Vo2max

tunney

Probably already been posted but couldnt find it :

http://sweatscience.com/when-is-vo2max-not-max/

More support for Noakes and the Central Governor Theory.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Do you or anyone else have a link to the Noakes "Central Governor Theory" as its something i have been looking to read for some time.

dev123

Is a Vo2max measurement a constant for an athlete or is there a certain amount of drift day to day week to week?

It appears that it is affected by your state of mind and having an opptimistic view point that the pain will end being scientifically beneficial.

"Emotional stress can affect blood flow during exercise and stimulation of sympathetic cholinergic fibres are thought to promote
arteriolar vasodilatation and to induce changes in metabolism, producing a switch from
aerobic metabolism to increas
ed oxygen-independent glycolytic pathways… We propose the interesting possibility that an anticipatory difference in perception of the future workload might impact the sympathetic or parasympathetic drives and lead to differences in the metabolic response during exercise."

T runner

tunney wrote: »

Probably already been posted but couldnt find it :

http://sweatscience.com/when-is-vo2max-not-max/

More support for Noakes and the Central Governor Theory.

The study doesnt mention Noakes theory at all and concludes:

Conclusion: These findings go against the concept that a plateau in oxygen consumption measured during the classically described INC and VER represents a systemic limitation to oxygen use. The reasons for a higher VO(2) during INC(F) following the DEC test are unclear

That means only that the conventional test may not produce VO2 max. (although the conventional test undoubtedly seems to replicate the VO2 max that conventional ecercise elicites.)

Also it notes that although VO2 max is increased by 4.4% in the decremental test vs incremental: Speed is much reduced 16.3 kph vs 14.2 thats 12-13%.

Different tests necessary to try and reproduce (or not) these results in different psycological scenarios for the groups. Not easy.

Its interesting though: because increased VO2 max was achieved in the incremental test just after the decremental one does this mean we should do a decremental warmup to give us an advantage in races?

dev123

T runner wrote: »

tunney wrote: »

Probably already been posted but couldnt find it :

http://sweatscience.com/when-is-vo2max-not-max/

More support for Noakes and the Central Governor Theory.

The study doesnt mention Noakes theory at all and concludes:

Conclusion: These findings go against the concept that a plateau in oxygen consumption measured during the classically described INC and VER represents a systemic limitation to oxygen use. The reasons for a higher VO(2) during INC(F) following the DEC test are unclear

That means only that the conventional test may not produce VO2 max. (although the conventional test undoubtedly seems to replicate the VO2 max that conventional ecercise elicites.)

Also it notes that although VO2 max is increased by 4.4% in the decremental test vs incremental: Speed is much reduced 16.3 kph vs 14.2 thats 12-13%.

Different tests necessary to try and reproduce (or not) these results in different psycological scenarios for the groups. Not easy.

Its interesting though: because increased VO2 max was achieved in the incremental test just after the decremental one does this mean we should do a decremental warmup to give us an advantage in races?

So instead of easy pace with a couple of strides before trying to set a pb go and hit interval/repetition pace to scare the bejesus out of yourself so much so that race pace feels like a blessing

T runner

dev123 wrote: »

So instead of easy pace with a couple of strides before trying to set a pb go and hit interval/repetition pace to scare the bejesus out of yourself so much so that race pace feels like a blessing

Yep, and promise yourself a good 10 minutes easy jogging between the shock and the race to stop any gip from the guv'na. Doing BHAA race this am possibly. Might give it a lash (after a slow jog and stretch).

dev123

T runner wrote: »

dev123 wrote: »

So instead of easy pace with a couple of strides before trying to set a pb go and hit interval/repetition pace to scare the bejesus out of yourself so much so that race pace feels like a blessing

Yep, and promise yourself a good 10 minutes easy jogging between the shock and the race to stop any gip from the guv'na. Doing BHAA race this am possibly. Might give it a lash (after a slow jog and stretch).

It would be interesting to know how you got on trying to pull a fast one on the central nervous system

Raighne

tunney wrote: »

Probably already been posted but couldnt find it :

http://sweatscience.com/when-is-vo2max-not-max/

More support for Noakes and the Central Governor Theory.

The study does seem to support the theory which is not surprising given the number of theories that have done so over the last number of years. I became aware of this when testing my own lung capacity. In VO2max tests it lung volume has never measured higher than 4.5litres. But I know from other measurements that it is at least 5.2 litres. Problem is I cannot either a) run hard enough at the end of a testing protocol to require the sort of oxygen intake or b) my respiratory muscles are too fatigued at the end of the protocol to operate at maximum capacity or c) a bit of both.

What is interesting with VO2max is that it is a lot less useful than a lactate profile in terms of equating real race potential from. In most athletes the blood is 100% oxygenated at any time of exercise so breathing harder (e.g. bringing in more oxygen) will not limit performance. Performance is limited by insufficient capillarisation meaning not enough training has been done and not enough capillaries created into the working muscles to transport the oxygen from the blood to the muscle cells where the energy is needed. This is essentially a bottle-neck that will limit the speed you can run at regardless of your oxygen intake. An untrained individual could have the world's biggest lungs but with few capillaries to transport the oxygen they would not be able to run very fast regardless of their VO2max.

But this is just scratching at the surface, a multitude of factors play in here (too many to mention) but to mention a few you have glucostats (if the sugar level go under a certain level, the brain will protect this storage as the brain cannot run on fat metabolism), thermostats (core temperature rising too quickly, which is why you will generally show a lower VO2max in very hot conditions) and interleukin-6 (an enzyme signalling extensive muscle damage, recent studies show that high interleukin-6 levels in the blood limits performance allegedly because motor-neurons are shut down in the damaged fibres and thus limits power-output).

tunney

T runner wrote: »

The study doesnt mention Noakes theory at all and concludes:

Funny that, "Study fails to mention that its based on (inspired) someone elses theory".......

Raighne

dev123 wrote: »

It would be interesting to know how you got on trying to pull a fast one on the central nervous system

There are a few studies around that seem to support a similar technique, it is called "priming". The first studies I was made aware off by an American physiologist called Jason Karp during a lecture in the US. If you look up "priming" and "Bangsbo" (after the Danish physiologist involved in the study) you can find some studies.

I find them rather technical but this is one sentence that seems to suggest an explanation: "We showed that a priming bout of heavy exercise led to an increased recruitment of motor units in the early part of the second
bout of heavy exercise. Considering the increased oxidative cost and the unaltered energy cost, one could suggest that our results illustrate a reduced metabolic strain per fibre."
Link: http://ep.physoc.org/content/94/6/704.full.pdf

Talking to a few top-level runners I have heard examples of using a fast but hard session one or two days before an important race (John Lenihan for instance told me he used a bout of around 4x400m). The Lydiard system uses an "Up-Tempo" run shortly before peak race. Why this seems to be effective in people's experience could be down to what the above studies show, a positive effect from stimulating the nervous system or psychological (or all of those factors and more conspiring together). The key seems to be able to recover reasonable well before the actual race activity to see benefits.

T runner

tunney wrote: »

Funny that, "Study fails to mention that its based on (inspired) someone elses theory".......

The study neither mentions nor supports the central governor theory in any way. Noakes intro to the journal contains strong words like "speculate" and "yet unidentified". It succeeds in punching holes in hills 1923 work but even noakes himself isn't unwise enough to claim it supports a very vague theory.

"These findings (different people have Relatively different lactate levels during exercise ) should encourage sober reflection among that large group of exercise scientists who use blood lactate concentrations to guide athletes' training." Noakes

I don't think the men who will guide their athletes to sub 2.03 marathons in 2003 by using lactate work will be reflecting soberly or otherwise on noakes speculations. no matter. Noakes' own athlete will fare very will in the book shops thank you very much.

T runner

dev123 wrote: »

It would be interesting to know how you got on trying to pull a fast one on the central nervous system

Sadly didn't make start line due to unforeseen circumstances. Next time though!