Better for street/cage???

tysonslovechild

jus a quick question folks. whats a more affective combo for the cage/the street

bjj/boxing or judo/boxing

thanks.

Mr. Loverman

The cage and "the street" are two very different things.

If you're interested in effective self-defence I would research Krav Maga.

cowzerp

tysonslovechild wrote: »

jus a quick question folks. whats a more affective combo for the cage/the street

bjj/boxing or judo/boxing

thanks.

Street I would say judo and boxing, cage would defo be bjj and boxing, the ground is not a place to go on the streets if it can be helped so judo wins that area, in the cage going to ground is a great tactic if your better than your opponent, in saying that both combo's would be beneficial in both scenarios

SBG Ireland

what if the cage was on the street?

slammer187

Why not train in all of them?

Barry.Oglesby

The only way to settle this would be to tarmac a cage floor.

Peetrik

If you train any of the 3 you mentioned properly (3+ times a week with some cardio thrown in) you should bash anyone within 10-15kg of your weight who doesn't train.

Try them all and pick whichever you enjoy the most

Dyr

Peetrik wrote: »

If you train any of the 3 you mentioned properly (3+ times a week with some cardio thrown in) you should bash anyone within 10-15kg of your weight who doesn't train.

and who offers you a fair go, y'know in exactly the way that violent criminals don't. :pac:

yomchi

I love these threads

Zen65

tysonslovechild wrote: »

whats a more affective combo for the cage/the street

bjj/boxing or judo/boxing

thanks.

Op, am I right in thinking that you are already training as a boxer and you're wondering what art to take up to supplement that skill? I think the answer is more about what club you have access to which offers training in a grappling art rather than worrying about a specific style. A good BJJ club beats a bad Judo club, and vice versa. Why not broaden your quest to look at other options also? If you have access to a good MMA club then you'll learn plenty there to supplement your training.

Self-defence is more about your awareness and willingness to act decisively than it is about learning a particular art. I find that far too many clubs try to package "self-defence" training into their own art, whatever that art may be. Self-defence training should ideally teach you how to avoid violence in the first instance, because any time trouble kicks off there's a high probability of getting seriously hurt no matter what your training is. The street is unlike the cage... there is no referee on the street, and "tapping out" is not an option.

On the other hand, if you're think more "cage" than "self-defence" as your reason for seeking another art then I'd agree with Cowzerp that BJJ is probably the better companion skill for boxing.

Z

arybvtcw0eolkf

Just a heads up guys.

The OP asked a question, stop mocking it.

I'll clean up the thread later, just let 'em get their giggles out of their system first.

Barry.Oglesby

tysonslovechild wrote: »

jus a quick question folks. whats a more affective combo for the cage/the street

bjj/boxing or judo/boxing

thanks.

Hey I just had a glance through your post history (stalking) and I see that you've asked about training a few times over the last couple of months. You're obviously still undecided, so why not try doing a month of either Judo or BJJ, and then making a decision based on your experiences.

In my experience, no one I know in Judo or BJJ really cares about their sport's street fighting effectiveness, they're just too busy training. That's what I suggest you do; get busy training. Then you can make an informed decision.

tysonslovechild

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Hey I just had a glance through your post history (stalking) and I see that you've asked about training a few times over the last couple of months. You're obviously still undecided, so why not try doing a month of either Judo or BJJ, and then making a decision based on your experiences.

In my experience, no one I know in Judo or BJJ really cares about their sport's street fighting effectiveness, they're just too busy training. That's what I suggest you do; get busy training. Then you can make an informed decision.

yea I did box before but not as much as I used to. The reason Im still undecided is due to my job. I get shifted around alot and could be working nights or days. So looking at it for the moment it seems BJJ is more acessable due to more clubs having day time classes. The other reason I asked was a lot of lads I work with wanted to get some training in as we had a situation one night with a gang of lads which didnt end too well for us.

It just reflected in some of the lads heads how unprepared they were.

Stephen_King

tysonslovechild wrote: »

The other reason I asked was a lot of lads I work with wanted to get some training in as we had a situation one night with a gang of lads which didnt end too well for us.

Its not easy to train specifically for encounters with gangs of lads. There are too many potential variables and situations like that get very messy once someone ends up on the ground.

tysonslovechild wrote: »

It just reflected in some of the lads heads how unprepared they were.

Unprepared how? Was it just you were just unfit or what?
My two cents, pick something you think you'll like, be that boxing, wrestling, judo, bjj, whatever-but its best to drop the mindset that your training to prepare for 'the street'.

Frankly, its an unhealthy way of thinking that wont lead you anywhere worthwhile. Most of the streety\krav manga guys I've met tend to focus on ball grabbing and eye poking, neither of which will make one a popular person in a street fight- if anything, if your outnumbered and you try something like that, you'll likely become the centre of attention and your night will have a high probability of ending up with numerous people dancing on your head.

If you train regularly in any of the arts above, you'll end up fitter, stronger and have an idea about techniques most people who don't train wouldn't have a clue about. As a result, you'll be able to handle yourself a bit better in lairy situations, but just be aware of the fact each art has its limits, and there's only so far they'll get you, especially in fights where there's more than two people coming at you.

yomchi

ball grabbing and eye poking, neither of which will make one a popular person in a street fight

Is this a serious statement or is it tongue in cheek? I didn't think the process of violent mill up was akin to a popularity contest.

dasmoose

yomchi wrote: »

Is this a serious statement or is it tongue in cheek? I didn't think the process of violent mill up was akin to a popularity contest.

Yeah, i think you missed his point.

tysonslovechild

Stephen_King wrote: »

Its not easy to train specifically for encounters with gangs of lads. There are too many potential variables and situations like that get very messy once someone ends up on the ground.



Unprepared how? Was it just you were just unfit or what?
My two cents, pick something you think you'll like, be that boxing, wrestling, judo, bjj, whatever-but its best to drop the mindset that your training to prepare for 'the street'.

Frankly, its an unhealthy way of thinking that wont lead you anywhere worthwhile. Most of the streety\krav manga guys I've met tend to focus on ball grabbing and eye poking, neither of which will make one a popular person in a street fight- if anything, if your outnumbered and you try something like that, you'll likely become the centre of attention and your night will have a high probability of ending up with numerous people dancing on your head.

If you train regularly in any of the arts above, you'll end up fitter, stronger and have an idea about techniques most people who don't train wouldn't have a clue about. As a result, you'll be able to handle yourself a bit better in lairy situations, but just be aware of the fact each art has its limits, and there's only so far they'll get you, especially in fights where there's more than two people coming at you.

No not unfit as i said id trained boxing before and keep up fitness when I can. Im not in the mindset that something is going to kick off every time I leave for work. I was speaking for the older lads who I work with in security and have never trained in any martial arts. What I meant by the street was just being outside securing a premises with the possible chance of confrontation.

yomchi

dasmoose wrote: »

Yeah, i think you missed his point.

No I don't think I did.

Most of the streety\krav manga guys I've met tend to focus on ball grabbing and eye poking, neither of which will make one a popular person in a street fight- if anything, if your outnumbered and you try something like that, you'll likely become the centre of attention and your night will have a high probability of ending up with numerous people dancing on your head.

Stephen_King

yomchi wrote: »

Is this a serious statement or is it tongue in cheek? I didn't think the process of violent mill up was akin to a popularity contest.

A bit of both. Any of the fights I've seen where there's been a few people (I've not seen all that many mind you) involved tended to descend into chaos pretty rapidly. Most of them break up into singular scuffles-but there's usually one or two guys free lurking about in the background throwing sneaky shots and making mischief. The fights only really calm down when someone gets really hurt, the people fighting get tired and winded, or its broken up by passers by, security, or gardai.

The problem is, if your one of the guys in a scuffle, and you do something batsh*t crazy, like biting someone or trying to poke their eyes out, its likely to draw the attention of the guys that are lurking about, and they'll do one of two things, leg it, or gang up and beat the bejesus out of you for your efforts. I'd wager the latter occurs a lot more.

So 'popular' may not have been a choice term, but hopefully that made a bit more sense.

tysonslovechild wrote: »

No not unfit as i said id trained boxing before and keep up fitness when I can. Im not in the mindset that something is going to kick off every time I leave for work.

That's fair enough.

tysonslovechild wrote: »

I was speaking for the older lads who I work with in security and have never trained in any martial arts. What I meant by the street was just being outside securing a premises with the possible chance of confrontation.

The only experience I've had with security is a bit of nightclub work, and we were expressly warned (via coughing up for a 'licence' :rolleyes:) against using direct violence- i.e, lamping someone-unless they presented a severe threat to others. The simple reason is lawsuits, its good to keep that in mind with security, its always a risk.

What type of premises is it? I would think if there's an initial risk of confrontation, the best thing to do right off the bat is to remind the people giving you trouble their being recorded by CCTV, even if their not. Following that the Gardai are your best option-that's what you pay tax for.

As for the lads training, boxing with a mix of any of the grappling arts would be your best bet-or just go to a decent MMA club, they should cover all the bases. If your training specifically for self defence, I'd think the best things to focus on would be dirty boxing (i.e boxing with clinch) wrestling (namely guillotines and front headlock chokes) and Judo\BJJ (collar chokes mainly).

The problem for most people is time-they'd need about six months to a year and a half of training about 3 times a week to get proficient in any of the more effective arts. If they have the free time to invest, its well worthwhile, if not then its best to rely on wits and common sense in confrontational situations. Older folk are supposed to have this in spades :pac:.

Once your doing fairly decent in sparring against the lads in your club you should be able to somewhat apply what you've learned in self defence situations, but keep in mind even highly trained guys can end up in trouble when the sh*t starts to fly.

pearsquasher

1) A "cage" deals with a specialist skill-set (generally submission), in a santised environment, one-on-one, with no weapons and definite rules (you don't have to worry about your pinky being snapped for example).... ie "known, knowns" that you train the hell out of to combat. Also there's weight divisions and skill-matching.

2) The street is about dealing with
a) "unknown unknowns" - you don't even know you're about to be jumped
or
b) "known unknowns" - you work in security and you know you have to deal with trouble but not what that exactly will be

Either way (a) or (b) MAY involve weapons and/or multiples (you cannot take chance that they won't)

I think training 1) will help with 2) but that training for 2) exclusively is VERY different and you have to figure out how much of either you want to do. Its a lot about physical differences - how you use your body, control of tactical space, weapons retentions/awareness etc as well as mental outlook - ability to escape for example or protecting the antagonist... which don't come into 1) at all!

PS Bujinkan deals 100% with (2)

cowzerp

pearsquasher wrote: »

PS Bujinkan deals 100% with (2)

so Boxing and Bujinkan you say! What type of judo is that?!

If we're going off topic get some MMA training will prepare you better having to resist against non compliant attackers.

Killme00

Unknown Unkowns. Isnt that a double negative?

Known Unknowns. A paradox?

Doug Cartel

Killme00 wrote: »

Unknown Unkowns. Isnt that a double negative?

Known Unknowns. A paradox?

He's paraphrasing a famous speech by Donald Rumsfeld. A lot of people take the piss out of that speech, but it's actually a pretty good, concise description of the statistical modelling methods used in risk assessment.

Doug Cartel

pearsquasher wrote: »

1) A "cage" deals with a specialist skill-set (generally submission), in a santised environment, one-on-one, with no weapons and definite rules (you don't have to worry about your pinky being snapped for example).... ie "known, knowns" that you train the hell out of to combat. Also there's weight divisions and skill-matching.

2) The street is about dealing with
a) "unknown unknowns" - you don't even know you're about to be jumped
or
b) "known unknowns" - you work in security and you know you have to deal with trouble but not what that exactly will be

Either way (a) or (b) MAY involve weapons and/or multiples (you cannot take chance that they won't)

I think training 1) will help with 2) but that training for 2) exclusively is VERY different and you have to figure out how much of either you want to do. Its a lot about physical differences - how you use your body, control of tactical space, weapons retentions/awareness etc as well as mental outlook - ability to escape for example or protecting the antagonist... which don't come into 1) at all!

PS Bujinkan deals 100% with (2)

I think you're getting a bit far away from the typical use of known/unknown unknowns here. Unknown unknowns are not something you can really train for - once you even acknowledge their existence they become known unknowns.

yomchi

A bit of both. Any of the fights I've seen where there's been a few people (I've not seen all that many mind you) involved tended to descend into chaos pretty rapidly. Most of them break up into singular scuffles-but there's usually one or two guys free lurking about in the background throwing sneaky shots and making mischief. The fights only really calm down when someone gets really hurt, the people fighting get tired and winded, or its broken up by passers by, security, or gardai.

The problem is, if your one of the guys in a scuffle, and you do something batsh*t crazy, like biting someone or trying to poke their eyes out, its likely to draw the attention of the guys that are lurking about, and they'll do one of two things, leg it, or gang up and beat the bejesus out of you for your efforts. I'd wager the latter occurs a lot more.

So 'popular' may not have been a choice term, but hopefully that made a bit more sense.

Thanks for taking the time to reply, and you are correct biting and gouging doesn't always have the desired response, therefore one needs to know where nasty stuff like that fits as in last resort scenarios within an extremely close quarter. If lads are talking about biting and gouging as fight finishers they are talking through their arses.

Any of the fights I've seen where there's been a few people (I've not seen all that many mind you) involved tended to descend into chaos pretty rapidly.

Spot on mate, unlike the highly skilled bouts you would see inside a cage.

cowzerp

yomchi wrote: »

Spot on mate, unlike the highly skilled bouts you would see inside a cage.

That's spot on but proves nothing to suit Self defense training is more efficent on the street, unless they train random brawls in the club with resistance then it's not realistic at all, been able to handle a skilled opponent makes unskilled opponents very easy to deal with so Combat sports get you more ready for when the **** hit's the fan.

Dyr

Doug Cartel wrote: »

I think you're getting a bit far away from the typical use of known/unknown unknowns here. Unknown unknowns are not something you can really train for - once you even acknowledge their existence they become known unknowns.

Conscious unknowns and unconscious unknowns might be a better term. My opinion is that most martial arts have a lot of unconscious unknowns as they are geared to address a scenario that is constant. ie Judo: one vs one, equal resources, a constant environment, both participants share the same goals and limitations.

If someone is geared towards addressing variables in their training then they will probably have less unconscious unknowns and be able to address any unconscious unknowns they do have more successfully when they crop up.
All IMO

yomchi

cowzerp wrote: »

That's spot on but proves nothing to suit Self defense training is more efficent on the street, unless they train random brawls in the club with resistance then it's not realistic at all, been able to handle a skilled opponent makes unskilled opponents very easy to deal with so Combat sports get you more ready for when the **** hit's the fan.

I'm not arguing that it doesn't. Any training that enables a person to develop knock out power and promotes sparring has a right advantage in any random brawl. I'm not coming down on any side as to which is better for x,y or z because I don't really care. Having said that any training like the one I have mentioned that also deals with options when faced with more than one or with a weapon of any description and in an environement some what closer to realism also has advantages, it's up the person to decide where they want to bring their training and wish them the best whatever decision they make. They provide much more advantages that sitting at home watching UFC or UTD.

Doug Cartel

Bambi wrote: »

Conscious unknowns and unconscious unknowns might be a better term. My opinion is that most martial arts have a lot of unconscious unknowns as they are geared to address a scenario that is constant. ie Judo: one vs one, equal resources, a constant environment, both participants share the same goals and limitations.

If someone is geared towards addressing variables in their training then they will probably have less unconscious unknowns and be able to address any unconscious unknowns they do have more successfully when they crop up.
All IMO

OK, I think the following is going to be a bit abstract, and probably irrelevant to the thread, but anyway here goes.

When you are modelling real world problems, considering more parameters doesn't necessarily mean you get better results - especially if you start considering parameters that you don't really understand. Often you're better off just making some assumptions and working from there, provided you are clear about what assumptions you are making.

That's kind of what I like about judo. We make the assumption that there is a range of situations that are hard to understand and difficult to train for, and we just drop them. We only work on stuff that we can really go at full bore and that we can objectively test. Other styles train for much wider range of circumstances, but with some of them I wonder how accurately their training addresses those situations.

I'm not big into self defence, but I do feel that judo helps in a situation where somebody has grabbed you and you need to stay standing/get them off you, and also that it teaches you how to get back up again if you go to the ground. Now, if people start throwing punches, it starts to move a bit beyond our assumptions in training. If weapons or multiple people get involved that's moving even further form our assumptions, to the point where I couldn't honestly recommend judo
[*], but at least we are reasonably sure that we are covered for the 1 on 1 situation we have trained for.

[*]Once weapons and multiple people get involved, I'm not sure there is any style that you can be certain of.

pearsquasher

Bambi, Doug.... nice posts.

About unknown unknowns.... I mean the idea of a totally unprepared surprise encounter. A worst case scenario random assault, say. Rare but it happens. If you compare this idea to a security person - garda/doorman etc. They're expected to be ready for the jump but what it entails may surprise them. (known unknowns)

Anyway my point was that training for these is possible but different to the scenario of "one vs one, equal resources, a constant environment, both participants share the same goals and limitations.".. not to mention the idea that grievous injury is unlikely.

When you train for non-sports combat its not so much about training for more variables as such... it about methodology and end-goals, tactics etc. It certainly doesn't rule out resistance training/sparring as is commonly believed btw.

Stephen_King

yomchi wrote: »

Spot on mate, unlike the highly skilled bouts you would see inside a cage.

I'd have to echo Cowzers sentiment here-combat sports training (providing you've been doing it long enough and are reasonably skilled) does give you a pretty good advantage in self defence situations over an unskilled opponent. If your able to guillotine someone in MMA sparring, your likely going to be able to do the same in other situations without too much bother.

pearsquasher wrote: »

A "cage" deals with a specialist skill-set (generally submission), in a santised environment

Have you ever fought in an MMA fight? I'm not trying to be trite, but its not exactly a sanitized environment-there are various pressures to deal with in the lead up to and during a fight. Having a barney down in the local just does not compare in the slightest as regards being able to handle pressure. The problem with the barney in the local is that it may...

pearsquasher wrote: »

MAY[/I] involve weapons and/or multiples (you cannot take chance that they won't)

PS Bujinkan deals 100% with (2)

I'm sure Bujinkan deals 100% with the theory of (2) but given the unpredictable nature of that theory, how do you develop an effective training routine to counteract all probabilities?

Just on a side note, none of these threads should be allowed to pass with reference to Bas Ruttens self defence video-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQVaTEPOsTA

Dyr

cowzerp wrote: »

been able to handle a skilled opponent makes unskilled opponents very easy to deal with so Combat sports get you more ready for when the **** hit's the fan.

Thats a bit like saying a Phd in english will make typing letters a piece of p*ss for that secretarial job: it does but its overkill for the intended goal and it still does'nt teach you how to work the phone system :pac:

arybvtcw0eolkf

Some craic in this thread.

OP to me it sounds like you were simply over whelmed by a lack of experience dealing with a violent confrontation in work.

Guess what, I don't believe any particular style will prepare you for this - only more on the job experience.

So train whatever you enjoy would be my advice, because without experience with real life violent confrontation nothing will be worth a pinch of sh*t.

Some of the best door staff I know have never been in a martial arts gym in their lives, but put them on a door and when the sh*t hits the fan they're the dogs bollox because experience has prepared them for it.

Sounds like your group haven't gelled yet either, again experience of violent confrontation is a great bonding experience.

There ya go, just my own opinion of course - but I have the benefit of a lot of experience.

pearsquasher

Have you ever fought in an MMA fight?

. Nope but have done a lot of sparring - standup / ground - in my early days. I do believe its useful training by the way but MMA seems to have this as the end-goal, not just one way of looking at combat training.

I also believe in the on-the-job experience that makimoni mentioned. For a long time in history though, that meant grievous injury/death so sophisticated training methods were developed to reduce injury/increase skill.

cletus

just to go slightly off track, how is it possible to trsin for these "unknow unknows" if they are completly out of the blue, random attacks. Just turning up for training means you know something is going to happen

cowzerp

cletus wrote: »

just to go slightly off track, how is it possible to trsin for these "unknow unknows" if they are completly out of the blue, random attacks. Just turning up for training means you know something is going to happen

It's not possible, But it is possible to train people to be paranoid that at every corner there is someone waiting to stab you or stomp on your head.

People looking for fights tend to find them.

pearsquasher

There's a difference between paranoia and benign awareness. Picking up subtle body language etc etc..... Stuff the experienced doorman might be attuned to.... but less on-the-look-out-for-at-the-door. More of a passive instinct....

In Bujinkan its often expressed as being at zero. Sure it sounds a bit "zen" etc. but its really just training with the mindset that anything can happen and there are no surprises. It just extends things past the taking-on-the-guy-in-front-of you mentality into a larger scope. Its not that this idea is hammered into you at every class... its more of an emergent quality of the system of movement we employ.

So practically speaking, I might show an armlock/strike combo, and when the students are practicing it, point out the hole is their technique if a weapon or another party was involved. The overall effect of this over time is making the most efficient angling/distance/timing to apply techniques such that the holes disappear. This takes the technique from merely being a physical man-handling to incorporating subsconcious tactical maneuvering too... over time.
Resistance is added over time too and that usually means flowing into a different technique... one which would have been covered in some earlier class, with its own holes filled in.

Anyway thats one of the ideas in the training I do.

Dyr

cowzerp wrote: »

It's not possible, But it is possible to train people to be paranoid that at every corner there is someone waiting to stab you or stomp on your head.

People looking for fights tend to find them.

People looking for straw men tend to find them too though. :pac:

cowzerp

Bambi wrote: »

People looking for straw men tend to find them too though. :pac:

Thats true :rolleyes:

tysonslovechild

Selene Yellow Cowhand wrote: »

Some craic in this thread.

OP to me it sounds like you were simply over whelmed by a lack of experience dealing with a violent confrontation in work.

Guess what, I don't believe any particular style will prepare you for this - only more on the job experience.

So train whatever you enjoy would be my advice, because without experience with real life violent confrontation nothing will be worth a pinch of sh*t.

Some of the best door staff I know have never been in a martial arts gym in their lives, but put them on a door and when the sh*t hits the fan they're the dogs bollox because experience has prepared them for it.

Sounds like your group haven't gelled yet either, again experience of violent confrontation is a great bonding experience.

There ya go, just my own opinion of course - but I have the benefit of a lot of experience.

well its true some of the lads maybe arnt made out for the job. but its true experience is the most important thing.