Capital Punishment

ejmaztec

I've often wondered about the reason for the out-sourcing taking place after independence. Was it because an Irish executioner would have been a target for reprisals, "living on site" as it were?

Here we have cut-price executions carried out by Thomas Pierrepoint:

British hangman's price drop saved Free State a bit of capital

MICHAEL PARSONS
AN ENGLISH hangman gave the cash-strapped Irish government a dig out by slashing his fee for a rare double execution in 1925, according to a newly revealed document.
Thomas Pierrepoint regularly travelled to Ireland from his home in Yorkshire to hang murderers sentenced to death here because the newly established Irish Free State was unable or unwilling to hire a local hangman and continued to use the services of British executioners.
Pierrepoint’s standard fee for a hanging was £10. But, in August 1925, he travelled to Mountjoy Prison for a rare double execution – of Annie Walsh (31) and her nephew Michael Talbot (24).
However, instead of charging total fees of £20, he charged just £5 for the second victim in a case of “buy one hanging, get the second for half price”. The pair had been convicted of the murder with an axe of Walsh’s much older husband, Edward Walsh (61), a farm labourer in Carnane, Co Limerick.
Pierrepoint’s subsequent expenses claim is possibly the most macabre ever submitted to the Department of Finance. The letter, which will be auctioned by rare book auctioneers Mealy’s in March, is handwritten in spidery black ink.
Writing from his home near Bradford, he requested reimbursement of fees and travel expenses for himself and an unnamed “assistant” – understood to be his nephew Albert Pierrepoint, who was later appointed hangman.
Although both men were “family”, pre-war English class rules were followed to the letter and the uncle travelled first class “by rail and saloon” while Albert was bunged into third class.
Penny-pinching civil servants would doubtless have been relieved by the modest expenses claim. By tradition, the hangman and his assistant slept overnight in Mountjoy Jail – where they tested the gallows equipment to ensure it was functioning smoothly – and thereby avoided Dublin hotel bills. “Refreshments” for each man amounted to only “10 shillings” as hangmen were discouraged from drinking alcohol the night before a job.
Auctioneer George F Mealy said the letter might appeal to collectors and was “interesting as a curiosity and a historical manuscript”. He has estimated its value at €600 to €800.
Between November 1923 and April 1954, there were a total of 35 hangings in Dublin. Walsh was the only woman hanged; the British administration in Ireland had reprieved all six females sentenced to death in the 17 years prior to independence.
Most 20th-century executions in Ireland – and Britain – were carried out by one or other of three members of the well-known Pierrepoint family: Thomas, his brother Henry and nephew Albert whose names were known and dreaded throughout the two countries.
Thomas Pierrepoint, a rather secretive figure, died aged 83 in February 1954. Just two months later, Albert Pierrepoint carried out the last hanging in the State – of Michael Manning (25) from Co Limerick

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0105/1224309835390.html

who the fug

If you look at this list we was hanging about one/ two peeps a year , where would a home grown hangman train

Fratton Fred

An appropriate accompaniment to a thread that discusses Lord Haw Haw (Pierrepoint hung him as well)

ejmaztec

who the fug wrote: »

If you look at this list we was hanging about one/ two peeps a year , where would a home grown hangman train

One of the Pierrepoints could have taught him the ropes.

who the fug

ejmaztec wrote: »

One of the Pierrepoints could have taught him the ropes.

Here is your Coat the trapdoor is that away




Who was going to pay Pierrepoints fee for the training

ejmaztec

who the fug wrote: »

Here is your Coat the trapdoor is that away




Who was going to pay Pierrepoints fee for the training

The Irish tax-payer, without a doubt.

pedroeibar1

In 1800 Judge Day in Dublin sentenced to death a disreputable character, an informer during the 1798 rebellion, named Jemmy O’Brien who he had tried for the murder of a man who called out to him in the street as “the informer O’Brien.” On the morning of the hanging, prostrate on his knees, O’Brien begged more time despite the gaoler reminding him that his hour had come. After some delay the hangman, Tom Galvin, was heard saying "Ah, Mister O'Brien, long life to you, sir, come out on the balcony, an' don't keep the people in suspense; they are mighty uneasy entirely under the swing-swong."

P.

Ozymandiaz

ejmaztec wrote: »

I've often wondered about the reason for the out-sourcing taking place after independence. Was it because an Irish executioner would have been a target for reprisals, "living on site" as it were?

I think you are right. One of Pierrepoint's predecessors, James Berry, wrote in his memoirs [ http://www.archive.org/details/MyExperiencesAsAnExecutioner ] that Irish crowds outside places of execution were invariably hostile to the proceedings and he described some of his adventures dodging people he believed were bent on causing him harm. On one occasion he claims he was in danger from fellow travellers on the Galway train who were anticipating that the executioner was travelling on it. On another occasion he describes a narrow escape from what he leads the reader to believe is a hitman out to get him.

He retired as an executioner at the age of 40 in 1892. He used charge £10 per execution - £5 if there was a reprieve - plus expenses. He always lodged in the jail, never in a hotel or other boarding house. One time he was engaged to hang 4 men at Galway but they were reprieved one by one and he had to spend a week in the prison reading the newspapers, spying on the crowds outside and walking alone in the exercise yard.

He it was who developed the 'Berry Method' of execution using the 'long drop' based on the height, weight and general physical attributes of the condemned person. He also tried to persuade the British Government to hire him on an annual salary instead of the existing fee system but it came to nothing.

Also, in light of comments about this thread running in parallel with that about Irish deserters in WWII, prejudice and anti_Irishness, Berry contrasts the crowd behaviour at Israel LIpski’s execution [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Lipski ] and at William Hunter’s [can find no link for him but see Berry’s book (p129/130) at link above]. He wrote that when Lipski was being hanged for murder of his pregnant girlfiend in Aug 1887:

‘There were many Jews in the crowd, and wherever they were noticed they were hustled and kicked about, and insulted in every imaginable manner; for the hatred displayed by the mob was extended from Lipski to his race. When the black flag was hoisted it was received with three ringing cheers. And yet his crime was no worse than the majprity of murders, and there were many things connected with it … I should have expected to excite some little sympathy …

Hunter’s execution was next but one to Lipski’s, and his crime was one which has always seemed to me about the most heartless I ever heard of. … One would have thought that the man who had thus hearlessly tortured to death a helpless child would have been execrated by all men; yet the crowd that assembled at Hunter’s execution wore quite a holiday air. When the flag was run up there was no demonstration … if the cheers had been given at Hunter’s death which greeted the death of Lipski, I think they would have been more natural and more English than light jests and laughter.’ (Berry My Experiences an an Executioner, pp. 129/130)

Not so, unfortunately. This has nothing to do with a stereotypical notion of the English sense of fair play but is all to do with prejudice, ignorance and a lack of education. William Hazlitt once said that ‘prejudice is the child of ignorance’. Berry ended his days an implacable opponent of capital punishment.

pedroeibar1

Ozymandiaz wrote: »

..............One of Pierrepoint's predecessors, James Berry, wrote in his memoirs [ http://www.archive.org/details/MyExperiencesAsAnExecutioner ] that Irish crowds outside places of execution were invariably hostile to the proceedings .

AFAIK Habeas corpus never was suspended in Britain, it was in Ireland.( Edit wrong - The Suspension of Habeas Corpus Act was passed on 7 May 1794 and habeas corpus was suspended on 16 May 1794. The suspension lasted from May 1794 to July 1795 and again from April 1798 to March 1801.) We also had various Coercion Acts all of which eliminated the most basic rules of evidence; we had 'packed' juries (particularly Grand Juries) that bowed to the will of the Establishment. It is no wonder the crowds were hostile, following such miscarriages of justice.
P.

Sunnyisland

who the fug wrote: »

If you look at this list we was hanging about one/ two peeps a year , where would a home grown hangman train

Taken from above list ,102 executions were carried out during the War of Independence and the Irish Civil War for terrorist murders and treason,


Never seen that wrote before about men at that time.

Apologies don't mean to derail this interesting thread.

joolsveer

The book "Mountjoy - The story of a prison" by Tim Carey (published 2000) gives an account on pages 209 to 211 of an Irishman who wanted to be trained as a hangman. In 1945 it was decided to employ him as "the official Irish hangman" and he travelled to Strangeways Prison in Manchester to be trained by Albert Pierrepoint (at a hanging). He went under the assumed name "Thomas Johnston". Mr Pierrepoint was not impressed with him.

In 1946 Johnston was called on to perform an execution at Mountjoy and he asked the Governor that he be allowed to assist Pierrepoint at one or two more executions before acting on his own. In 1947 Pierrepoint was employed to assist Johnston at a hanging in Mountjoy and told the Governor that he would not take responsibility for the execution. Governor Kavanagh asked Pierrepoint to take over. That was the last time that Johnston attended an execution.

ejmaztec

joolsveer wrote: »

The book "Mountjoy - The story of a prison" by Tim Carey (published 2000) gives an account on pages 209 to 211 of an Irishman who wanted to be trained as a hangman. In 1945 it was decided to employ him as "the official Irish hangman" and he travelled to Strangeways Prison in Manchester to be trained by Albert Pierrepoint (at a hanging). He went under the assumed name "Thomas Johnston". Mr Pierrepoint was not impressed with him.

In 1946 Johnston was called on to perform an execution at Mountjoy and he asked the Governor that he be allowed to assist Pierrepoint at one or two more executions before acting on his own. In 1947 Pierrepoint was employed to assist Johnston at a hanging in Mountjoy and told the Governor that he would not take responsibility for the execution. Governor Kavanagh asked Pierrepoint to take over. That was the last time that Johnston attended an execution.

I wonder if Pierrepoint was protecting his future income by convincing the Governor that the trainee wasn't up to the job, or by not putting much effort into training him, making the apprentice look incompetent?

Gee Bag

There is a bit of science to hanging someone properly. The idea being to break the neck by severing the vertebae rather than to have them strangle on the rope.

The American executioners at Nuremberg bungled the job, which caused the condemned to die by strangulation. The trap door was also too small so that quite a few of the executed did not have a clear drop i.e. they banged off the side of the gallows breaking their fall. There were accusations that the main American (John Woods) was drunk at the time and was motivated by a desire for revenge.

By the by, there is an excellent film about Pierrepoint starring Timothy Spall (Pierrepoint: The Last Executioner). It's well worth a look.

johnny_doyle

bit from an Aussie newspaper which sort of sums up hanging in the Free State/Eire

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/46676874

From a previous era, the death of an Irish rebel who was defended by Admiral Nelson :

The coffins, or shells, which had been previously placed in a room under the scaffold, were then brought up and placed on the platform, on which the drop was erected; the bags of sawdust, to catch the blood when the heads were severed from the bodies, were placed beside them. The block was near the scaffold. There were about a hundred spectators on the platform, among whom were some characters of distinction. The greatest order was observed. At seven minutes before nine o'clock the signal was given, the platform dropped, and they were all launched into eternity.

After hanging about half-an-hour, till they were quite dead, they were cut down. Colonel Despard was first cut down, his body placed upon sawdust, and his head upon a block; after his coat and waistcoat had been taken off, his head was severed from his body, by persons engaged on purpose to perform that ceremony. The executioner then took the head by the hair and, carrying it to the edge of the parapet on the right hand, held it up to the view of the populace, and exclaimed: "This is the head of a traitor, Edward Marcus Despard."

joolsveer

It seems Colonel Despard was hanged in England.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Despard

In late 1802 he was named by government informers and disaffected soldiers as a member of a conspiracy engaged in a plot to seize the Tower of London and Bank of England and assassinate George III. The evidence was thin but Despard was arrested and prosecuted by Attorney General Spencer Perceval, before Lord Ellenborough, the Lord Chief Justice. Despite a dramatic appearance by Lord Nelson as character witness on his behalf, Despard was found guilty by the jury of high treason, and sentenced, with six of his fellow-conspirators (John Wood and John Francis, both privates in the army, carpenter Thomas Broughton, shoemaker James Sedgwick Wratton, slater Arthur Graham, and John Macnamara),[4] to be hanged, drawn and quartered. It was the last time that anyone was sentenced to be hanged, drawn and quartered in England. Prior to execution the sentence was commuted to simple hanging and beheading, amid fears that the draconian punishment might spark public dissent. Despard was executed on the roof of the gatehouse at Horsemonger Lane Gaol, in front of a crowd of at least 20,000 spectators, on 21 February 1803.

johnny_doyle

he was indeed. The last man to be executed in the manner described apparently.

A relative of his then fought in Trinity College during the Easter Rising.

Cardinal Richelieu

Albert Pierpoint career stats. Very well travelled man after WW2.