John Bruton. I'm keeping my €138k PA pension. Fair dues to him.

BeeDI

Read this and thought, what an asshole! Then I reflected and thought, well fair play:p I would do the same if I were him.
Putting it up to the government to do what they were elected to do.

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/pensions/bruton-i-wont-hand-back-my-pension-unless-forced-by-law-2980283.html

Bruton -- I won't hand back my pension unless forced by law

FORMER Taoiseach John Bruton has insisted he won't hand back his €138,000 a year ministerial pension unless the Government passes laws cutting the pensions of all public servants.
The comments came in a wide-ranging interview with the Irish Independent, where Mr Bruton also said the Government should prepare for the collapse of the euro because countries should plan for "every eventuality" even "unthinkable" ones.
On the issue of his pension, the IFSC Ireland chief and former Fine Gael leader stressed that he had given "35 years continuous service" to the State without ever having a "permanent position".
"During that time I acquired pension entitlements similar to other public servants," he said. "If the Government makes decisions about public servants' pensions generally I have no issue with that.
Politician
"But I don't think service as a politician is any less worthy than any other form of service, particularly as politicians have been directly and personally selected by the people in a way that other public servants are not."
Asked whether there was an argument that "times have changed" and the State can no longer afford to pay the pensions, Mr Bruton said it was "up to the Government" to make a call on that.
"If the Government feels it wants to change it, they can do so," he said.
"But whatever changes are applied should be applied across the board, I don't think politicians should be singled out, and I don't think people should be singled out to be questioned just because they're performing a public role."
In November, the Government announced plans to further reduce any public service pensions above €100,000. The portion above €100,000 will now be cut by 20pc, in addition to cuts of up to 12pc on pensions between €12,000 and €100,000.
Mr Bruton, who formerly acted as the EU's ambassador to the United States, was reluctant to be drawn on what plans Ireland should be making to deal with a euro collapse but said the Government should plan for "every eventuality".
"That doesn't mean it's going to happen," he said. "That's like saying to somebody, you bought a life insurance policy, does that mean you plan to die next week ... We have an army and we don't intend to go to war."
Mr Bruton believes no one will leave the eurozone this year.
On Ireland's general economic outlook, Mr Bruton said there was more optimism about Ireland abroad than at home, but he cautioned that it was unrealistic to think that the Government could create growth over the short term.
"It is true that governments can create growth but it takes five or 10 years for the results to come through," he said.
- Laura Noonan

Sleepy

Have to say, in some senses I agree with him. Reduce the pension entitlements pretty much across the board for public sector workers.

Then tell the unions to either accept an across the board 33% salary cut for public sector workers or get the fcuk out of the way and allow a proper root-and-branch examination of our entire public sector that involves redundant people being made redundant, incompetent people being fired for incompetence, over-paid people getting their salaries cut and (possibly a controversial opinion) under-paid people getting their deserved raises and filling of genuine vacancies.

Geuze

PS pensions have been cut.

But not by enough.

Public service pensions above €12,000 cut by an average of 4% in Budget 2011. See section G of this document:

http://budget.gov.ie/budgets/2011/Documents/Part%20C%20-%20Annexes%20to%20SBM%20FINAL.pdf


It's 0-12K: exempt

12K-24K @6%

24K-60K @9%

bal @ 12%

Though recently the 12% cut was increased to 20% for the pension above 100k??

listermint

Thats fair enough from him, But!

I do despise when this line is rolled out

'"35 years continuous service" to the State without ever having a "permanent position".'

I mean what would happen if he was unelected? As per usual with most politicians they have money / teaching position / board position or something else to roll back on should that occur.

Ive yet to see one that cant afford a nice house and a new car......

Jobs arent permanent and shouldnt be, they should be applicable to the standard of work you put in.

END

Geuze

Take a teacher on a 700 pw pension = 36400 pa.

6% of 12-24k is 720 deduction.

9% of 12400 is 1116 deduction.

Total PRD deduction of 1836, or 35 pw, or about 5%.

Should the cut have been more?

I think so.

zero_hope

Typical Irish attitude, a nation of chancers who take everything you can steal. You people disgust me.

hmmm

It shouldn't be up to people to "voluntarily" hand back some of their enormous pensions. In the future when the fuss dies down, they will "forget" to "voluntarily" hand back the pension, and carry on as before.

Instead we need legislation to force permanent change. If we need a referendum to change the constitution let's have it and no more throwing hands up in the air saying that the constitution prevents action being taken.

waster81

you gonna ask all those bankers/prpoerty developers/accounants etc to hand back their pensions

hmmm

waster81 wrote: »

you gonna ask all those bankers/prpoerty developers/accounants etc to hand back their pensions

I'm not paying their pensions. What about all those public sector workers who received pay increases during the boom, or the massive amounts paid out in increased social welfare, or the cuts in taxation for all workers - should we look for that back too?

waster81

hmmm wrote: »

I'm not paying their pensions. What about all those public sector workers who received pay increases during the boom, or the massive amounts paid out in increased social welfare, or the cuts in taxation for all workers - should we look for that back too?

Of course you're paying their pensions - who do you think is paying for them. They arent paying for them

They get them based on decisions they made

Bankers - lending out stupidly so that they can make huge profits
Accountants - writing off on accounts

So dont delude yourself into thinking you're not paying for them

hmmm

waster81 wrote: »

So dont delude yourself into thinking you're not paying for them

Thanks for the update. I'm not paying for them, but thanks anyway for the slogans. It's interesting how threads discussing the PS are immediately disrailed by someone onto something else.

Gumbo

Geuze wrote: »

Take a teacher on a 700 pw pension = 36400 pa.

Do teachers really earn 73k currently?

hmmm wrote: »

Thanks for the update. I'm not paying for them, but thanks anyway for the slogans. It's interesting how threads discussing the PS are immediately disrailed by someone onto something else.

A bit like every other thread on here, post about private sector workers on strike, and the thread will still go down the line of PS bashing, thought you'd be clued up to that at this stage

skafish

waster81 wrote: »

you gonna ask all those bankers/prpoerty developers/accounants etc to hand back their pensions

As previously suggested, leave ALL pensions at their current level. Just bring in a new tax rate of 90% for all income over €100K.
Same result, but can be decreased or increased if and when necessary, or times get better

Icepick

BeeDI wrote: »

But whatever changes are applied should be applied across the board

I agree.

But who is in charge?

Senior ministers entitled to teacher pensions!

Public Expenditure Minister Brendan Howlin
Finance Minister Michael Noonan
Social Protection Minister Joan Burton

Geuze

KC eire,

a teacher who retired recently, with a post of responsibility, and a long-service increment, would be on about 72-73k, yes.

That's before the recent pay cut.

Assuming they had 40 years service, the pension would be 36k approx, or 700pw.

I know a few of them.

Geuze

BTW I'm not PS bashing. Teaching isn't easy.

But I still think PS pensions should be cut by more than the 5% average cut.

Head The Wall

skafish wrote: »

As previously suggested, leave ALL pensions at their current level. Just bring in a new tax rate of 90% for all income over €100K.
Same result, but can be decreased or increased if and when necessary, or times get better

You reckon so that people taking home less than 100k don't get paid too much?

Icepick wrote: »

I agree.

But who is in charge?

Senior ministers entitled to teacher pensions!

Public Expenditure Minister Brendan Howlin
Finance Minister Michael Noonan
Social Protection Minister Joan Burton

They should just ban this outright, why should anyone be allowed benefit from a system that they are not adding any worth to i.e not teaching. We read so many claims on here saying public sector pensions are not gold plated, well if the pension wasn't so good they would stop contributing to it but they don't.

He worked as a teacher for just four years before being elected to the Dail in 1975, but continued paying into his pension fund for almost 30 years.

Gumbo

Geuze wrote: »

KC eire,

a teacher who retired recently, with a post of responsibility, and a long-service increment, would be on about 72-73k, yes.

That's before the recent pay cut.

Assuming they had 40 years service, the pension would be 36k approx, or 700pw.

I know a few of them.

but here is the pre 2011 pay scales - http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/pay/salary-scale/salary-scale-for-teachers-appointed-prior-to-january-2011/

they stop at 61k after 10 years on the max point.
IIRC Allowances are not included in pension calculations (not in my PS job anyhow?)

Head The Wall wrote: »

We read so many claims on here saying public sector pensions are not gold plated, well if the pension wasn't so good they would stop contributing to it but they don't.

Ignoring the fact that these are minister pensions etc and way way beyond the reach of your typical PS employee, but you have to remember you have no choice in pension contributions, they are automatically taken from your wages.

sarumite

kceire wrote: »

but here is the pre 2011 pay scales - http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/pay/salary-scale/salary-scale-for-teachers-appointed-prior-to-january-2011/

they stop at 61k after 10 years on the max point.
IIRC Allowances are not included in pension calculations (not in my PS job anyhow?)

Though a teacher who retired in 2011 would have their pensions based on 2009 salaries, not their current salary . A teaching post is considered a promotion and afaik is considered part of your salary.

Geuze

Those 2011 scales are AFTER the recent pay cut.

But I will use those scales anyway.

The academic allowances are pensionable.

Basic pay = 61,683

Degree allowance = 4918

H.Dip. allowance = 1236

Final salary without an A-post of responsibilty = 67,837

A-post = 8520

Final salary = 76,357

Geuze

Kceire,

if you are interested, here are the payscales before the pay cut:

http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/department-circulars/articles/circular-article/pay-00042010-salary-scales-wef-1st-january-2010//circular-back-to/salary-scale/

sbsquarepants

listermint wrote: »

'"35 years continuous service" to the State without ever having a "permanent position".'

Jobs arent permanent and shouldnt be, they should be applicable to the standard of work you put in.

END

Exactly.
This is an absolutely alien concept in the public service. No private sector job is permanent, never was and never will be. That's the way jobs SHOULD be, thats how private companies manage to have functional workforces as opposed to bloated inefficient drains on their resources.

Gumbo

Geuze wrote: »

Those 2011 scales are AFTER the recent pay cut.

But I will use those scales anyway.

The academic allowances are pensionable.

Basic pay = 61,683

Degree allowance = 4918

H.Dip. allowance = 1236

Final salary without an A-post of responsibilty = 67,837

A-post = 8520

Final salary = 76,357

Thanks, But are these allowances considered pay for pension calculations?
I kow in my PS job, all allowances are not considered for pension calculations.

Also, what is the A-Post, and do all teachers get it?

Geuze

All teachers have three elements to their pay.

Basic wage + degree allowance + H.dip allowance

Yes, all are pensionable.

A-posts are now known as assistant principals. The allowance is pensionable.

There are also B-posts, with less pay.

Say 40-50 teachers in a a school, maybe 5 A-posts and 5 B-posts.

Gumbo

Geuze wrote: »

All teachers have three elements to their pay.

Basic wage + degree allowance + H.dip allowance

Yes, all are pensionable.

Not that i dont believe you
but is there a link to say this, i was of the assumption that allowances are not used in the calculation of pension entitlements?

Geuze wrote: »

A-posts are now known as assistant principals. The allowance is pensionable.

There are also B-posts, with less pay.

Say 40-50 teachers in a a school, maybe 5 A-posts and 5 B-posts.

In my Secondary School, with pupils of approx 300 total, we only had one principle, and one assistant principle, so i think the A-Post and B-Post numbers may be on the very high side there, and also not every teacher will make assistant principle or principle. Its like taking the best paid public servant and basing all PS pensions on that person.

Geuze

Yes, those three allowances are pensionable. I deal with teachers payslips.

http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/retirement-pensions/calculating-your-pension/


What is pensionable remuneration?
Broadly speaking, pensionable remuneration is final pay. For a secondary, community or comprehensive teacher this will comprise retiring salary plus allowances plus supervision and substitution payment.

NB: i didn't think the S&S was pensionable, but it turns out it is.

Geuze

There is a Principal, then Deputy principal.

The A-posts have been renamed Assitant Principals. There were 5 A posts in my school, say 500-600 pupils, maybe 40 teachers.