Canine Hip Dysplasia - Advice?

Taltos

Hi all

just spotted another thread here on car ramps which put me thinking and hence this thread.

We have two gorgeous large breed dogs - however one small issue is when they were being spayed we took the precautionary step of getting their hips x-rayed due to the prevalence of hip dysplasia in their breed.

Unfortunately both our girls were found at 4 monts (I think) to have hip dysplasia to varying degrees in both of their hind legs. Shortly after this the fun and games really began with the symptoms showing up very fast - even so far as to an incident where one of the girls hips popped out briefly one day.

As you can imagine this was our worst nightmare but we have a great vet and got some excellent advice from a team of people who take care of our dogs.

So - here are some of the things we are doing - but I am now wondering if others in a similar position have tips or advice that could further help us help them?

1. Food supplements - we add oils and a powder with clondroiten (?) to each of their meals.
2. Diet - we are managing their diet very closely, they hover in and around their ideal weight and when over are only slightly over.
2. Car ramp - to stop them jumping in and out we have been using a car ramp for quite a while now, at one point we even used a small stool (don't laugh).
3. Anti-inflammatories - as above we have a great vet and as part of the treatment we have on hand anti-inflamms for the really bad days or to head one off.
4. Walks - limited to one a day, max 30 minutes. Where I have goine over that one in particular suffered huge soreness for a few days afterwards, last time I let my guard down.
5. Sufficient rest days - one or two days a week - depending on activities (see below) we don't walk them, today for example both are sleeping. They will play outside a bit later but are going to spend most of their day sleeping.
6. Hydrotherapy - thanks to advice and a recommendation from our groomer we sought out a hydrotherapist in Dublin - Sharpwells. Started here soon after the really bad hip experience. I'll be honest, this was a struggle as both are big and at first both hated the water. It's been I think 10 months now of weekly visits but this is really working for them, muscle definition has really improved and provided I consistently bring them they are now great in the pool - only issue is getting them out of the car in the evening - they just want to sleep.

I am not really sure what else we could be doing here - just hoping others may have some tips we have missed.
Our vet does think hip replacements will be necessary for both - but is hopeful if we can manage their condition we can make it to 4 or 5 years before that is needed.

Between the oils, food, exercise and swimming I can see a definite improvement, think with the swimming we started to see a change after 3 weeks, just wish we could get a pool big enough ourselves . Either way since that bad experience we have not had a repeat, so fingers crossed we stay this way.

Have tried to bring them in swimming into the sea but apart from one swimming just once for 10 seconds that does not seem like it will pan out, though one does love playing in the surf teasing the other who is too scared to go down...

Anyway - thanks for reading - sorry for the length.

BrensBenz

Wow! You’re certainly doing your best for your pets! They’ve fallen on their feet!
Has your vet or others indicated their opinion on possible causes of the hip problems? I know that many of the larger breeds are susceptible but I believe that accelerated breeding can be the root cause. Dogs did not evolve with hip dysplasia and your dogs were showing symptoms at a very young age! Are they litter-mates?Were there any signs of pup farming at the kennels? Has the breeder any information?

Taltos

BrensBenz wrote: »

Wow! You’re certainly doing your best for your pets! They’ve fallen on their feet!
Has your vet or others indicated their opinion on possible causes of the hip problems? I know that many of the larger breeds are susceptible but I believe that accelerated breeding can be the root cause. Dogs did not evolve with hip dysplasia and your dogs were showing symptoms at a very young age! Are they litter-mates?Were there any signs of pup farming at the kennels? Has the breeder any information?

Cheers - yup we have reviewed the history with the vet.

Mother was bone checked and was clear, not a puppy farm, though it was a farm. This was the breeders first litter.
Unfortunately one of her other dogs got into and mated with the mother - this we believe is the source of the hip dysplasia. They are cross-breeds but both breeds in question are susceptible.

Weird thing was until we got the x-ray there were no symptoms - it only seemed to get bad as they went through the next growth spurt after the spaying...

We have tried to get back in touch with the woman we got them from to warn her but never got any replies. We have been keeping an eye on ads for similar dogs and as yet - now a year later there is no sign of her selling more... So at this point it appears this was her first and last litter. There were 6 pups - so chances are high some of the other owners may have gone after her for costs, we were lucky though, by the time we found out our insurance was valid and see no point in going after her personally for what really appears to be an act of fate - eg her house dog getting into her purebred.

(just re-read that - seriously no pun intended)

Sassy58

I was like you our pup came from a puppy farm (rescued) and we adopted her - when she was going into be spayed I asked our vet to x-ray her as well, because she was showing signs of having trouble with getting her back end up if she had been in her bed for awhile.

They xrayed her, got a call, went down to have a chat to be told they were the worst hips she had ever seen. Her hips just popped in and out all the time. Didn't hold out much hope, we had been told if we could get her through her growth period we might stand a chance. Obviously metacam is given which is not something I wanted to give her daily cause it can cause liver damage etc so we went down the alternative route. Now we do have metacam in the house for when she has a "bad" day.

She did get a course of cartefen (spel) injections. We started her in hydrotherapy with a fantastic girl in Coolock when she was a little over 8 months and we also had accupuncture done on her. We were lucky in that our vet is a ortho specialist and also fully qualified to do accupuncture on animals. It helped her so much. We also got her on to cosequin ds which is a non prescription tablet so can be bought over the internet at a great saving. We have recently started to give her YuMove as well as a supplement.

We sent her xrays over to England to see about hip replacements and our vet also sent them down to Shane Geary down in Cork and he had a look at them. He was concerned that when they replaced one that the other one may not be able to support her and that if we could hold off as long as possible. We will have her 4 years in April and so far *touch wood* she is doing great she has good and bad days when the weather changes but as she is in the house 24/7 it doesn't affect her that much.

We don't walk her on concrete so that lessens the impact on her joints so she is walked in the Phoenix Park on the grass.

One of our other dogs was recently diagnoised with degenerative spinal disease....which I know may scare some people but the care is pretty much the same as a dog with hip dysplasia she is also on cosequin ds and a new tablet that the name has gone out of my head which is an anti-inflammatory and pain management tablet all in one for days she is bad.

We have recently taken on a rottiex pup and I have been watching her play lol getting paranoid now

Taltos

Thanks for that - seems like timelines might be matching up.

What I love about the hydro is that there is no weight on their legs, they are swimming for I guess now 10 to 15 minutes with frequent breaks - all the while supported by the therapist. Our girls are a bit nervous of other folk but they took right to him.

I had not thought of acupuncture though and most of the supplements you listed are new to me so will take the time tonight to review them with my other half - she is great at researching and managing the foods and oils etc.

I think also like you both sets of hips will have to be replaced but hoping we can get through the rest of the growth spurts and to 4 or 5 years before that is necessary. I know that a weekly trip to hydro might seem excessive to some - but having seen the difference it has made I will easily sacrifice a cup or two of coffee each week to get there. OK I usually come out like a drowned rat - but seeing the energy they both have when we get home is hilarious. Last night for example, they both raced around in the dark like loons - got dizzy just from watching, right now though both are sleeping on the couch

Thanks again - this is exactly the type of thing I was hoping for.

Sassy58

The one thing that was stressed to us was that we had to keep her as light as possible while she was growing which meant no treats just her food - we got asked ALOT if we were feeding her at all but the benefits to her now are clear. We did have her on the Hill joint care food for awhile but have now shifted her onto a normal food while keeping the supplements and swimming up.

When we started her she was going to hydro twice a week she was that bad - she was a very nervous dog so we started on the water tread mill so that specific muscles would be worked on rather then just putting her straight into the pool.....now she goes into the pool and loves it with the jets going at her legs to make her work that bit harder.

Our's is the opposite she comes in from hydro and just decks out on the sofa asleep.

But like you after the mortgage and bills paid the dogs get what they need and then we have whats left lol

Wibbs

With a new pup myself I've been reading a lot online and off about hip dysplasia of late(among other things. New parent syndrome ). Like BrensBenz wrote wild dogs(wolves, dingoes even feral domestic dogs) very very rarely suffer with it. One article I read cited research in the US that failed to spot a single case of it in the wild wolf population. Large adult size doesn't seem to be a factor in wild dogs as certain populations of US wolf are very big canids(northern tundra wolves that take down buffalo and the like). Neither it appears does a small gene pool in of itself, as wild dog packs can be quite inbred.

What does seem to be a factor is weight in pups and juveniles. Wild dogs eat less as pups and are lighter and leaner. They're also getting a more balanced diet high in protein and bones. Plus in complete contrast to the adults who can cover 60 miles a day if pushed, the pups stay close to the den for the first year of life. No long walks.

They're also intact, not neutered/spayed. Spaying too young(before at least 6 months) makes the bones grow for longer than they otherwise would. HD is higher in neutered dogs and the younger they're neutered the higher the rate(also increases the rate of ACL injuries and bone cancer). Testosterone signals the bones to stop growing, when absent this signal isn't received. http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html Given the understandable current mantra to neuter all dogs and more so, some vets who seem uninformed and quite happy to neuter at very young ages(pre 6 months) this will very likely increase the incidences of HD in the general population, especially in larger breeds or those more susceptible to it. The first vet I brought my 16 week old pup to suggested castrating him sooner rather than later. IMHO if this was in human medicine it would be thought of as quackery. Needless to say I didn't retain his services.

Wibbs

PS I'd go so far as to legislate(for what good it would do ) against breeding dogs with bad hip scores. I had a german shepherd many years ago. Lovely fella and came from "good lines". His grandfather was a German show winner. I didn't know about HD at the time(no interweb then) and was told his ancestors HD scores were good. Looking back they were not, even though they were considered good lines. His hips started to go at 6 years of age and were bad by 7. In the end he died at 7 and a half of a bad heart, but by that stage his back legs were very bad. Really broke my heart Now I wouldn't touch a pup whose parents had a hip score higher than 10.

While there is rightfully an outcry over puppy farmers, many "good" breeders are also to blame for the genetic defects in various breeds in pursuit of the "standard"(the "porsche back" in German Shepherds just one example, flat faces in boxers etc another). Ditto for perspective owners looking for that standard. Some breeds are a given for genetic problems and that IMHO is so so wrong.

Taltos

Cheers all.

Interesting reading Wibbs, however as the x-ray shows the HD prior to the spaying in this case it does not appear to be a factor. I am not 100% sure if it was 4 mts or 6mts - know it was just before they came into seaon for the first time to reduce risk of certain cancers.

We have always kept their weight down so we are good on that front for the moment. In terms of root cause - who knows - personally I believe it is a side-effect of our manipulation of their breeds. For example if you look back at certain breeds even as little as 40 or 50 years ago they are already quite different in some respects to the traits we are seeing now.

Either way root cause at this point is moot for us. We know both dogs have the issue so all we are trying to do is management and risk limitation to ensure they have a healthy happy and long life. At times I am just relieved the issue was spotted so young, would hate to think through our own ignorance we could have caused more harm by taking them for longer and longer walks.

tk123

Firstly thanks for posting this and for th replies - it's nice to know there's more of us out there!

Hehe my guy has a burst of energy after hydro then flat out - though he only got tired after it when he started swimming with the jets lol for 2 x10 min sessions in a harness to make it harder than the jacket! We're starting back on Saturday and I can't wait to start getting back to normal. It made a HUGE difference after the last op so I'm hoping he'll do better this time as we're starting it sooner this time. He hasn't got HD but has a hock deformity so Shane G straightened his back legs - one 11 weeks ago and the other the year before. In his case it was better to do it young to prevent damage. We do pretty much the same as you guys - a ramp for the car, supplements, keeping his weight down and just monitoring him. He needed pain killers twice after the first op when he over did it and none at all until he was recovering from the surgery in october - the supplements seem to be enough and rest if I think he needs it. We did lots of training - obedience etc which really paid off eg walking on a loose lead so he didn't hurt himself post op and different commands we can put together to use up his energy when he's restricted. It can be tough at times but when you come out the other side it's so worth it. Before the fist op he could only handle 30 min walks, i had to stop leaving him into day care because it was too much for him and he had complications from his gait like split pads, uneven wear on his nails etc. When he was healed up we'd spend 2 hours at Dollymount with him running and swimming- he jumps off the steps into the sea lol, we'd walk for an hour then go to the park for off lead time and he was so much happier and settled. 11 weeks on from round two and we walk for an hour and a half a day, he's starting to stand correctly on the paw and this week he can have some off lead time and a swim at hydro and back to daycare next month to see his friends!!! We also have support from a briliant vet who trusts my judgement (over UCD's) a great team at daycare who accomdate and mind him and a patient hydrotherapist to make our lives a bit easier. I wish he didn't have to go thru it all but I love him and i hope/think I'm doing a good job

BrensBenz

Again, my best wishes and admiration to you both for the care you are taking with your pets’ conditions and reducing their discomfort. I’m sure you receive sufficient thanks from the big soft eyes and wagging tails but, sorry folks, I find this upsetting. Hip dysplasia has been known about for (human) generations but, and I may be wrong, I thought that it was mainly due to breeders artificially breeding muscle and fat “weight” onto a skeleton that could not evolve quickly enough to carry it, resulting in overloaded and damaged joints. A study of dog portraits from previous centuries would suggest that todays sufferers of HD are very hefty versions of their 18th and 19th century ancestors.
If this is true, I can’t help thinking that breeders have ignored it and knowingly allowed it to continue to the stage where pups have difficulty standing up. And yes, I know some breeders have well-deserved halos but Ireland has a poor reputation abroad for unscrupulous puppy farming and fashion breeding.
Your actions are probably the only actions available to dog-owners – treating the symptoms while the cause laughs all the way to the bank by obeying the law of supply and demand. Vented….sorry!
By the way, my long-gone but still missed Bernese Mountain Dog benefitted from hydrotherapy….well, being dragged out to sea by his wet-suited owner. The condition was more muscular than osteo but these workouts really helped cure the dog’s minor limp. Unfortunately, his (ahem) owner didn’t realize that his protests at being brought swimming were based on his specialisation as a herder of cattle in the Alps, where swimming in not usually included in the job spec. After a few sessions, I realized that his paws never left the seabed - he could only barely float! I can still see what I now know to be the signs of mental turmoil on his huge face when trying to decide between obedience to his owner or to the laws of flotation!

fenris

It may be worth talking to / getting referred to Shane in Gillabbey Vet (Cork)
http://www.gilabbeyvet.com/rsu.html

He did the hip replacement for my GSD and they are the main referral point for hip replacement type treatments. It was a successful op and the hardest part was keeping him quiet as he wanted to bounce around like a puppy on his fancy new joint!

The field is moving quite quickly and there are a variety of options out there that your own vet may not be fully aware of as the thinking has changed quite a bit over the last few years regarding the age at which to carry out the different treatments. At the very least you will get a view as to your options and timelines for treatment so that you can manage things for the best outcome.

Taltos

Shane is definitely on our radar - discussing among ourselves whether to arrange a consult earlier rather than later. On the plus side our vet was one of his students and she really has been marvellous.

too little too late

Talos - please could you give me details of the hydrotherapy. I have two Newfies, one loves the water, but the female hates water and when I bring them to the sea in Wexford, its a struggle to get her to even paddle in cool off in the hot Summer. My vet had recommended a few sessions with a hydro therapist, can you give me Sharpwells details please. Thanks for all your advice on your post. I got my both Newfies hip and elbow scores done recently and thankfully they both got great scores and got the all clear. Both parents of both dogs were hip and elbow scored as well and they are from completely different blood lines (different countries) as I found it difficult to get different blood lines in Ireland for Newfoundlands. Good luck with your dogs.

Taltos

Let me dig out his number and I will PM it to you.

FYI - we got our vet to fill out a recommendation for us.

Not kidding on how effective this has been, personally seeing the difference in muscle tone I really believe the weekly swim has been key in stopping any bad re-occurences.

As an aside - Sharpwells use a full pool, no treadmill. For us with again a nervous dog this was great, they swim - rest - get treats and swim again.

Sassy58

The place I use for my hydrotherapy has a water threadmill and also a swimming pool - I found the threadmill great as they were able to work on specific muscles above and below the hip joint and cause its in water its still a non weight bareing exercise.

We used Aqua Canines the gilrs name is Alisha Marsh

andreac

too little too late wrote: »

Talos - please could you give me details of the hydrotherapy. I have two Newfies, one loves the water, but the female hates water and when I bring them to the sea in Wexford, its a struggle to get her to even paddle in cool off in the hot Summer. My vet had recommended a few sessions with a hydro therapist, can you give me Sharpwells details please. Thanks for all your advice on your post. I got my both Newfies hip and elbow scores done recently and thankfully they both got great scores and got the all clear. Both parents of both dogs were hip and elbow scored as well and they are from completely different blood lines (different countries) as I found it difficult to get different blood lines in Ireland for Newfoundlands. Good luck with your dogs.

Where do you live? Canine Country Club in Sallins, Kildare has a fab place, full size pool with a separate treadmill. I go there with my Rottweilers.

Taltos

Kildare is too far for me.
I work in Blanchardstown and Sharpwells is literally 10 minutes from where I work - well a little more after I pick the girls up from DTI.

I have heard good things about treadmill therapy - however not sure why but the thought of swimming only with no weight (even reduced) resting on the hips really appeals to me, I know I have no supporting reason for this - just my own prejudice.

It has been quite tough at times - both my girls hated the water and still do to an extent. Gareth though was very calm, clearly had seen this before and after a few weeks of his reassurance and initially 2 trips a week they have settled down.

We did have one setback recently, one of the girls for medical reasons couldn't go in the pool, by the time that was sorted it was 4 weeks without her swimming. It then took another 3 weeks of coaxing before she could relax again in the water. Not sure how her thrashing didn't drown Gareth - but he stuck with it and kept her calm through-out.

Someday I hope that they will swim with me in the sea - but at this point I won't hold my breath for it.

As a wrap on this post though - of everything we have been doing this is the one thing that has had the most noticeable effect - we can clearly see and feel the increased muscle mass.

Now - just need to keep on with the rest and maybe even look into the acupuncture as weird as it is I did shiatsu massage years ago for a few months but didn't keep it up.

Thanks again for all the supporting stories - while I feel for you all glad we are not in this alone and there are others to help with what they are doing.

tk123 - figure you know who I am now ...

tk123

Taltos wrote: »

tk123 - figure you know who I am now ...

Millem

Hydrotherapy sounds great one of my labs aged 8 was diagnosed with HD, arthritis and spondylosis over a year ago and vet perscribed metacam and arthri-aid which she has had every day since diagnosis, he said she will be on it for good now. He never mention hydrotherapy. Do Allianz cover hydrotherapy? And is hydrotherapy instead of metacam ? I am sure prolonged use of metacam can not be long term?

Taltos

You would need to talk to your vet to get advice on the medication aspect.

I think if your vet recommends you then provided the hydrotherapist is certified your insurance will cover you. Why not raise this with your vet as well as your concerns over long term side effects and see what else is available.