Tempo runs and the unavoidable hill

Donelson

Am I better trying to hold a specified constant speed our let the speed vary with gradient and aim for the target pace for total session.
Because of where I live there could easily be 20sec/km between the pace on the out leg and return leg. or I could extend my sessions by an extra 6km to do the tempo run on relative flat ground.
What would you guys recomend?

ecoli

Donelson wrote: »

Am I better trying to hold a specified constant speed our let the speed vary with gradient and aim for the target pace for total session.
Because of where I live there could easily be 20sec/km between the pace on the out leg and return leg. or I could extend my sessions by an extra 6km to do the tempo run on relative flat ground.
What would you guys recomend?

Tempo should be based on effort if you have hills on the course adjust the pace accordingly main thing is you get a comfortably hard effort likewise if you are running downhill or wind etc

madon

I've a fairly hilly route too never thought of how it would effect the tempos, I know I slow down on the hills but I was probably trying too hard to keep the pace, probably why I'm feeling it in my legs today. Good for me to know this:)

robinph

There will be hills on any courses you race to some extent, best to be practiced at running up them at pace.

Not that I'm any good at racing up hills of course.

BeepBeep67

robinph wrote: »

There will be hills on any courses you race to some extent, best to be practiced at running up them at pace.

Not that I'm any good at racing up hills of course.

In a race depending on the length of the hill, but usually run steady (even pace) up 2/3 then try and push on when others are starting to die and run over the top.

A0

Donelson wrote: »

Am I better trying to hold a specified constant speed our let the speed vary with gradient and aim for the target pace for total session.
Because of where I live there could easily be 20sec/km between the pace on the out leg and return leg. or I could extend my sessions by an extra 6km to do the tempo run on relative flat ground.
What would you guys recomend?

That's always the issue when doing tempo sessions on a hilly route... Holding the pace during the whole session (consistency) is the key but it's not always possible. So you could also alternate and do your tempo session on a flat route (e.g., every second week) to make sure that you are at the right pace (speed / perceived exertion, whatever you use) AND the right heart rate through the whole length or duration of your session (so you are sure to be consistent and do 20min at 170bpm - 6min/mile for example).

Donelson

ecoli wrote: »

Tempo should be based on effort if you have hills on the course adjust the pace accordingly main thing is you get a comfortably hard effort likewise if you are running downhill or wind etc

Would heart rate or perceived effort be a better measure for this?

Just seen A0 reply above.

ecoli

A0 wrote: »

That's always the issue when doing tempo sessions on a hilly route... Holding the pace during the whole session (consistency) is the key but it's not always possible. So you could also alternate and do your tempo session on a flat route (e.g., every second week) to make sure that you are at the right pace (speed / perceived exertion, whatever you use) AND the right heart rate through the whole length or duration of your session (so you are sure to be consistent and do 20min at 170bpm - 6min/mile for example).

This is a trap that alot of people fall into. Yes on a flat route consistent pace is a good way of insuring that the effort is the same but on hilly routes or in adverse whether conditions pace becomes secondary to perceived effort.

While your pace may slow on hills as long as the effort remains the same (i.e you are working comfortably hard but not all out). Many people use pace simply because they are not as in tune with there body as they should be and as a result cannot gauge effort accurately be it they are pushing harder than they would like to admit or not pushing hard enough (probably a bi product of the reliance on Garmins and HRMs in modern times)

Heart rate are the most accurate way however unless you have had lactate threshold testing the figures you are using are nothing more than guesswork much like perceived effort. Also many people using HRM often go out to hard to "hit" the right bpm. This should be gradually built up to your threshold level otherwise you are already working too hard.

Some coaches such as Daniels aim to try and eliminate all the judge by feeling aspect by simply getting their athletes to do the tempo runs on flat routes with close to ideal conditions however I feel that it is important for an athlete to become tuned in with regards to their own body.

Garmins/HRM etc are all great tools for training but I think that athletes should try aim to use them retrospectively when analyzing training to an extent for optimum training benefits

A0

Donelson wrote: »

Would heart rate or perceived effort be a better measure for this?

Just seen A0 reply above.

As I wrote in my first post, holding the pace during the whole session (consistency) is the key but it's not always possible (I'm not falling into any trap by the way since I am aware and acknowledge the limitation). We all know that against the wind (i.e, the weather) or in a hill, all that matters is the RPE score and not the speed.

Although it's not addressed to me I'll answer your question.

1) If you do these sessions on a flat course then check your pace - speed - HR - RPE altogether as HR is not the most reliable one, I'm not going to write a page about HR fluctuations and their underlying mechanisms. I personally check my pace - speed and RPE quite often. That's why I originally wrote check your pace - RPE and HR as it's not good to only look at your HR (neither your Garmin if you use one).

2) If you do these sessions on a hilly / undulating / windy route then go for RPE as a hill or the wind are stimuli and induce HR - Blood lactate, etc fluctuations.

As HR is a good but not the most reliable variable to look at also try to use a range (150-153 or 150-155bpm for example) rather than a single point when you do these sessions. It'll take approximately 2-4min to reach steady state in ideal conditions, so be patient if you don't reach the target HR straight away (it's also, among other things, warm up dependent)

Breathing pattern can be looked at, but that's another story...

Good luck

ecoli

A0 wrote: »

As I wrote in my first post, holding the pace during the whole session (consistency) is the key but it's not always possible (I'm not falling into any trap by the way since I am aware and acknowledge the limitation). We all know that against the wind (i.e, the weather) or in a hill, all that matters is the RPE score and not the speed.

Although it's not addressed to me I'll answer your question.

1) If you do these sessions on a flat course then check your pace - speed - HR - RPE altogether as HR is not the most reliable one, I'm not going to write a page about HR fluctuations and their underlying mechanisms. I personally check my pace - speed and RPE quite often. That's why I originally wrote check your pace - RPE and HR as it's not good to only look at your HR (neither your Garmin if you use one).

2) If you do these sessions on a hilly / undulating / windy route then go for RPE as a hill or the wind are stimuli and induce HR - Blood lactate, etc fluctuations.

As HR is a good but not the most reliable variable to look at also try to use a range (150-153 or 150-155bpm for example) rather than a single point when you do these sessions. It'll take approximately 2-4min to reach steady state in ideal conditions, so be patient if you don't reach the target HR straight away (it's also, among other things, warm up dependent)

Breathing pattern can be looked at, but that's another story...

Good luck

Apologies misinterpreted your use if the words "holding the pace".

I would agree that using as many measurements as possible is probably the best way to get accurate information for the majority of runners and I agree with your views on HR however I have to admit Hadd covers Cardiac drift quite well in his writings to enable an athlete to train at the correct levels based on HR which are quite an interesting read from the other side of the argument (I personally dont base my training off HR as have the same reservations about fluctuation as yourself)

A0

ecoli wrote: »

Apologies misinterpreted your use if the words "holding the pace".

I would agree that using as many measurements as possible is probably the best way to get accurate information for the majority of runners and I agree with your views on HR however I have to admit Hadd covers Cardiac drift quite well in his writings to enable an athlete to train at the correct levels based on HR which are quite an interesting read from the other side of the argument (I personally dont base my training off HR as have the same reservations about fluctuation as yourself)

I appreciate your fairness.

It's beyond the scope of this thread but I found sensible to mention the CV drift.

I personally don't worry too much about it as one of the possible explanation of the CV drift is temperature regulation (I say one, there are others), in other words, performing in the heat. So we don't have to worry about that
But, yes, it should be acknowledged so athletes are not surprised to see HR drifting upwards after a while or as they progress into their session.

Donelson

Thanks for indepth replies, I really appricate all the knowelge you guys have got.
To make it simple for me . Would it be fair to say, work hard down hill, work hard up hill, but not so hard that I feel like I'm suffocating. And check pace on flat ground whenever possible.

ecoli

Donelson wrote: »

Thanks for indepth replies, I really appricate all the knowelge you guys have got.
To make it simple for me . Would it be fair to say, work hard down hill, work hard up hill, but not so hard that I feel like I'm suffocating. And check pace on flat ground whenever possible.

sorry we were getting a little carried away. Put simply level of effort should be (pretty much) around the same whether you are on up hill/down hill/ flat thus effort should be comfortably hard not all out roughly an effort which you could sustain for roughly an hour if needed.

If you use hrm try to build to a hr over the first few min and sustain it (or within small hr range say 3-5 bpm range)