway, Duran all the way in this one, or at any weight.

you seem to want to keep confusing things and are unable to understand simple logic....

the match would be made with both using the same weigh in rule OBVIOUSLY

duran was naturally bigger than chavez.....he had much thicker legs and torso although similar height.....the is backed up by the fact ended his real career at light welter....he dabbled at welter but his real career ended at light welter....duran founght above middleweight and was middleweight champion......duran was a naturally bigger man and even though they would both weigh in using similar rules, come fight time id say duran would be the heavier man...

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

theres no ways it's so clear cut and duran wins 90%.......its much closer than that and i'd say more like a 60/40 split in duran's favour.....

duran was nothing like taylor, taylor was a pure boxer, duran was a fighter....

Taylor stood toe to toe with JCC and was beating him clearly for 11 rds, yes, he took a lot too, but was clearly winning.

Duran is so so much better in all areas apart from maybe hand speed. Stronger, far heavier handed, much better defense, boxing acumen. So so much more versatile.

So, yes, Duran was nothing like Taylor, you are right.;)

What I was implying was that the nature of the victory would resemble the Taylor-JCC fight, in that Duran would be clearly ahead, too fast, BUT, also hitting a lot heavier than Taylor. Landing heavier shots throughout.

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

you seem to want to keep confusing things and are unable to understand simple logic....

the match would be made with both using the same weigh in rule OBVIOUSLY

duran was naturally bigger than chavez.....he had much thicker legs and torso although similar height.....the is backed up by the fact ended his real career at light welter....he dabbled at welter but his real career ended at light welter....duran founght above middleweight and was middleweight champion......duran was a naturally bigger man and even though they would both weigh in using similar rules, come fight time id say duran would be the heavier man...

Well, if it's obvious, why not put that in. You made the match. State that it's to be made with same rules.

Now, you are saying Duran is bigger. Show me how. Show me the measurements to back up these claims.
At least I provide ages, timelines, heights etc. Just vaguely saying stuff like "his torso was bigger, legs thicker" is crap.

I could understand if you said that Floyd Mayweather was bigger than Barry McGuigan. That is backed up ny measurements AND weights, and physical appearance to the eye.

Let us see some real measurments. What we do know is that both were roughly identical in height, started their careers at different ages, but at certain ages they were similar and equal in weight. These are things we know. Their reach is almost the same I think. Care to add in any measurements with proof?

Please, if it's so logically simple, show me the reasons why Duran is BIGGER than JCC?

I don't care if Duran fought at HW, show me how Duran is bigger naturally than JCC. JCC now is probaly a HW. Bigger when both were LW fighters??

Show me how when both were 20/21/22 where Duran had this size advantage?

Or, are you going to say "Duran fought at MW, so that means he is bigger." Well, yes, weighing MW and JCC weighing LW, he is bigger. Duh!
Show me how Duran is bigger than JCC when both were fighting as 130-135 lb fighters.

And, remember, Paul did say that one reason Chavez beats Duran is because on fight night he would be bigger, old vs new rules

Suddenly now, when both weigh together, are you saying it goes from Chavez being bigger, to Duran being bigger?

And, looking deeper, by Paul's logic, JCC pre 1983 would have started his career aged 19/20 as a true LW.

He started his first fight weighing LW remeber, aged 20 or so.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Well, if it's obvious, why not put that in. You made the match. State that it's to be made with same rules.

Now, you are saying Duran is bigger. Show me how.. Show me the measurements to back up these claims.
At least I provide ages, timelines, heights etc.

Please, if it's so logically simple, show me the reasons why Duran is BIGGER than JCC?

I don't care if Duran fought at HW, show me how Duran is bigger naturally than JCC. JCC now is probaly a HW. Bigger when both were LW fighters??

Show me how when both were 20/21/22 where Duran had this size advantage?

Or, are you going to say "Duran fought at MW, so that means he is bigger." Well, yes, weighing MW and JCC weighing LW, he is bigger. Duh!
Show me how Duran is bigger than JCC when both were fighting as 130-135 lb fighters.

And, remember, Paul did say that one reason Chavez beats Duran is because on fight night he would be bigger, old vs new rules

Suddenly now, when both weigh together, are you saying it goes from Chavez being bigger, to Duran being bigger?

And, looking deeper, by Paul's logic, JCC pre 1983 would have started his acreer aged 19/20 as a true LW.

He started his first fight weighing LW remeber, aged 20 or so.

Another pointless reply...I'm not going to trawl thru the net to find measurments to prove something that is obvious if you study the fights!

the point about duran fighting at MW was that duran had the naturall bigger body and it allowed to him win titles at much higher weights than chavez did....its quite a simple point and i don't know how you dont get it once again

tryingmybestt

[QUOTE=walshb;
What I was implying was that the nature of the victory would resemble the Taylor-JCC fight, in that Duran would be clearly ahead, too fast, BUT, also hitting a lot heavier than Taylor. Landing heavier shots throughout.[/QUOTE]


the fight would not resemble the taylor fight....taylore circles chavez for much of the fight and stepped in with fast combo's and then circled again

duran v chavez would be fought in a phone booth in the corner of the ring, neither man taking a backward step!

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

the fight would not resemble the taylor fight....taylore circles chavez for much of the fight and stepped in with fast combo's and then circled again

duran v chavez would be fought in a phone booth in the corner of the ring, neither man taking a backward step!

Phone booth or not, he wins.

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

Another pointless reply...I'm not going to trawl thru the net to find measurments to prove something that is obvious if you study the fights!

the point about duran fighting at MW was that duran had the naturall bigger body and it allowed to him win titles at much higher weights than chavez did....its quite a simple point and i don't know how you dont get it once again

Ok, so stick by what your eyes tell you, is that how it is? No measurements, figures etc. You are basing this on the fact that Duran fought as a blown UP LW in the MW division?

Duran was bigger, because his torso was, legs thicker etc? That it....?

Bit lame.

Duran had the naturally bigger body? That is so vague when you give no proof whatsoever, apart from saying Duran gained weight and fought at MW.

Many fighters thru history could have gained weight, and fought in divisions clearly not for them. Does that mean they too were then naturally bigger than those in their divisions who decided NOT to move up?

PBF, is he naturally bigger than Corrales? Floyd is a WW, according to the weights. Corraless didn't venture that high, did he?

All I asked was for something solid to back it up. Not my fault you cannot privide it.

How about Toney moving to HW, and Nunn, Eubank, Watson etc NOT, does that mean Toney was naturally bigger?

Because, that is the reason you seem to be left with as regards Duran. He moved to MW, hence he was always naturally bigger. I do not but that at all.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Phone booth or not, he wins.

I already stated i favoured duran but i disagreed with the rest of your points

its a very close call, for me duran is a slight favourite but i wouldnt argue with someone saying chavez is a slight favourite....

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Ok, so stick by what your eyes tell you, is that how it is? No measurements, figures etc. You are basing this on the fact that Duran fought as a blown UP LW in the MW division?

Duran was bigger, because his torso was, legs thicker etc? That it....?

Bit lame.

Duran had the naturally bigger body? That is so vague when you give no proof whatsoever, apart from saying Duran gained weight and fought at MW.

Many fighters thru history could have gained weight, and fought in divisions clearly not for them. Does that mean they too were then naturally bigger than those in their divisions whon decided NOT to move up?

PBF, is he naturally bigger than Corrales? Floyd is a WW, according to the weights. Corraless didn't venture that high, did he?

this is not a court of law where we have to prove everything....this is my opinon

your saying a blown up LW beat a very good MW like Barkley....RIDICulous point again.....duran was strong at the weight......chavez was bullied by de la hoya and tszyu at light welter....similar age to duran at MW.....

I think it's fair to say duran was naturally bigger based on using ones EYESIGHT !

actually corrales last fights were at WW !! another bogus reply im afraid

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

this is not a court of law where we have to prove everything....this is my opinon

your saying a blown up LW beat a very good MW like Barkley....RIDICulous point again.....duran was strong at the weight......chavez was bullied by de la hoya and tszyu at light welter....similar age to duran at MW.....

I think it's fair to say duran was naturally bigger based on using ones EYESIGHT !

actually corrales last fights were at WW !! another bogus reply im afraid

I asked if Corrales ever fought at WW, asked....

So, leave it there. Duran beat Barkley at MW, fought at MW. That is your reason.

Does this reason apply to other fighters like Toney who moved to LH-CW-HW?

Is he naturally bigger than Benn, Eubank, Watson, Calzaghe, Kessler etc??

Fact is that they both fought at an early age at similar weight. Height, weight, reach are almost identical, and provable. You can prove nothing, juts a hunch. Fair enough, that is your right.

We shouldn't be debating so hard anyway. I agree, of course it is possible to use your eyesight to make a claim.

My issue is when someone is so certain, and almost states it as fact. It is NOT fact.

And, me personally never saw Duran as a naturally bigger man than JCC. I want a good bit more than "He fought as a MW," before I would accept that.

Whether you like it or not, Duran was never a true MW fighter, never. Yes, some say he was a blown up LW. Fact is, he was much more a LW than a MW.

Ideally I think Duran was maybe going to be his best as a 140 lb fighter. Just a hunch. Chavez at his best was 135 or 140.

Duran I think pretty much bypassed 140 lbs to fight Ray, again, many saw that as a blown up LW meeting a natural WW.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

I asked if Corrales ever foght at WW, asked....

So, leave it there. Duran beat Barkley at MW, fought at MW. That is your reason.

Does this reason apply to other fighters like Toney who moved to LH-CW-HW?

Is he naturally bigger than Benn, Eubank, Watson, Calzaghe, Kessler etc??

Fact is that they both fought at an early age at similar weight. Height, weight, reach are almost identical, and provable. You can prove nothing, juts a hunch. Fair enough, that is your right.

We shouldn't be debating so hard anyway. I agree, of course it is possible to use your eyesight to make a claim.

My issue is when someone is so certain, and almost states it as fact. It is NOT fact.

And, me personally never saw Duran as a naturally bigger man than JCC. I want a good bit more than "He fought as a MW," before I would accept that.

ONce again a silly post

You don't think i can use my eyesight to compare who was bigger and instead i need some documentary evidence??

on that basis how do you prove speed, chin, power, stamina, heart etc. when you are making comparisons....WHERE IS YOUR DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE THAT YOU DEMAND FROM ME TO JUSTIFY MY OPINION??

never a true middleweight>??....he won a MW title and beat barkley....!! he was a good MW

i did not say my only reasoning that he was naturally bigger was that he fought at MW....i also said he looked bigger....his legs look much thicker and also his chest and back etc.

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

ONce again a silly post

You don't think i can use my eyesight to compare who was bigger and instead i need some documentary evidence??
??

Read my post, before jumping in all hot and heavy.

I said: I agree, of course it is possible to use your eyesight to make a claim.

Also: My issue is when someone is so certain, and almost states it as fact. It is NOT fact

You are basing it off eyesight and Duran fought at MW......

Ok, my eyesight says JCC is naturally bigger; see how messy this can get.

Now, I wouldn't dare state it as fact, nor would I, like you, criticise someone for questioning it or disagreeing with the claim

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Read my post, before jumping in all hot and heavy.

I said: I agree, of course it is possible to use your eyesight to make a claim.

Also: My issue is when someone is so certain, and almost states it as fact. It is NOT fact

i'm not hot n heavy lol

once again it was my opinion and i explained my opinion and reasoning....

also i never said was huge difference in weight....i said slight difference.......maybe a couple of pounds but i think they were so evenly matched that this could have swung it durans way

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

i'm not hot n heavy lol

once again it was my opinion and i explained my opinion and reasoning....

And I simply asked questions and looked for good back up , and then you reply with "silly this, and silly that, and "ridiculous."

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

also i never said was huge difference in weight....i said slight difference.......maybe a couple of pounds but i think they were so evenly matched that this could have swung it durans way

Yes, I did not this and was meant to say it, so really, no harm done. Maybe I am too precise, my bad

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Yes, I did not this and was meant to say it, so really, no harm done. Maybe I am too precise, my bad

nothing like a good debate about the best sport in the world

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

And I simply asked questions and looked for good back up , and then you reply with "silly this, and silly that, and "ridiculous."

you made statements ....you also made contradictions.....

i used silly and ridiculous because thats what they were

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

you made statements ....you also made contradictions.....

i used silly and ridiculous because thats what they were

Prove it.

makl

tryingmybestt wrote: »

ONce again a silly post
.

wtf?