help with Griffith's Valuation

carolinej

Hi, I'm having problems finding the occupier for a plot of land in GV. In the ledger, the plot number is not given. The ledger ends at plot no. 10 for the townsland (Carrigcastle) that I'm interested in. As per the map it's given as no's 13 a,b,c & d. Any advice please? I've even signed up to Irish Origins in the hope of better maps but they're the same as askaboutireland.


http://griffiths.askaboutireland.ie/gv4/single_layer/i8.php?lat=&longt=&dum=0&sheet=24&mysession=2256820856804&info=&place=&county=WATERFORD&placename=CARRIGCASTLE&parish=BALLYLANEEN&country=Ireland&union=&barony=DECIES%20WITHOUT%20DRUM

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=doNameSearch&familyname=&firstname=&offset=20&countyname=&parishname=&parishname&unionname=&baronyname=&totalrows=46&PlaceID=1326018&wildcard=

Coolnabacky1873

Seems to be something unusual there for sure. If you look at the acerage, the total for the Carrigcastle townland is 436. Plot 8 A & B has 220+ acres, over half the size of the townland.

Could it be that the total acreage of plot 8 (which is quite small visually on the corresponding map) includes plots 11-15 on the map?

carolinej

Coolnabacky1873, that's certainly a possibility. The surname Power has been mentioned before as owner's of the land going back years.

Coolnabacky1873

Just looking again at the building valuations and at 17 pounds plot 8 has the highest valued building in the townland.

On the map there are couple of very small tenements in the corner of plot 8.

Carrig Castle (13a on map) seems to be the 'biggest' building in the townland (along with the Church in plot 5) and would possibly correspond to a building value of 17 pounds.

carolinej

Sounds logical. Assuming your theory, would I be right in saying Patrick Power Esq is the tenant of 8a&b, 9a-m, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15?

I've just noticed missing from map on plot 9 are occupiers a - m. Also not shown is a & b of plot 8

Coolnabacky1873

I'd like to be able to give you a definite answer but I'm not sure. It certainly could be possible. I have access to some books on GV and will have a look at them over the next few days.

This is a genuinely interesting case you have brought up as to date I have been unaware of potential errors in GV on any large scale (maybe Pinky, Shanew and some other posters might have some knowledge in this area). It could be a one off or an indication of more errors.

Will post back in a few days.

carolinej

Thanks, I've been aware of this 'error' for several years and have always been puzzled by it.

shanew

I've come across discrepancies (i.e. missing properties, or sub plots not marked) between the valuation and the maps before. Mainly these turn out to due to the slightly later OSI maps used by AskAboutIreland, but sometimes the same data is shown on the original maps - i.e. OriginsNet.

I think these difference are possibly due to the timings of the valuation vs the map survey and production.

It's time consuming but you can try estimating the areas of the various properties on the map and try to reconcile these with the areas, and total, on the valuation and see if you can account for the missing area... messy but that did work for me in one case.

Another approach would be to research the Griffith notebooks and also slightly later and earlier records in the the cancelled land books (Valuation Office), and Tithe books ...

edit : the most common differences I've seen relate to properties without land, i.e. cottages etc, usually marked a,b,c,... etc quite often these are not labelled on the maps - but sometimes seem to be drawn on the map


Shane

Coolnabacky1873

I don't know if I can add anything of further value to what shanew has written but some of this might help.

You might know already but I forgot to mention how the letters themselves have meaning depending if they are capitalized, italicized etc..

Patrick, Richard and Michael Power seem to be of higher socio-economic status in the townland as a [italicized] indicates the "farmer's house" and all other italicized letters b,c,d,e etc.. indicate cottagers' (agricultural labourers) houses.

A [capitalized] and B would indicate the holding has been divided into two lots.

Therefore, 8Aa probably corresponds to the map reference 13a Carrig Castle.

9a-m in the books could correspond with 11a-m on the map.

Of course that doesn't explain the other discrepancies.

carolinej

Coolnabacky1873 wrote: »

You might know already but I forgot to mention how the letters themselves have meaning depending if they are capitalized, italicized etc..

No, I didn't know that. The map and index certainly make a lot more sense to me now. If I was a betting woman , I'd wager a bet that Patrick Power was tenant. I found the following online article, which mentions P Power:

http://www.landedestates.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/estate-show.jsp?id=3181

carolinej

Just to update Coolnabacky & shanew re the error in Griffiths Valuation they helped me recently figure out: I visited the valuation office last week & looked at the land books for the townsland. Re the reference number's that were omitted in the ledger, well, your theories were correct on the connection between net values & acreage, as my ancestor started renting plot 13 in 1893 & purchased in 1906. I now know when my family moved into the area.

It was my first visit to land valuation office. Very interesting. I was surprised I was able to handle the original ledgers & photocopy relevant pages myself! No white gloves either..

pinkypinky

The white gloves are often for tv value. Any archival experts I've talked to prefer people to have clean hands...you have far greater manual dexterity with bare hands so you're less likely to tear a page.

Coolnabacky1873

Had to laugh when I saw Martin Sheen at the Irish Military Archives in WDYTYA USA and the zoomed in on him putting the white gloves on.

Coolnabacky1873

carolinej wrote: »

my ancestor started renting plot 13 in 1893 & purchased in 1906. I now know when my family moved into the area.

That's great to hear as it's very satisfying to find the correct townland when the family has moved around a bit.

robertoestela

carolinej wrote: »

Hi, I'm having problems finding the occupier for a plot of land in GV. In the ledger, the plot number is not given. The ledger ends at plot no. 10 for the townsland (Carrigcastle) that I'm interested in. As per the map it's given as no's 13 a,b,c & d. Any advice please? I've even signed up to Irish Origins in the hope of better maps but they're the same as askaboutireland.


http://griffiths.askaboutireland.ie/gv4/single_layer/i8.php?lat=&longt=&dum=0&sheet=24&mysession=2256820856804&info=&place=&county=WATERFORD&placename=CARRIGCASTLE&parish=BALLYLANEEN&country=Ireland&union=&barony=DECIES%20WITHOUT%20DRUM

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=doNameSearch&familyname=&firstname=&offset=20&countyname=&parishname=&parishname&unionname=&baronyname=&totalrows=46&PlaceID=1326018&wildcard=

Hello , I am from Argentina , a 2GG father of mine lived in Carrigcastle by the time of GV .. his father was the William Thompson that occupied 8B-e

His family was evicted after 1851 since they moved to Carrick on Suir when finally my ancestor John thompson emigrated to USA and the to Brasila and Argentina , trying to become a colonist in order to have his own land.

According to what I've researched about this post of yours , my idea is that :

Lot 8 (map) shows 5 plots that might correspond to 8B-b,c,d,e and f.

Lot 11 to 15 (map) corresponds to 8B-a , which is really Carrigcastle estate ( house and lands ) hold by Patrick Power , Esq.

Please let me know any comment,
Regards,
Roberto