Artificial fox dens

johngalway

I was reading a piece on line recently about trapping years ago in the USA. The author would make artificial dens for fox and other critters and "harvest" them that way.

Is that practice allowable in this great little country of ours? I can think of a couple of places where it'd come in really useful around lambing time.

landkeeper

i don't see why not i have come across them in the past mostly put in by hunts concrete or clay pipes in a shallow horseshoe with a chamber in the centre higher than the pipes, they were about 35 yards long from one end to the other

Birdnuts

Can't see why not - its just another form of trapping

ssl

I read about them before.
20 ft pipe to a box. Everything buried except the lid of the box and the pipe enterence. When your checking it push a pole with a stopper the diameter of the pipe on the end of it all the way to the box thus trapping the inhabitants. Then open the box with gun in hand.
The author said the trap becomes more productive each year its in the ground.
I was thinking of building one mink

johngalway

That's the one SSL, bury the lid as well, just not too deep about a foot maybe. Any bit of light getting in will put them right off.

Think I might give one a test.

landkeeper

if you build it with two pipes one in from each side of the chamber you don't need to dig the chamber , 1 terrier 2 nets or a couple of shotguns no disturbance to the earth means you can get another lad in a few days

Vegeta

johngalway wrote: »

That's the one SSL, bury the lid as well, just not too deep about a foot maybe. Any bit of light getting in will put them right off.

Think I might give one a test.

Sounds like a good idea John and I can't think of any legal issues.

100% hidden from anti folk, low maintenance once built, selective and effective i'd say. Would love to see pictures if you go for it.

ssl

johngalway wrote: »

That's the one SSL, bury the lid as well, just not too deep about a foot maybe. Any bit of light getting in will put them right off.

Think I might give one a test.

Just grabbed the book there, Survival Poaching by Ragnar Benson.
He makes his 12ft but recommends 20ft.
He recommends untreated natural wood for construction but has used plywood. And your right bury the lid, 10 inches he says. Place trap above flood levels in a well drained sloping area.
The beauty of it is you don't need to check it regularly as the inhabitants are free to leave until you insert the pole. Then it turns from a den to a trap. Unwanted species can be let free and the trap can't be stolen, damaged or distroyed

johngalway

Yes, that's him, very interesting character indeed. Also liked his ammonia tip, if it works!

ssl

johngalway wrote: »

Yes, that's him, very interesting character indeed. Also liked his ammonia tip, if it works!

He's an interesting chap alright.
Didn't see an ammonia tip for the Den Trap?

johngalway

I forget which bit/book it's in. He was talking about digging, which was a waste of time in his opinion after a couple of rather vigorous experiences. One of the methods he had for getting the fox to take to his heels out of a den was to use a certain grade wire doubled over. Onto the end of that wire he'd tie a rag, which was soaked in ammonia. He reckoned any self respecting fox wouldn't be caught near ammonia. Truth or fiction? I don't know.

Mind you, talking to my friend earlier, we did wonder about the effectiveness of the technique in most of the dens hereabouts, which tend to be horrible things in amongst large bounders and slate bedrock. I expect it'd work just find in tunnel dens though.

Some of his books are available to "read" online and some to download for free.

Shoot2kill

Think ill give this a go!

Bit of craic anyway:D

ssl

The ammonia prob reminds them foxes of skunks.

I got his survival poaching and his guerilla gun smithing books. Might get another for the craic

bazza888

love to set one up and put a camera in it!!be an interesting project

landkeeper

you can bolt a fox with an alien scent like hairspray BUT you won't do it if he knows your there :Dit can be hard enough to persuade one to leave with a nut job terrier giving it grief plus how do you even know if there is a fox in an earth anyway
you might get one fox a year in that 'trap' by the time you have disturbed it and dug down to it, dispatched what is in there it'd be months before it'd be used again
all sounds like guff and bunkum to me and good reading for folk with little or no experience in animal habits

kemen

u could bait it aswell im sure which wud help the situation

snipe02

have heard of these and lads soaking dog fox pelts and bladder contents and spraying the outside with it also having clay inside lining the ground it would be a very interesting experiment best of luck if you decide to try it out

howa .223

john ya must have read my mind!!
was talking with my bro today whilst working and this came up we wondered would it work?
plus we have two patters which need training be great way too have quick access too retrieve if needs be.

Grizzly 45

johngalway wrote: »

I forget which bit/book it's in. He was talking about digging, which was a waste of time in his opinion after a couple of rather vigorous experiences. One of the methods he had for getting the fox to take to his heels out of a den was to use a certain grade wire doubled over. Onto the end of that wire he'd tie a rag, which was soaked in ammonia. He reckoned any self respecting fox wouldn't be caught near ammonia. Truth or fiction? I don't know.

Mind you, talking to my friend earlier, we did wonder about the effectiveness of the technique in most of the dens hereabouts, which tend to be horrible things in amongst large bounders and slate bedrock. I expect it'd work just find in tunnel dens though.

Some of his books are available to "read" online and some to download for free.

Ah old Ragnar Benson ...One of the first books I ever bought on survivalism and such from Paladin Press back in 1982!:eek: How time flies.
What he is describing is the mechanical ferrett,and no I've never been able to get it to work in any shape or form,along with some of his other madder recipies.I think where he was using these things in the midwest of the US,the soil or terrain must be completly different to anything in Ireland,as there is no way I could get the ferrett to go further than a couple of feet into a den.Same I reckon for some of the chemicals and whatnot.They were proably alot stronger or purer in the US or when he used them when he was a young fellah.But by and large a very intresting and proper way and method of "game harvesting",by illict means.Compared to our lot of yahoos.:mad:

thelurcher

johngalway wrote: »

I forget which bit/book it's in. He was talking about digging, which was a waste of time in his opinion after a couple of rather vigorous experiences.

Digging to a terrier working a fox? It's a waste of time alright if the terrier's no good - otherwise it's without a doubt a very effective way of getting to your fox. He sound like a bit of a bluffer - like so many other authors of the 'poaching' genre.

kemen

working test from usa.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ0z_mr6JWs&feature=related

landkeeper

kemen wrote: »

working test from usa.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ0z_mr6JWs&feature=related

hahahahah iv'e seen it all now

johngalway

thelurcher wrote: »

Digging to a terrier working a fox? It's a waste of time alright if the terrier's no good - otherwise it's without a doubt a very effective way of getting to your fox.

Compared to having an artificial den you can get to in two minutes.

johngalway

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Ah old Ragnar Benson ...One of the first books I ever bought on survivalism and such from Paladin Press back in 1982!:eek: How time flies.
What he is describing is the mechanical ferrett,and no I've never been able to get it to work in any shape or form,along with some of his other madder recipies.I think where he was using these things in the midwest of the US,the soil or terrain must be completly different to anything in Ireland,as there is no way I could get the ferrett to go further than a couple of feet into a den.Same I reckon for some of the chemicals and whatnot.They were proably alot stronger or purer in the US or when he used them when he was a young fellah.But by and large a very intresting and proper way and method of "game harvesting",by illict means.Compared to our lot of yahoos.:mad:

I can't see it working in a lot of the dens we encounter around here, they're mostly mazes of rock, got one last year that was between bedrock and a giant bounder that had split on top of it with only a little soil, that took ages. Something on a beach might work better but then again that's easy dug anyway, unless it's deep in an old rabbit warren.

johngalway

howa .223 wrote: »

john ya must have read my mind!!
was talking with my bro today whilst working and this came up we wondered would it work?
plus we have two patters which need training be great way too have quick access too retrieve if needs be.

Only one way to find out, quite a few of the lads in the UK use them. Discussion on natural materials retaining a lot better than plastic pipe. one suggestion was to cut plastic pipe in half, line either side of the trench with bricks or decent building stone, then having the half pipe as a roof to the tunnel. Some were pre-cutting sections out of the plastic pipe roof then for easy access in long stretches. There seemed to be some difference of opinion on how well single entry held compared to double or more entry. There were some nice bits of work done, clay and concrete pipe, stone sides and flags on top and all manner of den boxes from metal tanks to wheelie bins!

johngalway

snipe02 wrote: »

have heard of these and lads soaking dog fox pelts and bladder contents and spraying the outside with it also having clay inside lining the ground it would be a very interesting experiment best of luck if you decide to try it out

Cheers, heard that one as well. It's a build it and forget about it for ages project.

landkeeper

the simple fact remains that you need some way of reliably checking to see if mr fox is at home, the only sure way to do that is run a terrier through it , then once you have done that you won't get a fox in it for quite a while,unless of course you can set up a trail cam on the entrance :cool: if you think it's a great way of dealing with cubs ,the same thing applies the first time you go within a few yards of it she'll move them
a lot of lads use them how they were designed to be used in hunt country. ie a fox is run to ground in one by hounds then it was a simple matter of opening it up and dealing with the fox .

johngalway

landkeeper wrote: »

the simple fact remains that you need some way of reliably checking to see if mr fox is at home, the only sure way to do that is run a terrier through it

Who's arguing with that

thelurcher

I dug a fair few foxes when out with the harriers etc. over Christmas - apart from the one 5' hole the rest were around 1.5' - I broke through with one shovel of earth in an old fort - there was two in the pocket.
All the digging we did over the 2 weeks was a lot less effort than it would take to dig ONE 20' trench and pocket.

If you'd get 1 fox a year to take up residence in your artificial I'd be amazed - I try every burrow around my place and can tell you for a fact that it's very rarely you'd be lucky enough for one to be holding 2 years running - i.e. foxes will be popping in and out but you or me aren't trying every burrow every hour of every day.

Go for it but I guarantee that your ROI for the amount of work you'd be putting in to foxes accounted for would be multiples less than a fella with a decent terrier.
If it was that easy the country would already be full of artificial earths dug by every foxhound and harrier pack in the country.
Trust me on this point Ragnar Benson is most definitely a dreamer.

johngalway wrote: »

Compared to having an artificial den you can get to in two minutes.

johngalway

johngalway wrote: »

most of the dens hereabouts, which tend to be horrible things in amongst large bounders and slate bedrock.

johngalway wrote: »

a lot of the dens we encounter around here, they're mostly mazes of rock, got one last year that was between bedrock and a giant bounder that had split on top of it with only a little soil, that took ages.

johngalway wrote: »

Compared to having an artificial den you can get to in two minutes.

thelurcher wrote: »

Go for it but I guarantee that your ROI for the amount of work you'd be putting in to foxes accounted for would be multiples less than a fella with a decent terrier.

Two points:

• I've quoted & highlighted the parts that you don't seem to have read.
• Where have I stated I don't have access to a terrier?

Now I don't know about you, but I don't happen to have a 360 with rock breaker attachment in my back pocket every time I go out the door.

Glensman

johngalway wrote: »

Two points:

• I've quoted & highlighted the parts that you don't seem to have read.
• Where have I stated I don't have access to a terrier?

Now I don't know about you, but I don't happen to have a 360 with rock breaker attachment in my back pocket every time I go out the door.

If you seen the terrain that John owns/hunts on- you would know that digging holes isn't an option!

I say give it a go John and let us know how you get on.
You may want to start blocking up other dens while you are at it so that yours is that bit more attractive...

thelurcher

Feck me ye're soft out in Galway. A few rocks wouldn't stop us

I actually wasn't having a go at you at all - I'm saying that Benson is full of **** - unless he was also digging your land in Galway too.
I have no doubt that you have access to a terrier - I do however doubt that you have access to a decent working terrier.
You posted a report on a dig before didn't you? To be deadly honest and not trying to stir things up but that wasn't what I'd class as a decent terrier - each to there own though and it probably suits the lads that have it perfectly.

I know you'll argue till the cows come home as always :roll eyes: but there's really no point - if you're set on doing this let your actions speak for you - resurrect this thread in a years time - if they work out then just for the craic I'll make a few in my country too.
My only problem is that if you were seen entering a dog in an artificial in this country would you possibly be done for 'baiting' as the anti's like to call it.

To be a bit more constructive I'll add that a lad that comes hunting with us is terrier man to a hunt in the UK that had similar terrain to what you're describing - they used to construct a few new artificials every summer and had varying degrees of success during the season. Most of the time they ran in under pressure.
I won't see him now for a good few months but will question him more next time and let you know any tips he may have.
Otherwise post on THL in the hounds section.

Good luck.

johngalway

thelurcher wrote: »

Feck me ye're soft out in Galway. A few rocks wouldn't stop us

Glensman can tell you what the rabbits down my way eat. When he gives ya that answer it might give you an idea about the ground. It ain't "a few rocks", it's all rock.

thelurcher wrote: »

You posted a report on a dig before didn't you? To be deadly honest and not trying to stir things up but that wasn't what I'd class as a decent terrier - each to there own though and it probably suits the lads that have it perfectly.

Yet he done the job

thelurcher wrote: »

I know you'll argue till the cows come home as always

I don't actually, quite willing to not bother. Thread was going quite well up to a point I thought.

thelurcher wrote: »

Otherwise post on THL in the hounds section.

Haha, the home of arguing!

There's a fair bit on "artificials" if you search the terrier and working dog forum.

thelurcher wrote: »

Good luck.

Cheers

Glensman wrote: »

If you seen the terrain that John owns/hunts on- you would know that digging holes isn't an option!

I say give it a go John and let us know how you get on.
You may want to start blocking up other dens while you are at it so that yours is that bit more attractive...

I've a particular area of land picked out for it, but I'll need to walk it properly before I pick an exact location.

Grizzly 45

thelurcher wrote: »

I actually wasn't having a go at you at all - I'm saying that Benson is full of **** - unless he was also digging your land in Galway too.

Have you actually read any of his books???
:p
Or are you just blowing off on an isolated incident taken out of context and totally irrevelant anyway to Ireland??
Seeing that Benson grew up in the midwest of America in the Depression era[as much as I can guess] which terrain is totally different to ours.Maybe his yoke and den traps worked there...And wouldnt work here for obvious reasons.
Doesnt mean the man is a total BS artist..:rolleyes:

johngalway

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Have you actually read any of his books???
:p

Am still laughing at the crows, the half pick-up, and the old man a week after reading it.

Grizzly 45

It was a novel way to hunt crows alright.:D A Tad bit tricky here mind!

johngalway

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

It was a novel way to hunt crows alright.:D A Tad bit tricky here mind!

Yeah, I can think of just one or two problems off the top of my head alright

thelurcher

johngalway wrote: »

Yet he done the job

I know you're not a doggy man so I'll put it in terms you may understand - I've unfortunately seen fallow taken with a 22wmr - legalities aside it's hardly ideal but no doubt it will account for a percentage of the animals attempted. The same goes for a mediocre terrier on fox


Grizzly you're picking me up wrong - I'm really only calling him a bluffer on one point - that digging to a terrier working a fox is a waste of time.
I'm also not saying the artificial earth won't work - I just thought it's unnecessary and more work than it's worth. That was my general opinion for the country I'm used to hunting - John's terrain is obviously something I'm not at all familiar with.