Ceremony and communal events

ScumLord

I do believe that there is a big social hole left by religion in many people and communities. I'm not for one second saying that religion is required to fill this hole but that religion has often a good reason for people to come together at least once a week and just bond with each other, that was religions service to people and I think we don't fully appreciated how valuable that service was.

I think society has become way to individualistic and people are forgetting that we need each other to excel. To me an individual on their own is no better than any other animal on this planet, it takes a large community to be a modern advanced human.

People have few reasons to come together with people outside of their immediate peer group or hobbyist circle. The young don't engage with the old, the rich don't have to sit beside the poor and we all just go our separate ways.

Is this lack of social bonding something that concerns you as a non believer? Should this be something that state tries to rectify? I honestly think we should have people as enthusiastic about our state as religious folk are about their god. I think our state would be a good reason to bring all sorts of people together under one roof and I think that social bonding is important to the well being of the human animal.

18AD

It does concern me somewhat. But that revolution will have to happen from the bottom up.

Maybe that's just the anarchist in me. The state can't, and shouldn't, fix everything. Leave us alone so we can hang out.

Obvously there are areas where state correction would be useful. I refer pretty much to middle class.

Sarky

It doesn't particularly bother me, but I don't really see it as a problem. I like having friends and being social, but I don't require it. I'm happy to spend a day or two without speaking a word.

I would be willing to bet good money that most people didn't choose mass until being forced by their parents or not really getting involved in anything else left them with few other options. General apathy plays a big part too.

You can't really force people to be passionate about something and have a country based on rights and freedoms. People need to shake themselves out of their apathy and go find something to be passionate about. That's effort a lot of people are to lazy to bother with. Others are just shy or scared or otherwise hung up on meeting new people or trying new things. I bet most of the young'uns that hang about in public drinking rubbish beer and terrorising the elderly would make excellent dancers/writers/game designers/scientists/whatever, if they weren't busy trying to fit in with their peers.

Me, I love trying new things. I've gone through college a couple of times, I've been involved in a whole bunch of societies, I've tried a whole range of hobbies from karate to airsoft to knitting, I'm always looking for new interesting music, I read like it's going out of style, I play games, I write games, I go to games conventions...

Getting enthusiastic about something involves leaping a pretty big first hurdle. but nobody else is going to jump it for you. Individualism is both curse and cure, you're free to pursue whatever you like, or nothing, but if you want to feel part of something, you have to work at it.

Beruthiel

ScumLord wrote: »

I do believe that there is a big social hole left by religion in many people and communities.

How?
I mean, I never saw the social part of going to mass, so I'm seeing no hole.

Dades

As long as you have schools and sports in communities there's more than enough incentives/opportunities for social binding.

Christenings can be replaced by a simply party, and communions and confirmations are just 2 days in anyone's life.

With the exception of maybe the elderly, something like mass is easily replaced by someone who wants social contact by not simply staying at home on Sunday morning and leaving the house.

Daftendirekt

Beruthiel wrote: »

How?
I mean, I never saw the social part of going to mass, so I'm seeing no hole.

Wait... You mean you don't find monotonous chanting and being preached to sociable?

Weird. :pac:

MagicMarker

Isn't that what the pub is for?

Alternatively, you could join a cycling club who would meet up every weekend.

There are plenty of hiking/hill walking clubs that meet up every weekend.

You could join a book club.

If the best thing people can think of in terms of social bonding is going to a church then there's something seriously wrong.

wylo

ScumLord wrote: »

Is this lack of social bonding something that concerns you as a non believer? Should this be something that state tries to rectify? I honestly think we should have people as enthusiastic about our state as religious folk are about their god. I think our state would be a good reason to bring all sorts of people together under one roof and I think that social bonding is important to the well being of the human animal.

I agree with all your points, but I dont think religion has anything to do with it. As others have said , mass is hardly filling that "hole". And yes , like 18AD said, its a middle class problem mostly.

Only thing to do really is be the first to act if you feel strongly about it.
Start setting up community days etc. Maybe the idea will spread.

Maybe something like this, only not directed at mental health, and more directed at "community health" , and obviously not just directed at men...
http://www.mensheds.org.au/

Its politicians that should be getting on it, but it is your responsibility to get in touch with the politicians.

I agree that it is very healthy for a general area to be able to bond like that.

robindch

ScumLord wrote: »

[...] it takes a large community to be a modern advanced human.

Like boards.ie?

ScumLord wrote: »

I think society has become way to individualistic and people are forgetting that we need each other to excel.

I think that people are forgetting that we trust each other far more than we ever did before. Whether it's people's general trust in state to enact decent laws, the people to follow them, the police to enforce them, or the law courts to judge them.

ScumLord wrote: »

I do believe that there is a big social hole left by religion in many people and communities.

As Magic said above, there's something badly wrong with society if people believe that social cohesion can only be guaranteed by some tubby, dull guy in a black dress once a week taking the trouble to lecture a bunch of people who aren't allowed to answer back. There are better ways of doing this.

ScumLord wrote: »

Is this lack of social bonding something that concerns you as a non believer? Should this be something that state tries to rectify?

I do think that pensioners and the unemployed, in return for their benefit/pension, should be required to do work for the state -- stuff like looking after their local communities, looking after kids, other elderly people, generally helping out. Unfortunately, this would fly in the face of union-backed job-protectionist policies, so it's highly unlikely ever to happen, and instead, the old + unemployed will continue sit at home generally not required to do anything of lasting or even temporary benefit to the state that pays them, the employed will continue to cough up and the unions will continue to feel important, and especially, will continue to guarantee the salaries of their top executives.

I wouldn't have said this was an ideal use of taxpayers' money, or of the unemployed/pensioner's time, but I suspect I'm in the minority on that.

RichieC

I don't buy it..

Galvasean

Drama societies, sports teams, book clubs, bird watching.... the list is endless. A bit of imagination is all that's needed.

kylith

My parents go to mass, listen to the priest, then go home. They don't talk to anyone while they're there. What's social about that? Going to the shop is more social; you at least get to talk to the cashier.

Peregrinus

kylith wrote: »

My parents go to mass, listen to the priest, then go home. They don't talk to anyone while they're there. What's social about that? Going to the shop is more social; you at least get to talk to the cashier.

On that view, going to a concert is not a social event, and neither is goind to the theatre.

"Social" doesn't just mean "chat". All organised shared experiences are social events. Going to a church service is certainly a social event; if you can find a sociologist who says otherwise, now would be a good time to name him.

Sarky

Peregrinus wrote: »

On that view, going to a concert is not a social event, and neither is goind to the theatre.

If you don't find concerts social, you're doing it wrong. At AC/DC in Punchestown a year or two ago there were "original" fans with their kids and grandkids, all singing along with total strangers, cheering at eachother in that moment 2 or 3 seconds after the first note when you realise which song they were launching into. Pray all you like, you won't get that feeling at a church. Small talk and thanking the priest for a touching sermon doesn't compare to the first bar of Back In Black.

I'm fairly sure there were a few couples who had just met shagging away here and there too, and if that's not socialising, then the whole species may as well just give up.

We could just replace mass with having a mandatory Sunday rocking-the-f*ck-out.

Galvasean

Sarky wrote: »

We could just replace mass with having a mandatory Sunday rocking-the-f*ck-out.

Galvasean likes this.

Peregrinus

Sarky wrote: »

If you don't find concerts social, you're doing it wrong . . .

I do find concerts social, that's my point. All shared experiences are social. Some may be more emotionally intense than others, but they are all social.

marienbad

I never found that going to mass was a social event, people being lectured by a priest who had absolutely no clue about their real concerns in life. Chat is a two way street but in Ireland of those days the authoritarian nature of the Catholic Church did not allow for that. As a nation it stopped us growing up so that with its sudden collapse we were left with nothing, no civic spirit, no sense of ownership of our country, no sense of social responsibility.

I have a natural distrust of large organisations and that includes organised isms-nationalism catholicism etc.

Bring on the day when the state or anybody else interferes/guides/whatever word you choose - our lives as little as possible.

As for their no longer being social moments , I have to ask the op what world are you living in ? Sport is the new religion ! Try being in Thomond Park this week-end or any Heineken Cup day or a GAA match between rival clubs. You will see all classes and ages united in a joyful fervour that I never saw in a church in Ireland ( with one exception). Go to a Bruce Springsteen concert or whatever is your flavour. There is nothing quite like live sport and live music.

After that we can all pursue our own interests in peace in any one of the thousands of groups up and down the country .

To join or not to join , that is the question . But the option is there

Newaglish

Peregrinus wrote: »

I do find concerts social, that's my point. All shared experiences are social. Some may be more emotionally intense than others, but they are all social.

I think the point that people are making is that while Mass is a social event, insofar as it consists of a multitude of people in the same location at the same time doing the same thing, the level and quality of social interaction is fairly limited.

That being said, I don't think I've ever actually been to a Sunday mass service so I have no idea what level of chit-chatting goes on. I'd say to a certain extent for the much older generation it is probably one of the few times when they gather en masse (pun alert) and there probably is a certain degree of interaction between them and the other old folk. Is there like, tea and cake or whatever afterwards?

MagicMarker

Mass is as much of a social event as walking down Grafton St.

Dades

Newaglish wrote: »

between them and the other old folk. Is there like, tea and cake or whatever afterwards?

The place my folks brought me to as a kid always had tea and biscuits afterwards with all the neighbourhood. I'm sure there's plenty of places that still do this, though it's probably more prevelent in smaller community churches.

iguana

MagicMarker wrote: »

Isn't that what the pub is for?

Alternatively, you could join a cycling club who would meet up every weekend.

There are plenty of hiking/hill walking clubs that meet up every weekend.

You could join a book club.

If the best thing people can think of in terms of social bonding is going to a church then there's something seriously wrong.

Getting a dog is a brilliant one. Every day I leave my house, walk around my local public space and have many chats with numerous other people in my community.

recedite

It annoys me that community halls and various youth clubs are normally under the ultimate control of a church. Government should ensure that one independently run community centre is operational in every village or estate, especially for those people too young to get into a pub.

Morgase

I can see the OP's point in one particular regard, and that is funerals and the month's mind and the anniversary mass.

This is coming from somebody who is 100% not catholic by the way. It's just close to my mind at the moment; it was the anniversary of somebody very close to my boyfriend this week. I'm not advocating that the church should have "control" over when we remember deceased loved ones, but at the same time I felt a strange need for some sort of official "remembering ceremony", if that makes any sense.

Arcus Arrow

Morgase wrote: »

I can see the OP's point in one particular regard, and that is funerals and the month's mind and the anniversary mass.

This is coming from somebody who is 100% not catholic by the way. It's just close to my mind at the moment; it was the anniversary of somebody very close to my boyfriend this week. I'm not advocating that the church should have "control" over when we remember deceased loved ones, but at the same time I felt a strange need for some sort of official "remembering ceremony", if that makes any sense.

The Humanist Association cover BDM's. Mary Raftery's funeral was conducted by Brian Whiteside of the HAI. Mary Raftery managed to make a statement even after she died. You don't need a gang of self serving clerics loyal to a foreign head of state to have a funeral. BDM's are part of the colonising modus operandi of the Catholic Church.