Wild Boar. Invasive species or not?

ronannee

Below is an article from RTE News today

The Irish Wildlife Trust says it objects to the current classification of wild boar as an invasive species in Ireland.
It follows a number of sightings of the animal here in recent years.
These are thought to have been illegally released, possibly for the purpose of hunting.
Last month, a wild boar was reported to have been trapped and killed in the Slieve Bloom Mountains.
Wild boar became extinct in Ireland in pre-historic times, due to overhunting and deforestation.
The IWT says the animal's current "invasive" classification "does not fit the definition of an invasive species as laid out by the UN Convention on Biological Diversity (CBD).
"We feel that this move confuses members of the public about what an invasive species actually is, making it more difficult to raise awareness about the threats from actual invasives, such as grey squirrel, rhododendron and zebra mussel," the statement said.
Invasive Species Ireland lists wild boar as one of its "most unwanted" invasive species, as they are "known to damage crops, gardens, amenity areas as well as potentially spreading disease".
The IWT says if a population of wild boar is now established in Ireland, then it would like a study to be conducted on the "purity of animals", genetic origin, disease status and habitat availability for such a population.


What are your thoughts?

Regards Ronan:)

Galwayguy35

ronannee wrote: »

Below is an article from RTE News today

The Irish Wildlife Trust says it objects to the current classification of wild boar as an invasive species in Ireland.
It follows a number of sightings of the animal here in recent years.
These are thought to have been illegally released, possibly for the purpose of hunting.
Last month, a wild boar was reported to have been trapped and killed in the Slieve Bloom Mountains.
Wild boar became extinct in Ireland in pre-historic times, due to overhunting and deforestation.
The IWT says the animal's current "invasive" classification "does not fit the definition of an invasive species as laid out by the UN Convention on Biological Diversity (CBD).
"We feel that this move confuses members of the public about what an invasive species actually is, making it more difficult to raise awareness about the threats from actual invasives, such as grey squirrel, rhododendron and zebra mussel," the statement said.
Invasive Species Ireland lists wild boar as one of its "most unwanted" invasive species, as they are "known to damage crops, gardens, amenity areas as well as potentially spreading disease".
The IWT says if a population of wild boar is now established in Ireland, then it would like a study to be conducted on the "purity of animals", genetic origin, disease status and habitat availability for such a population.


What are your thoughts?

Regards Ronan:)

Well they lived here before and probably still would have thrived if man didnt kill them off and destroy their forests.

Double Barrel

This should be interesting.

Longranger

If this is going to turn into an animal rights debate please take it elsewhere. I know DB is a hunter but do ye guys shoot or hunt, because the last thing we need is more anti-hunting trolling. I don't want to offend anyone but we don't want another slagging session here. We've put up with enough sh!te lately..

Birdnuts

Longranger wrote: »

If this is going to turn into an animal rights debate please take it elsewhere. I know DB is a hunter but do ye guys shoot or hunt, because the last thing we need is more anti-hunting trolling. I don't want to offended anyone but we don't want another slagging session here. We've put up with enough sh!te lately..

I would agree - this thread should probably be in a different forum(Zoology maybe??),we've had more then enough threads on the subject here in any case, over to you mods!!

fodda

The deforestation of Ireland was caused by the industrial revolution and grazing around the 1700's same as in the rest of Europe.........not by Fred Flintstone and Barney Rubble with a stone axe thousands of years earlier............Are you sure this report is correct?


Also the little nudge towards hunting..........People have been farming them for their meat for a number of years........I know this may be shocking.......but they couldnt have escaped could they?

Grizzly 45

Or been "liberated from the death camps of animal abusers" or some other such drivel from, and by the antis??:rolleyes:

robp

I think this is an important topic and actually have little to do with animal rights. There seems to be a lot of confusion as to when wild boar disappeared from our woodlands in the first place.
There is no consensus when the wild boar died out. A date of 5600 years ago to about 500 years ago by others. Their bones are so similar to domestic pigs its not usually possible to distinguish them.

Considering the Brown Bear survived to about 3000 or even 1500 years ago mere wild boar probably were here far longer than some newspaper are suggesting. Heavy hunting and interbreeding with domestic animals might have been a feature of its decline. Its likely than its genes only fully disappeared with the extinction of native Irish pig breeds like the greyhound pig in 19th century.

Anyway the important topic is whether these animals have a future here? Is there sufficient space in countryside presently for them? Also what is the feeling amongst the farming community?

johngalway

robp wrote: »

Also what is the feeling amongst the farming community?

I posted a video from Australia in another WB thread where WB had ripped out the stomachs of young lambs just to get at the milk. So, as a sheep farmer I wouldn't welcome them, except with fast moving lead as they are quite tasty.

declan1980

robp wrote: »

I think this is an important topic and actually have little to do with animal rights. There seems to be a lot of confusion as to when wild boar disappeared from our woodlands in the first place.
There is no consensus when the wild boar died out. A date of 5600 years ago to about 500 years ago by others. Their bones are so similar to domestic pigs its not usually possible to distinguish them.

Considering the Brown Bear survived to about 3000 or even 1500 years ago mere wild boar probably were here far longer than some newspaper are suggesting. Heavy hunting and interbreeding with domestic animals might have been a feature of its decline. Its likely than its genes only fully disappeared with the extinction of native Irish pig breeds like the greyhound pig in 19th century.

Anyway the important topic is whether these animals have a future here? Is there sufficient space in countryside presently for them? Also what is the feeling amongst the farming community?

Well as a member of the farming community, I personally wouldn't welcome the reintroduction of wild boar. All farmers need what land they have to earn a living, and having wild boar running around ploughing up grassland or tillage would be counter productive to that. I've seen wild boar farms and the fields were destroyed from them rooting and digging

Riskymove

Personally, the issue is whether or not they are an invasive species

the fact that they were once native means that they are not an 'alien' species

but do they invade other species habitats and cause damage to them etc? That's they key for me

If its simply about saying that something was here before and therefore should be introduced, then why not wolves, bears etc? where do you stop?

fodda

The reason the fields are ploughed up declan is because the boar or pigs are free ranging outside in part of their natural environment, instead of being kept on slatted concrete floors inside never seeing daylight or a blade of grass.

There is a big demand now for free range pork and for animals to be kept naturally instead of forcing animals to live in confined spaces which in turn was forced on the farmer by the publics demand for cheap meat and other products.

Some farmers prefer to keep animals as naturally as possible and to go after that market. In the UK wild boar are kept in woodland and bred with Tamworths (another outside domestic pig) to produce what is called "Iron age Pork"............This is being done in Ireland aswell but i am not sure it is all that popular here or is a very niche market.

As regards who is for or who is against..........sheep farmers do not want foxes but not all foxes attack lambs or if they do it is only at relatively a few weeks of the year, but this results in most foxes being culled. At the same time foxes keep in check rabbits, hares, rats , mice and other which a crop farmer doesnt want and when the foxes are removed the hares, rabbits and other breed like mad and have a free for all...............Basically the world is not a perfect place.

fodda

Also it would be better if the actual report was read first by the IWT.

http://iwt.ie/2012/01/iwt-position-on-wild-boar-in-ireland/

It wasn't me!

The phrase "in historical times" leaves me with a highly inflamed dumbass detector.

Grizzly 45

fodda wrote: »

Also it would be better if the actual report was read first by the IWT.

http://iwt.ie/2012/01/iwt-position-on-wild-boar-in-ireland/

As usaual for a NGB,Quango or whatever.
WE want to get involved to justify our salaries and only WE are qualified to make judgements on suitability,ad WE want the boar to be off the invasive species list and WE are the only ones who should be involved in releasing or not of WB.

Invasive,alien or whatever..I think no matter what if they get established here you will find crop damage as being one of the problems,and more than likely more urban invasion of WB than actual farmland.[See Berlins problem with them.] Also,because they are prolific breeders,like once a year,not like rats as some people are making out every three months:rolleyes::rolleyes:
Their mortality rate will be low here,due to no doubt the top predators in Ireland[US:pac:] fooling around and debating ,bickering,and argueing .That they will establish here pretty quickly..
So time is about now to decide do we want them here or not.

robp

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

As usaual for a NGB,Quango or whatever.
WE want to get involved to justify our salaries and only WE are qualified to make judgements on suitability,ad WE want the boar to be off the invasive species list and WE are the only ones who should be involved in releasing or not of WB.

In fairness to the IWT, they are a CHARITY with three members of staff. Its imperative that an independent body representing conservation for 33 years gives its opinion. Other interest groups will have their say but its worth at least listening to people who bother to offer their time for a charity.

declan1980

fodda wrote: »

The reason the fields are ploughed up declan is because the boar or pigs are free ranging outside in part of their natural environment, instead of being kept on slatted concrete floors inside never seeing daylight or a blade of grass.

There is a big demand now for free range pork and for animals to be kept naturally instead of forcing animals to live in confined spaces which in turn was forced on the farmer by the publics demand for cheap meat and other products.

Some farmers prefer to keep animals as naturally as possible and to go after that market. In the UK wild boar are kept in woodland and bred with Tamworths (another outside domestic pig) to produce what is called "Iron age Pork"............This is being done in Ireland aswell but i am not sure it is all that popular here or is a very niche market.

As regards who is for or who is against..........sheep farmers do not want foxes but not all foxes attack lambs or if they do it is only at relatively a few weeks of the year, but this results in most foxes being culled. At the same time foxes keep in check rabbits, hares, rats , mice and other which a crop farmer doesnt want and when the foxes are removed the hares, rabbits and other breed like mad and have a free for all...............Basically the world is not a perfect place.

I know that's why the fields I saw them in were ploughed up and if that's what the owner wants to do that's fine, but I was speaking from my own perspective as a dairy farmer, and as one I would not like to see a population of wild boar coming onto my land and tearing the ****e out of the place, not to mention the possibility of the spread of disease by wandering pigs.
robp asked a question of how the farming community felt, and as a farmer I gave my opinion.

Grizzly 45

robp wrote: »

In fairness to the IWT, they are a CHARITY with three members of staff. Its imperative that an independent body representing conservation for 33 years gives its opinion. Other interest groups will have their say but its worth at least listening to people who bother to offer their time for a charity.

Can I ask WHY are they coming out on this issue now???
This has been pretty much rumoured,talked about and chewed over in the shooting and nature/conservation community for about the last ten years.
Also,why the silences on other aspects of wildlife here?There is plenty that could be commented on but IWT stayed remarkably silent.

Also,a charity doesnt imply any better knowledge on a subject than a lay body.After Gun Control Network Uk is a charity,but we dont exactly pay their views much attention here either.:)

fodda

declan1980 wrote: »

I know that's why the fields I saw them in were ploughed up and if that's what the owner wants to do that's fine, but I was speaking from my own perspective as a dairy farmer, and as one I would not like to see a population of wild boar coming onto my land and tearing the ****e out of the place, not to mention the possibility of the spread of disease by wandering pigs.
robp asked a question of how the farming community felt, and as a farmer I gave my opinion.

Oh i see sorry misunderstood.

But spreading disease by wandering pigs? ...... If there isnt any disease there to begin with then they could only catch a disease from farmed pigs, so any wild pigs/boar arent the problem are they?

declan1980

fodda wrote: »

Oh i see sorry misunderstood.

But spreading disease by wandering pigs? ...... If there isnt any disease there to begin with then they could only catch a disease from farmed pigs, so any wild pigs/boar arent the problem are they?

I'm not talking about disease in pigs. I'm talking about the potential for WB to act as a vector for diseases that affect livestock. If they travel from one farm to another there is the possibility of them spreading diseases like BVD or IBR by foraging in the same areas as infected livestock and moving to an uninfected farm. Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but if badgers and foxes can spread TB, then any wild animal potentially can. And before anyone says foxes don't spread TB, a member of our gun club snares badgers for the dep of agriculture for testing, and any foxes he snares have to be tested too. He said at a recent meeting that 5% of the foxes tested were carrying TB, and it's also been proven that they can spread neospora which causes massive abortions in cattle

fodda

declan1980 wrote: »

I'm not talking about disease in pigs. I'm talking about the potential for WB to act as a vector for diseases that affect livestock. If they travel from one farm to another there is the possibility of them spreading diseases like BVD or IBR by foraging in the same areas as infected livestock and moving to an uninfected farm. Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but if badgers and foxes can spread TB, then any wild animal potentially can. And before anyone says foxes don't spread TB, a member of our gun club snares badgers for the dep of agriculture for testing, and any foxes he snares have to be tested too. He said at a recent meeting that 5% of the foxes tested were carrying TB, and it's also been proven that they can spread neospora which causes massive abortions in cattle

As far as i know any warm bloodied animal can be affected and transmit TB but there seems to be a lot of people on the gravy train.

I understand what you mean about other diseases but you cant wipe out the entire wild life of a country just because you are a farmer and they may affect you in some way (I know that isnt what you mean).

4gun

declan1980 wrote: »

I know that's why the fields I saw them in were ploughed up and if that's what the owner wants to do that's fine, but I was speaking from my own perspective as a dairy farmer, and as one I would not like to see a population of wild boar coming onto my land and tearing the ****e out of the place, not to mention the possibility of the spread of disease by wandering pigs.
robp asked a question of how the farming community felt, and as a farmer I gave my opinion.

now give your opinion as a hunter
one more species to lamp and you can eat this one with cabbage

4gun

I can imagine the damage they would do to crops like beet and potatoes if a few got at it, they dont appear to be that tall so areas where there is heavy cover they'd be hard to see,
we might all thing it well and good that they are here but Declan makes some valid points over concerns that livestock farmers might have.

MacraPat

Lads I can't believe there are people trying to justify the boar's presence. The people who have released these animals clearly have their heads up their ar*es when it comes to ecology. The problem with the boar is not whether they inhabited Ireland before. They haven't inhabited an Ireland like this modern day one before. Sure, those boar living wild at the moment will thrive , it's in boar's nature to do so. Their populations are on a crash collision course with all that makes up modern rural Ireland.

The problem is simply habitat.
We currently do not have a habitat where the boar are so content that there is no risk of them leaving to cause damage. Boar thrive best in deciduous woodlands. When Ireland was thronged with ancient oak woodlands with an understorey of ash and hazel there were enough acorns, nuts and shrubbery to sustain them. Ireland's forestry makes up approx 9% of it's area. Most of this is Sitka and other non-native conifers, offering absolutely no habitat value for Sus Scrofa . It's simply not fair on the farmers or the animals involved to ignore the inevitable conflicts when the boar population grows to a point where their current hideyholes become to small and sounders will raid surrounding livestock/grassland/tillage areas.

What we would need would be multiple natural, established woodlands dotted around the country each one probably over a 100 acres in size connected in a network by wildlife corridors. I can't personally see that coming.

It may sound like a paradox but I believe Wild Boar are NATIVE to Ireland however they DO NOT BELONG.

lofty95

well said how bad is the problem in the uk where they certainly have alot more suitable habitat

MacraPat wrote: »

Lads I can't believe there are people trying to justify are trying the boars presence. The people who have released these animals clearly have their heads up their ar*es when it comes to ecology. The problem with the boar is not whether they inhabited Ireland before. They haven't inhabited an Ireland like this modern day one before. Sure, those boar living wild at the moment will thrive , it's in boar's nature to do so. The their populations are on a crash collision course with all that makes up modern rural Ireland.

The problem is simply habitat.
We currently do not have a habitat where the boar are so content that there is no risk of them leaving to cause damage. Boar thrive best in deciduous woodlands. When Ireland was thronged with ancient oak woodlands with an understorey of ash and hazel there were enough acorns, nuts and shrubbery to sustain them. Ireland's forestry makes up approx 9% of it's area. Most of this is Sitka and other non-native conifers, offering absolutely no habitat value for Sus Scrofa . It's simply not fair on the farmers or the animals involved to ignore the inevitable conflicts when the boar population grows to a point where their current hideyholes become to small and sounders will raid surrounding livestock/grassland/tillage areas.

What we would need would be multiple natural, established woodlands dotted around the country each one probably over a 100 acres in size connected in a network by wildlife corridors. I can't personally see that coming.

It may sound like a paradox but I believe Wild Boar are NATIVE to Ireland however they DO NOT BELONG.

CJhaughey

robp wrote: »

In fairness to the IWT, they are a CHARITY with three members of staff. Its imperative that an independent body representing conservation for 33 years gives its opinion. Other interest groups will have their say but its worth at least listening to people who bother to offer their time for a charity.

Plenty of money is gathered for Charities in Ireland, actually its a bit of an industry here..
Not saying anything about the IWT in particular but charities in general are a bit of a grey area.
IWT has the right just like anyone else to make a submission but their opinion is worth no more or less than anyone elses.

Birdnuts

robp wrote: »

I think this is an important topic and actually have little to do with animal rights. There seems to be a lot of confusion as to when wild boar disappeared from our woodlands in the first place.
There is no consensus when the wild boar died out. A date of 5600 years ago to about 500 years ago by others. Their bones are so similar to domestic pigs its not usually possible to distinguish them.

?

Indeed - some even doubt whether they ever made it here at all after the last ice-age(we were cut off from Europe alot sooner then Britain), and that any remains found are simply old breed domestic pigs and/or feral hogs brought to the island by early farmers. In any case some sort of genetic testing needs to be done on any specimens that are being shot to see what we are really dealing with - whether it be Wild Boar, Wild Boar hybrids or simply feral hogs.

4200fps

Here's a interesting read all about our friend http://www.treesforlife.org.uk/forest/species/wildboar.html

Birdnuts

declan1980 wrote: »

I'm not talking about disease in pigs. I'm talking about the potential for WB to act as a vector for diseases that affect livestock. If they travel from one farm to another there is the possibility of them spreading diseases like BVD or IBR by foraging in the same areas as infected livestock and moving to an uninfected farm. Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but if badgers and foxes can spread TB, then any wild animal potentially can. And before anyone says foxes don't spread TB, a member of our gun club snares badgers for the dep of agriculture for testing, and any foxes he snares have to be tested too. He said at a recent meeting that 5% of the foxes tested were carrying TB, and it's also been proven that they can spread neospora which causes massive abortions in cattle

Deer can carry TB too and some suspect there are more important as vectors in cattle then the likes of badgers etc. - I remember reading years ago that it was one of the reasons why the grazing of cattle was stopped in the Phoenix park back in the late 80's. In any case it appears cattle to cattle tranmission is probably the most important factor in many areas.

323

They were native once, which is more than can be said for Sika deer.

landkeeper

it's all a moot point anyway as from what i can tell none of them are 'wild boar' in the real sense of the word but hybrids with domestic piggy blood in them
birdnuts the offaly badger projects would not support your theory on cattle to cattle transmission afaik that shows that wildlife plays a major part in the situation

fodda

landkeeper wrote: »

it's all a moot point anyway as from what i can tell none of them are 'wild boar' in the real sense of the word but hybrids with domestic piggy blood in them
birdnuts the offaly badger projects would not support your theory on cattle to cattle transmission afaik that shows that wildlife plays a major part in the situation

But then there are just as many other reports/projects which do support cattle to cattle projects and wildlife are only part to blame.

Very simple solution anyway and far cheaper.........dont eat eat beef or milk then any kind of bovine TB is no threat to humans and so all the money will be taken out of it and we will be all healthier as a result.:)

Back to subject what possible disease can pigs as a whole pass on to sheep, cattle or poultry or of course other pigs......IF there is no disease present in the wild or even the country as is of present?

juice1304

323 wrote: »

They were native once, which is more than can be said for Sika deer.

So were brown bear and wolves. Also all modern polar bears can trace their roots back to ireland as during the last ice age a polar bear and one of our Native bears got it on. So i don't think just because they were here once upon a time before they should be now. Our landscape has changed and most of the forests here are not native trees everything is different. It's to big of a risk i think.

Birdnuts

landkeeper wrote: »

birdnuts the offaly badger projects would not support your theory on cattle to cattle transmission afaik that shows that wildlife plays a major part in the situation

Oh I don't doubt that - which is why I mentioned deer. I was referring more to a recent study in the UK which highlighed cattle to cattle transmission in certain areas.

PS: The fact that nearly all milk is pasteurised nowadays more or less elimates the risk of TB in humans coming from this source anyways.

fodda

Birdnuts wrote: »

Oh I don't doubt that - which is why I mentioned deer. I was referring more to a recent study in the UK which highlighed cattle to cattle transmission in certain areas.

PS: The fact that nearly all milk is pasteurised nowadays more or less elimates the risk of TB in humans coming from this source anyways.

What about meat?

Birdnuts

fodda wrote: »

What about meat?

Not sure about this - depends I suppose on how the carcass is prepared I guess. I assume such carcasses wouldn't be allowed into the human foodchain anyways.

PS: In any case hopefully those vaccine trials in the UK to deal with TB in wild mammals will settle this issue to everyones satifaction once and for all within the next decade or so

landkeeper

Birdnuts wrote: »

PS: In any case hopefully those vaccine trials in the UK to deal with TB in wild mammals will settle this issue to everyones satifaction once and for all within the next decade or so

be too late round here for mr broc what the deptment of ag have got away with is scandalous with their snaring and erad programs :mad::mad::mad::mad:

robp

There certainly is an interesting mix of views here. The principal concern seems to be a lack of native woodland.
While on the topic, space for large game would not be the only thing that would improve with more native woodland. Yet we continue to give over vast tracts of land to 80% conifer conifer. There are parts of the world with 100% native broadleaf in commerial foresty. We are missing the boat imho. I know those wild boars would agree with me on this.

4gun

juice1304 wrote: »

So were brown bear and wolves. Also all modern polar bears can trace their roots back to ireland as during the last ice age a polar bear and one of our Native bears got it on. So i don't think just because they were here once upon a time before they should be now. Our landscape has changed and most of the forests here are not native trees everything is different. It's to big of a risk i think.

I'd be up for a reintroduction programme of both bear and wolves, the more huniting the better
see how many Antis we'd have in the country then:D

CJhaughey

This place is too small to support any viable population of wild pigs.
Any good ground where pigs would like to hang out and feed is owned by someone that wouldn't want the mess that they leave.
Same in the UK, its just too populated.
If you look at where wild pigs survive its places that have a lot of truly wild country , not just the odd national park here and there but acres of bush or scrub or land that pigs can go and hide away.
Once a mob of pigs comes to a suitable size and starts ripping up farmers fields and eating lambs then they won't be around for long thats for sure, no matter how worthy they might be as a re-introduction.
Just look at Raptors and imagine how a much more destructive animal would be greeted...
I would like to see a sustainable wild pig population but it ain't going to happen.

Grizzly 45

Uhmm,not quite CJ I mean they survive in countries in Europe that have no truly wild parts anymore.Apart from extreme Alpine reigons they are found in Germany ,Belguim and Holland,Spain and France.Although the last two do still have wild regions ..Somwhat!Forestry in Germany is hardly wild anymore,its commercial,and from I see of it a good mix of everything in it.Conifer blocks,next to open decidious,etc.
Fact remains the damage they will do ,and until that is addressed no one will really want them here.

Spunk84

4gun wrote: »

I'd be up for a reintroduction programme of both bear and wolves, the more huniting the better
see how many Antis we'd have in the country then:D

wasnt there something awhile back that stated all polar bears descended from Irish bears?

Birdnuts

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Uhmm,not quite CJ I mean they survive in countries in Europe that have no truly wild parts anymore.Apart from extreme Alpine reigons they are found in Germany ,Belguim and Holland,Spain and France.Although the last two do still have wild regions ..Somwhat!Forestry in Germany is hardly wild anymore,its commercial,and from I see of it a good mix of everything in it.Conifer blocks,next to open decidious,etc.
Fact remains the damage they will do ,and until that is addressed no one will really want them here.

Whats the storey in the UK Grizz?? - they seem to be well estaiblished in places like the Forest of Dean and the New Forest etc. Have they come into much conflict outside these areas??. What is happening in more heavily farmed areas for example?? - I assume landowners/farmers/hunters can shoot them on sight!!

Grizzly 45

Dunno...Am not much up on the UK situation.

landkeeper

it's more a question of land parcel size here, the land is too fragmented too many different land owners with different opinions , you might have a chance reintroducing them into somewhere like the national parks but into normal everyday ireland good luck

Birdnuts

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Dunno...Am not much up on the UK situation.

Just had a quick look at a few relevant UK websites - it appears they are treated the same as mink, fox, grey crow etc. ie. can be legally trapped/shot all year round. Though some are looking to give it "Game" status with a season similiar to deer etc.

4gun

Spunk84 wrote: »

wasnt there something awhile back that stated all polar bears descended from Irish bears?

yeah their greatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreat .......
greatgreatgreatgreatgreat granny was a paddy:D

from roscommon