ECCE Montessori & "Voluntary" Contributions

Dades

We applied and went for an "interview" with a good local Montessori school last October with our 3 yr old daughter. At the time we were told that the place was part of the scheme, but that they encouraged "voluntary" contributions to meet running costs. We figured, that's fine, we could handle a few quid given the savings we'll make on not paying for playschool.

After chasing them up since then, today we've been given the breakdown of what "free" means. To book a place, a deposit of over €500 is required, and the "voluntary" contritions mentioned are circa €200 per month. Naturally, applications without voluntary contributions are likely to be rejected. [Note, our daughter will only be attending the 3 hrs a day covered by the scheme.]

Is this typical, or am I right in thinking I should just report this place for effectively charging fees whilst claiming to be part of the scheme?!


[Mods - if this is wrong spot feel free to move. Also I haven't found a recent thread related!]

How Strange

I've heard of Montessoris charging for an additional half hour over the three on the ecce but not this.

Lola92

:eek: That is insane! I wouldn't mind paying a deposit to secure the place which could then be taken as a voluntary contribution. €200 a month plus the initial €500 is crazy money to be asking as they are being funded by the government and paid for these places!!

Dades

Lola92 wrote: »

:eek: That is insane!

My thoughts exactly.

I fully intend to phone them and politely call them on their practice to see if they make a stately retreat and revise their expectations somewhat. If that fails I'll let them know a call will be made to the ECCE people.

Also, is there a directory of participating schools? I may well be looking for a new place.

Lola92

Hopefully it might have been a miscommunication and that isn't actually what you would have to pay!

Your local county childcare committee should be able to know of any other montessori's or pre-schools that are taking part in it afaik.

Moonbeam

Sure a lot of play school / Montessoris only cost 200 per month.
I think you need to check it with them again and report them if they are trying to charge that on top of the ecce money.

lonestargirl

I think that's really cheeky. My son is not old enough for ECCE but in his creche's price list they clearly do out the sums showing how much the monthly fee is reduced for full time kid's availing of the scheme and it's completely free for those only attending for the 2.25 hours a day. They do charge extra for music class but it's completely optional and not everyone avails of it.

According to citizen's info they are not allowed charge a booking deposit that is more than twice the weekly capitation fee (max €75 x 2). There's a contact email at the bottom of that site for the Dept of Children and Youth Affairs, I'd be dropping them a line.

These are the official rules of the scheme

Dades

Just talked with someone I know who has a child there.

Apparently the Montessori weren't going to join the scheme and had to capitulate last year when they lost all their students. However they got together with a bunch of other local creches and effectively formed some sort of a cartel whereby they all charge a 'voluntary' fee to make up the difference. It was more or less confirmed if you don't pay up, you don't get in.

Supposedly they got permission from someone in the department to ask for extra. Though I'd hazard the amounts envisaged weren't at that level.

To clarify, the 'contribution' is actually €600 a term (i.e. €1,800 pa), with the first term required as a deposit to book a place.

Free my arse.

Moonbeam

Do not accept that.
Report them, the rules are the same for everyone.
Even community creches that are not for profit charities can not charge extra.

Dades

Will have to see what options are open before burning bridges.

I'll stay my hand for the moment...

MrTsSnickers

My stars that's incredible. You should absolutely report them, as well as those other creches that are engaging in the similar practices! That's disgraceful behaviour. Anyhew, I'm sure that there are specific laws regarding this associated with the free child care scheme. Also there are strict laws, as far as I know, regarding cartels and price fixing.

caprilicious

I would definitely report them, that's daylight robbery :eek:

I would find it very dubious that they got any form of permission from the dept. to charge such extortionate fee's.

Hope you get sorted with a place soon.

Chuchu

That is an outrage! Will you keep us up to date with what happens OP?
Our little one is only 2 and in a great creche that do the ECCE scheme, and I just presumed it was straight forward re getting her into it when the time came around... truth be told I was more concerned about the age limitations and her starting too late... but the idea of paying additional for something that is supposed to be Govt funding and a booking fee to boot has me shocked!!:eek:

Daisy M

What are your options regarding other preschools, are there other ones close by you could send your child to? There are 2 community creches near me who allow the children to stay on an extra half hour and the parents pay 2e per day for this. This appears to be standard.

Do you know if there are any rules in place as to how the preschools determin who gets a place if they are limited. Does it work on the area you live in, first come first served or something else? Maybe there are guidelines in place like there is in schools.

Dades

Thanks for the replies, all.

Am only starting to look to alternatives. I expected this place - which is fantastic by all accounts - to be (save for some nominal contribution) free until yesterday.

If I uncover something interestIng I will of course revert.

Baky

I would no longer consider it fantastic if I were you - that would give me a very bad taste in my mouth. I called Citizen's Information to check if the local creche who were charging a top up on the ECCE scheme were within their rights and they said they were but within a certain limit - I cannot remember what it was but it was reasonable and to allow for additonal staff, hot lunches, whether we were going for a 52 week year etc. and extra hours.

I have noticed huge variations depending on the address - my friends in less salubrious areas of the northside are getting a better deal - no top ups. ON the southside all the creches are charging the same sort of top up. But the figures you have been quoted are criminal, opportunistic and greedy. Sounds like some of the insulation companies, who are considering the government grant as a gimme and just charging you the same again, as if the grant is not yours, it's theirs.

Report report report.:pac:

coolhandluke

Dades wrote: »

Just talked with someone I know who has a child there.

Apparently the Montessori weren't going to join the scheme and had to capitulate last year when they lost all their students. However they got together with a bunch of other local creches and effectively formed some sort of a cartel whereby they all charge a 'voluntary' fee to make up the difference. It was more or less confirmed if you don't pay up, you don't get in.

Supposedly they got permission from someone in the department to ask for extra. Though I'd hazard the amounts envisaged weren't at that level.

To clarify, the 'contribution' is actually €600 a term (i.e. €1,800 pa), with the first term required as a deposit to book a place.

Free my arse.

That is crazy, it cost us a sum total of €50 to secure a place for our little one and i'm nearly sure we got that back after the first month and this is in dublin, i was under the impression that they were not allowed to charge top up fees full stop which an "involuntary" fee effectively is.

guppy

Is this for only the standard "free" hours, or for extra time on top of that? My son's playschool charged me €61.50 per week, but he was there 9-2, 5 days a week so I had no complaints about it.

The deposit (which was paid before the ECCE scheme was introduced) was 2 weeks fees, refunded when he left them.

Baky

Dades wrote: »

Just talked with someone I know who has a child there.

Apparently the Montessori weren't going to join the scheme and had to capitulate last year when they lost all their students. However they got together with a bunch of other local creches and effectively formed some sort of a cartel whereby they all charge a 'voluntary' fee to make up the difference. It was more or less confirmed if you don't pay up, you don't get in.

Supposedly they got permission from someone in the department to ask for extra. Though I'd hazard the amounts envisaged weren't at that level.

To clarify, the 'contribution' is actually €600 a term (i.e. €1,800 pa), with the first term required as a deposit to book a place.

Free my arse.

Oh I actually misread your first post - thought you said they were looking for €200 per week, not per month. So actually the top up they are charging is €34 per week which is pretty good I think, depending on what hours they are giving you for that - that's the cost spread over 52 weeks - which I presume you can avail of if you want - as the ECCE grant is €205 per month for 12 months. If you can do terms, then your top up is €50 per week.

Our preschool took a deposit but took that off the first bill. However the charges are €892 - €205 per month full time (8 - 6pm Mon to Friday) so that's €687 per month. The least amount of hours available are 4 mornings per week (8am to 1pm) and that is €455 - €205 per month which is a €250 top up, which is €1,500 per annum, similar to what you have quoted. When you break it down, it means they are charging €5.60 per hour (in total) to look after your child (and not just look after - educate, play, feed etc) so I guess it's quite cheap when you consider what you might have to pay an unqualified babysitter to sit on your couch while your child is asleep.

As I said in an earlier post, I have friends in other areas who can get 3 hours a day, 5 mornings a week for free on the ECCE. Not sure how they can do that as they are only charging €3.40 per hour.

Interesting what you say about a cartel - all the preschools/play schools/creches in this area are the same with regard to fees despite a huge variety in facilities and services (some are mere playgroups in halls, others are montessoris with qualified teachers and full kitchens serving hot food etc.) - I called them all between Booterstown and Dalkey. If there is fixing going on, it's not in the pricing as such - it's in the availability of hours. Basically the ECCE allows for 3 hours every morning = 15 hours per week. None of the schools in this area will offer less than 20 hours per week so that is what you are paying for.

caprilicious

Baky wrote: »

Oh I actually misread your first post - thought you said they were looking for €200 per week, not per month. So actually the top up they are charging is €34 per week which is pretty good I think, depending on what hours they are giving you for that - that's the cost spread over 52 weeks -....

Ah that's how I read it too, sorry op I thought it was an additional €200 per week. An extra €50 p/w to top up the hours/bring them to full time seems about right.

John Mason

i am involved with certain aspects of the administration of the ECCE scheme.

i am telling you they are talking out of their hole when they said they got permission to charge extra.

get on to your local childcare commitee immediately, tell you want Pobal to do an unannounced compliance visit.

then get on to the department of children and youth affairs - 01 6354000 - and say the same thing to them.

oh and the deposit is 100% refundable.

here is a list of all the ccc's https://www.pobal.ie/Funding%20Programmes/Early%20Education%20and%20Childcare/Pages/CCCContacts.aspx


your child is entitled to 3 hours free creche time every day
i am fuming reading this

Dades

Baky wrote: »

Oh I actually misread your first post - thought you said they were looking for €200 per week, not per month. So actually the top up they are charging is €34 per week which is pretty good I think, depending on what hours they are giving you for that - that's the cost spread over 52 weeks - which I presume you can avail of if you want - as the ECCE grant is €205 per month for 12 months. If you can do terms, then your top up is €50 per week.

Yes, it is good value except for the fact that as part of the ECCE scheme it's supposed to be free.

Baky wrote: »

Interesting what you say about a cartel - all the preschools/play schools/creches in this area are the same with regard to fees despite a huge variety in facilities and services (some are mere playgroups in halls, others are montessoris with qualified teachers and full kitchens serving hot food etc.) - I called them all between Booterstown and Dalkey. If there is fixing going on, it's not in the pricing as such - it's in the availability of hours. Basically the ECCE allows for 3 hours every morning = 15 hours per week. None of the schools in this area will offer less than 20 hours per week so that is what you are paying for.

caprilicious wrote:

Ah that's how I read it too, sorry op I thought it was an additional €200 per week. An extra €50 p/w to top up the hours/bring them to full time seems about right.

There is no topping up of hours. We were told our times were 9-12, which was all we wanted. So the €200 per week has nothing to do with hours outside the free scheme.

Baky, do you still have a list of Montessori in those areas (or a link to one)? These are the areas I'll be ringing around too.

John Mason

can you tell what part of the country you are in?

Baky

Dades wrote: »

Yes, it is good value except for the fact that as part of the ECCE scheme it's supposed to be free.



There is no topping up of hours. We were told our times were 9-12, which was all we wanted. So the €200 per week has nothing to do with hours outside the free scheme.

Baky, do you still have a list of Montessori in those areas (or a link to one)? These are the areas I'll be ringing around too.

So it is only 3 hours per day?? I've got a feeling I know which creche you are talking about. Is this the one which famously (or infamously) hands you back your small baby at the end of the day fed, washed, changed and ready for bed? Sounds almost sinister.

I don't have a list as I used the list on schooldays.ie as far as I remember. If you want to PM me I'll tell you two or three I really don't recommend in this area.

Baky

irishbird wrote: »

i am involved with certain aspects of the administration of the ECCE scheme.

i am telling you they are talking out of their hole when they said they got permission to charge extra.

get on to your local childcare commitee immediately, tell you want Pobal to do an unannounced compliance visit.

then get on to the department of children and youth affairs - 01 6354000 - and say the same thing to them.

oh and the deposit is 100% refundable.

here is a list of all the ccc's https://www.pobal.ie/Funding%20Programmes/Early%20Education%20and%20Childcare/Pages/CCCContacts.aspx


your child is entitled to 3 hours free creche time every day
i am fuming reading this

irishbird I was saying I thought it fair enough to top up for extra hours - as I presumed that's what the charge was for. If it's for the standard 15 hour entitlement - well yes then that's bound to be against the rules of the scheme. Does make me wonder though as well about my creche not making the basic 15 hours available. Think I'll call the DLR area co-ordinator myself and suggest a pobal inspection. Thanks for the useful info.

Dades

irishbird wrote: »

can you tell what part of the country you are in?

Baky wrote: »

I don't have a list as I used the list on schooldays.ie as far as I remember. If you want to PM me I'll tell you two or three I really don't recommend in this area.

PM's sent.

I don't want too much transparency on this as it's unresolved.

RubyGirl

https://www.pobal.ie/Funding%20Programmes/Early%20Education%20and%20Childcare/Pages/CCCContacts.aspx

This web page may help you op?

Have you enroled her in a primary school, can they suggest a good montessori school. Would you mention this extra payment to the principal and see if they have heard of this practice.

I would'nt pay either.

superslimme

I couldn't just not reply when I saw this thread. I am a preschool teacher and owner for the past 10 years. I have above the recommended level of (all qualified) teaching staff, I do an array of play, activities and curriculum based work with the preschool children. I also design individual behavior management plans (when required by parents) to assist the management of behavoiurs within the home and I do no charge ANY extra money or ask for voluntary contributions. It is my choice to offer this extra service but as with ALL contracts with department NO early years service is permitted to insist on a voluntary contribution. I am so sick of hearing this, whether the place is good bad or indifferent, has higher qualified staff or has better ratios than the preschool/playschool/Montessori down the road THEY ARE BREAKING A LEGAL CONTRACT BY DOING THIS, if you don't want to pay the voluntary fee, you do not have to. First thing to do is get on to the local childcare committee and ask for a copy of the fee policy for your chosen service. The fee policy is the services' submission of requested "voluntary fees" and has to be signed off before contracts are given. Then report them. Please if you do not feel comfortable reporting these services, send me their details and I'll do it. These greedy people are taking the pi*? >:-(

caprilicious

Sorry Dades, my bad I thought it was for extra hours/meals etc. Back to my original thoughts, bad form of the nursery!
Hope you get sorted with a place soon, this seems like a really frustrating situation to be stuck in.

superslimme

and please users ......... saying "well it is only costing us €30 a week and was €80" etc etc, is still the same thing, these places are not allowed to do this. For children attending during school term only, the service must provide 3 hours preschool per day 5 days a week or 3.5 hours per day 4 days a week, without any extra cost to the parent for 38 weeks. If that service offers another OPTIONAL extra hour a day, they can ask for payment as they have provided the 3hrs*5 days * 38 weeks free of charge. If a child attends a service for the whole 52 weeks of the year. That service must allow 2hrs 15 mins per day free for 50 weeks of the year.

sheebah

Hi there - I own a creche in which i participate in the ecce scheme and have never heard of that!! thats crazy - the ecce directorate in dublin is who you contact about that - i think the number is 016354000

community creches are no different than private (which i am) i have heard of places taking deposits but of one weeks fee of 64.50 not 500!!

why are you leaving the child in that creche? you should have transferred in January which is the only time you can transfer unless calling that number. you may have to pay elsewhere.

did you sit down with the manager?

nesf

Yeah, this is fairly insane Dades. Our boy was in a naoinra (preschool through Irish) that cost €250 a month but when the ECCE came in the year was free with no voluntary fee bull**** attached. Report them, complain to them, make their lives difficult, if creches in the big cities can afford to just survive on ECCE then so can these guys.

Dades

sheebah wrote: »

why are you leaving the child in that creche? you should have transferred in January which is the only time you can transfer unless calling that number. you may have to pay elsewhere.

community creches are no different than private (which i am) i have heard of places taking deposits but of one weeks fee of 64.50 not 500!!

Hmmm.

This isn't about a creche - it's about a Montessori that my daughter is/was due to start in September this year. She's currently in playschool.

The actual way they work the deposit is sly. You pay a refundable deposit of €150 this month, but that is only refundable out of the €600 "voluntary" contribution you pay in May which is to cover the first term.

Naturally your deposit of €150 doesn't guarantee you a place. I guess only the €600 gets you that.

Anyhow, as I've said before, I'm going to assess all my options first but my priority is my daughter.

lip

Have to say,out of principal there would be no way I would send my child to somewhere where they are so underhand and money grabbing. Where only the people with the finances can attend. I don't care how good this Montessori school is,its wrong what they're doing and they should be reported.

Dades

My principle were already compromised in favour of my children's education when they got baptised... That's life.

A report will be made, whatever the outcome. Other than that remains to be seen but I'm encouraged by the support here.

Orion

Dades wrote: »

Anyhow, as I've said before, I'm going to assess all my options first but my priority is my daughter.

Do you want your daughter to be taught by people who consider ethics to be optional?

Dades

Orion wrote: »

Do you want your daughter to be taught by people who consider ethics to be optional?

I suspect they employ plenty of cognitive dissonance.

unkel

Report them, that's nasty / sly charging

My youngest is currently in her ECCE year in Montessori and we paid a €130 deposit (refundable at the end of the year)

It's a very good pre-school and there is a waiting list. We got in by booking early and / or having had 2 previous kids in there

The private fee used to be €280 per month for 3 hours a day and that included lunch. Now on the ECCE scheme you pay nothing, but if you want lunch provided for, you pay €25 per month and nothing if you provide lunch yourself

Baky

Dades wrote: »

My principle were already compromised in favour of my children's education when they got baptised... That's life.

A report will be made, whatever the outcome. Other than that remains to be seen but I'm encouraged by the support here.

I take it you mean you felt you had to baptise your daughter into the RC church?

Did you?

Ah HA - maybe that's why I haven't received an offer of a school place yet...:(

Dades

Well, my wife is catholic, so the decision wasn't just a scheme to get into a school.

gabsdot40

please report this school to your local county childcare committee or to the department of children and youth affairs. I run a preschool myself and am part of the ECCE scheme. it is in breach of contract to charge an amount like that for voluntary contributions. The rules around VC are very strict .

This is from the Department of youth and children affairs

Q: Does the scheme allow for voluntary donations from parents?

A: This depends on the nature of the donation. Of course, if a parent wishes to make a donation to a service, this is acceptable, for example a service could inform parents who wish to make a donation that direct debit forms are available. However, enrolment must not be dependent on making a donation, and any donation must be clearly optional to parents. The collection of such contributions from parents in a manner similar to fees (e.g. with an envelope being passed to parents each month), would breach the conditions of the scheme.

The general rule is that, while a pre-school may make their details available to allow for voluntary donations, these should not be sought from parents on more than one occasion, and at all times it should be made clear to parents that this is done on a voluntary basis only.

Given the uncertainty that a service would have with such an income stream, and the danger that it would make its budget unsustainable, it is not recommended that services actively seek such donations as an income stream.

So this school is in breach of it's contract and IMO should not be able to be in the ECCE scheme but it will take more parents to stand up to them.