Personal abuse and forum moderation in Games, Massively Multiplayer section

oxo_

Hi,

As I've already taken this issue up directly via PM with the mod(s) concerned and am unhappy with one of the mods' lack of action according to the charter (EDIT - removed some words here which I retract as I feel I was wrong in their usage/regards as per Raphaels subsequent recent PM) - I am left with no option but to take this further via your Helpdesk system and ask as per your guidelines, that a CMOD be asked for his/her input on the matter at this stage.

As it might end up a longish post as I will copy/paste all relevant conversations within, I shall state upfront now in advance that all I want and all I ever wanted is for the accusations and personal attacks by one particular poster against myself be actioned according to your own rules, and that he be infracted or punished accordingly (and I say this as per the mods response on the thread and previous warning on the thread to all, was deemed serious enough to warrant the closure of the thread, or so it was given the perception of thus being so) and their posts edited/deleted to remove offending accusations.
That's it, that's all I want/wanted.

The crux of the matter is that I was personally attacked a number of times in the offending thread by the same person with accusations of being a liar (albeit clever wording in the use of "untruths" rather than direct use of the word liar) and then being called a troll, completely out of the blue, with no previous post of mine to warrant such accusations.
I feel the recent posts of this person in calling myself (and another person also) a troll was with the clear and sole intent of baiting for an argumentative response in order to derail the thread, get it locked by the mod and stifle any further discussions on the matters pertained too within and which had been mentioned and have serious merit - If need be and if deemed required, I can link multiple more detailed posts from official forums, assuming they haven't been deleted since, listing almost the exact same issues by a large majority of others. That is if the need arises where I must provide proof I am not telling and have not told any "untruths" and that I am absolutely not nor have I ever intended to be a troll.

The thread in question is here...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056495324&page=11

The offending posts in question are here...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76391503&postcount=157

...and here...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76392925&postcount=160

At the time I read those two recent personal attacks and baiting attempts, I sat on my hands so to speak, held my tongue and did what should be done. That is I reported the offending posts, and waited....

...Then, surprise surprise, this happened...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76398183&postcount=166

No infraction for the offending posts which were personal attacks on myself, baiting with clear intentions (out of the blue) to derail the thread in question, cause disruption and for all I can see, to get the thread locked in order to stifle any further discussion on the matters within.

So I took issue with this, not only that the personal attacks went completely unpunished and the offending posts remained unedited but also that the thread was locked itself.

I therefore opened a PM to the mods of the forum in question, Raphael and Ivan at roughly 10:50pm yesterday evening...

(I'm going to post as quotes or something rather than link directly but any admin feel free as I know you can do but you have my permission anyway, to view my inbox and sent items if required)

From myself to Ivan and Raphael...


Complaint against moderating on Games Forum

Hi,

I reported the following posts in the thread entitled "swtor boredom" by the same person Kirby.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...&postcount=157

and

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...&postcount=160 (which he edited)

Not to mention his earlier post in the thread which I also reported previously (again no action taken) where he said people including myself were lying.

He was clearly baiting me in the posts linked above, his personal attack at calling me a troll was meant as a put down rather than engage in any discussion, merely to shout me down as if my points of view were not valid just because he said so. His "troll" accusations came about out of the blue too as all I'd posted recently in that thread were relating to a discussion in regards reviews needing to be honest.

Now, I was nice, I did not react by replying in the thread - instead I reported the posts and waited for a mod response and any action to be taken.
Instead I see the thread now has been locked by Raphael leaving me with no recourse as to defend myself just because I decided to do the good thing and report the posts rather than engage with Kirby baiting me with his personal abuse.

I'd like an explanation for this please. Why was the thread locked rather than action taken against Kirby for taking it off topic and reducing it to childish name calling and nonsense ?

Thanks

Today at approx 2:50pm I received a response from the mod Raphael, read as such...

Re: Complaint against moderating on Games Forum

Your diligence in reporting threads rather than responding to them is by all means something that we appreciate, but if you expect us to treat you better for doing it, or jump to your defence as the first one to call for help, that simply isn't going to happen. Reporting rather than responding is the correct thing to do, and doing it doesn't get you rewards, it keeps you from punishment for responding.

The reason I took no action against Kirby is because I felt no action was required. Reporting posts just brings them to our attention, and upon seeing and considering it I felt that no action needed to be taken, other than locking the thread before it plunged back into the depths it had already come from.

Leaving you a recourse for response would have been letting the thread become an argument again, which I think there has been enough of.

To which I responded today at approx 3:15pm to Raphael and copied in Ivan also as he is the other mod there...

Re: Complaint against moderating on Games Forum

Where did I ask for special treatment at any stage or that you jump to my defence ? What ?
Where the hell do you get off with saying childish nonsense like that ?

He called me a liar earlier in the thread and then called me a troll, for no reason, absolutely no reason warranted his personal attacks.

All I have hoped for and indeed wanted was that the rules be enforced in regards personal attacks, baiting and he himself trolling and bringing once again the thread off topic, as that was his clear intention of causing arguments in the first place. With the outcome as he knew damn well (as did you), of the thread then going to get locked and therefore any further discussion stifled (surprise surprise).

So instead of taking action as you should have done as a mod, as he broke the forum charter in regards personal attacks, attacking a poster not the post (what post could he attack, it was a flagrant personal attack), along with baiting and attempting once again and succeeding this time in railroading the thread as it suited him, I'm sure you and some others there who didn't want any critical opinions of the game mentioned - so he, and others, got what they wanted, the thread locked and any further critical discussion stifled.

I'm also astonished you'd somehow think I would bring the thread down if I defended myself against personal attacks, yet you refused to act in the first place to stop it in it's tracks and stop the thread from ever becoming such and even though I did as is required and reported the post rather than engage, I'm then spoken to in such a flippant manner here in your reply as if I was somehow seeking special treatment and for you to jump to my defence ?

ALL I ASKED FOR WAS FOR YOU TO DO YOUR JOB AS A MOD ACCORDING TO THE RULES IN PLACE - and protect other posters from personal attacks, abuse, baiting and trolling.

Ivan if you've nothing further to add to this, I'll be taking it up with the Helpdesk Dispute Resolution as I personally feel aggrieved at having personal attacks made against my character as to being called both a liar and a troll - and it would seem from Raphael's response, one rule for some and another rule for others as I can take from Raphaels response that if I did reply rather than report the post, I would have been "punished" for doing so - and maybe that was the clear intention from the start.

Ivan did also respond but I see no need to publish his response here unless he wishes to do so himself. It was an unbiased and professional response from Ivan (as always) but it has no significance I feel to the thread I've made here, unless again he wishes to post his response himself.

Therefore here I am now seeking further escalation on the matters in hand.

That is, in ending and to summarise...

Personal attacks, baiting, accusations of trolling and lying with no background warranted on such nor any background for same being made by one person against myself (and others for that matter which he also accused/abused) going unpunished in any way by one particular moderator on the forum and that subsequently the only action taken was to close to thread which stifled any further discussion.

EDIT: Removed this part also as I feel I was wrong in this regards, as per Raphael subsequent recent PM.

Anyway, there we go, will leave it with you to look into.

Thanks.

EDIT: Just as I posted this I received a PM from Raphael and so to be fair to him, I shall post it here...

oxo_,

Apologies for the comments, reading what I said it came across a little harsher than I meant. I've come across users before who felt that because they reported something they were entitled to have it dealt with the way they wanted, and it's a very frustrating attitude. I apparently read into your post and found that - Sorry if I was mistaken.

As Ivan has said, though, we did take note of every post you reported - I don't know about Ivan but for me they drop into my personal email, which I check several times a day, so I couldn't miss them, However, I felt as Ivan did, that the content of the posts wasn't that bad, but had the potential to get a lot worse.

I wasn't implying that you would bring the thread down, what I meant was that if you responded, the argument that would have developed would have brought the thread down.

When I locked the thread the first time, upon reopening it I said that if the piss was taken, I would relock it. It was, so I did.

If you want to take this somewhere, btw, Helpdesk (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=30) is the place to go, Dispute Resolution is I believe explicitely for contesting bans and infractions, general complaints about mod behaviour go there.

...and as such, after reading his reply, I myself have taken up Raphael wrongly or too harshly in his initial response, so for that I also apologise.

However, my complaints still stand in regards the offending poster in question and their personal attacks against myself (and others) and the lack of action taken as I see it, which derailed the thread, got it locked and left me personally abused and accused as a troll without any opportunity for recourse.

Spear

Moved to the Helpdesk, as this is nothing to with DRP, just as the PM's state.

Do you have permission to post those PMs?

Raphael

He does

oxo_

Spear wrote: »

Moved to the Helpdesk, as this is nothing to with DRP, just as the PM's state.

Do you have permission to post those PMs?

I didn't need permission when I posted it in Dispute Resolution :mad:

"Private message conversations in relation to the topic at hand are ok to publish in this forum in an attempt to resolve an issue. This is contrary to normal Boards.ie Guidelines that permission be sought before publication of any PMs sent or received."

Your information underneath the Dispute Resolution forum also says...

"This is our forum for dealing with disputes between members and Moderators."

Of which my complaint is in essence as it relates to lack of forum moderation in regards personal attacks and accusations received against myself.

Spear

oxo_ wrote: »

I didn't need permission when I posted it in Dispute Resolution :mad:

Your issue doesn't fall under the DRP, so you can't claim protection under the DRP rules, hence the need to ask now. But Raphael has given permission for them anyway.

oxo_

Thanks Raphael.

For honesty sake I will state though that I sought no permission as I thought none was required when I initially posted in the Dispute Resolution forum.

Suggest maybe changing the description for that forum to start with big red flashing letters "Only if you have been banned then post here...." as it can be taken up wrongly by some (me!) otherwise

oxo_

Spear wrote: »

Your issue doesn't fall under the DRP, so you can't claim protection under the DRP rules, hence the need to ask now. But Raphael has given permission for them anyway.

I wasn't "claiming" any protection like as if I'm hiding away and hoping to get away with something naughty I might have done
I merely hit helpdesk, saw your description underneath and as I have a dispute, I made the post.

We're not all masters of everything that goes on at Boards, seriously like, change the descriptive text please, I honestly thought I was doing no wrong.

...and again, thanks Raphael.

Spear

oxo_ wrote: »

I wasn't "claiming" any protection like as if I'm hiding away and hoping to get away with something naughty I might have done
I merely hit helpdesk, saw your description underneath and as I have a dispute, I made the post.

We're not all masters of everything that goes on at Boards, seriously like, change the descriptive text please, I honestly thought I was doing no wrong.

...and again, thanks Raphael.

It was a factual statement, you weren't being accused of anything.

Ivan

My PM wrote:

Hi,

I read all of your reports and have been following the thread. The first report you submitted, I felt the language was too borderline as to be worthy of any action on my part. Raphael dealt with the subsequent reports and his decision was to close the thread.

While I might have dealt with the situation differently, we are both moderators for the MMO forum with neither in a position of authority over the other.

Therefore, I am sorry oxo_ but I'm afraid you'll need to escalate this if you need further closure on the matter.

Regards,
Ivan.

My PM between Raphael and Oxo_ and myself. I do feel it relevant to the situation at hand. The first post provided by Oxo_ is the one that I firsted saw, I was the first mod "on the scene" and I posted in the Reported post forum:

Post seems fine to me. No action required, imho.

Raphael agreed. For the second post, Raphael responded first and felt it necessary to close the thread.

After I sent the above PM, Raphael PM'd me directly to discuss the thread and Oxo_'s subsequent complaints further. We agreed that I would review the case once more.

Having completed my review I feel the posts were well written so as to walk the line of personal attacks as to not warrant action. The only difference I would have made to how the issue was handled would be an on-thread warning to Kirby to be more tolerant. Specifically, as the thread is about Star Wars: The Old Republic boredom, it is natural that those who have become frustrated with the game and discontinued their subscription, to want to post there and not, as s/he stated:
"co-opted by trolls".

In my opinion the term trolling can have several interpretations but the one I understand to be the intent of Kirby's post was that the posts by Oxo_ and Stev_o were of little merit. Thus, not being a personal attack but rather an attack on their opinion. In light of his/her extensive contributions to the forum and clean record, I gave him/her the benefit of the doubt.

However, I would not have locked the thread as it was very large and boredom with a new MMO is part of the natural life-cycle of an MMO. A huge amount of players are drawn to the new and shiny and then a percentage of those leave the game as they are more frustrated with the genre than the game itself.

I feel Raphael handled the situation professionally and courteously, potentially moreso than I might have considering the tone of some of the PMs received from Oxo_.

I have issued a warning via PM to Kirby regarding the matter and have added an addendum to the existing thread that a new thread on the issue would not be closed, should anyone wish to accept the invitation to do so.

I personally consider the matter closed but a CMOD investigation may have a different insight into the situation.

Mr E

I'm happy with Ivan's post and actions above.

oxo_, are you OK with this?

oxo_

I've just read and replied to a PM received from Ivan and then come here to read this.
I was happy with the content of that PM and was coming here to ask for the thread to be closed/resolved as I don't think there's much point continuing (I mean that respectfully).

While I disagree about the intent of the use of the word troll in this instance as I perceived it and I do and still do see it as a personal attack - I feel the mods have done all that they can and I accept their viewpoints and actions in this regards.

So yes, thank you and I appreciate the responses.