The mentality of Faith Healers

Penn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7BQKu0YP8Y

I watched this clip from the Interesting Stuff thread, and it got me thinking. Psychics/Mediums... Sure, they're pretty much doing the exact same thing. They're using tricks and lies to basically tell people what they want to hear. Fair enough. I used to think mediums were the worst, as capitalising on people's grief to make some money is just wrong on so many levels.

Faith healers though... even though they're doing the same thing, using a lot of the same methods etc, but it's just a lot more... evil. The more I think about it, they are surely the worst, and I can't get my head around what must be going through their minds. Psychics/Mediums, their readings could have a negative effect on people, but they usually just tell people what they want to hear and the person leaves feeling pretty good.

Faith healers though, are convincing people to abandon medicines, to stop treatments, by exploiting people's beliefs. They go out and using a combination of tricks and the person's own beliefs, make a fortune.

I can imagine a psychic going home in the evening relaxing in front of the fire, thinking "Sure, I just made everything up, but I didn't do anything which could really do any damage to that person's life". Sure, what they did is despicable, but there is rarely any real harm in it.

But a faith healer, going home, in front of the fire... What could they possibly think? "Sure, that old woman probably threw her medicine out the car window on the way home, but when her condition gets worse, she'll probably pay more to get in next time to get a better seat". And of course, the fact that they're using these tricks means they probably have little to no religious belief themselves. It's such a huge, and potentially dangerous scam.

Have there been any former faith healers who've come forth and apologised, or any redeeming features from any of these people? Like I said, psychics and mediums are pure moneygrabbing scumbags who employ the same methods and tricks, but faith healers now seem to me to be on a whole other level of scumbagginessity. Their actions are potentially extremely dangerous, and the worst thing of all is, they know it. Yes, alternative health practitioners etc are also selling false goods, but to use people's faith to do it just seems to me to be the lowest of the low.

fitz0

I'm of the opinion that any of the faith healers that make obscene amounts of money from convincing people to go off medicines and such are psychopaths. There's no way that anyone could consciously do someone ill like that without being devoid of empathic emotion.

Either that or they're just bastards .

pH

Some faith healers have given up, for example Mark Haville, but in an interview here there seems to be very little actual remorse for what he did.

On the larger issues - convincing someone to give up their treatment is a nasty act - but this doesn't seem to happen much - mainly these people seem to "cure" chronic conditions such as arthritis, which doctors are really just managing.

Given that in my opinion all religion is a form of exploitation of the gullible, deliberately taking advantage of people at times of grief and weakness - I'm not sure what you can do about faith healers, where does faith healing begin? What about "praying for the sick of the parish" - where do you draw a line?

I just can't seem to draw a clear distinction as to why it's so much worse than a man living in a palace in Rome, paid for by the gullible because his guys can forgive your sins and make good stuff happen for you ... after you die.

Dades

I wouldn't say all psychics and mediums are "pure moneygrabbing scumbags" - only the ones that repeatedly take money that they know people can't afford. Some people just enjoy going to these shysters like you or I might go to a concert (Bruce Springsteen €96, anyone?) It's nonsense, yeah, but each to their own.

That said, faith healers are potentially a different breed.

nozzferrahhtoo

It is amazing what religion helps you get away with. For example I remember recently a guy in wales being arrested for calling a woman and english bitch in the heat of argument. Yet priests can get up on the pulpit and premeditated call whole areas of our society like homosexuals "sinners" and "abominations"

If I dump a lump of wood on the side of the road I will be done for litter. If I make that wood into a cross and hammer it into the ground where someone has died in, say, a car accident... thats ok.

Similarly, on the subject of this thread, if I were to somehow lure someone to their death without actually killing them myself I would still be prosecuted. If I did not push them in front of a car but lured them into falling under one somehow... I would be held as guilty. Yet these faith healers can kill people by tricking them into not taking their much needed medication and what happens to them? Nothing. At all.

This practice of one law set for the religious and one for everyone else really needs to be addressed.

the_syco

Some faith healers actually believe in their own lies.

If you had a cold, and you stayed in, and it got better, you'd attribute it to common sense.

Looney tunes stays in, prays, gets better, becomes convinced that their prayers healed them. Okay, it may not be a cold, but you get my drift?

They cured themselves or others through prayers, find out there are others like them and they become faith healers. Either that or they need to get people to believe that they are "special" and this feeds their desire to be popular.

I'd nearly question their sanity; that they truely believe that they are doing right as they're pretty f**ked up in their little heads.

seamus

Actually it depends on the person who's doing it.

Hands up; my mother is a "faith healer" or something. I won't go into the ins-and-outs of it, but she's always been into "spiritual" and "holistic" stuff and a number of years ago heard about this idea of there being an energy field emitted by everyone which we can "tap into" so that people can connect on a lower level with eachother or visualise injuries and the like. She explored it through conferences and groups and found that it resonated with her.

I don't debate it with her and I won't debate it with anyone here. It works for her. She believes that she taps into this thing and she has clients that do too. It's probably some kind of cognitive effect that she "visualises" these things.

A session with a client consists of doing a "healing" where she taps into the person's energy, then afterwards sits down to discuss what she's found with the person and hear their woes.
Straight up, it's effectively a meditation followed by a counselling session, and I think my mother would consider that to be a fairly accurate description. she always asks the person why they've come to her, then focusses on that as part of the "healing". There are no mind games or trickery in it like you see in psychics. She doesn't make stuff up about what she thinks she's found, she will tell them if it's "not working" that day or whatever.

The people who come to her are generally people in need of an ear to listen and a placebo. They have emotional/mental difficulties or have experienced a recent trauma. She doesn't charge stupid amounts of money or sell them books or potions or anything. The only reason she charges anything at all is because my Dad told her she had to charge something to get rid of the "timewasters and scumbags". Sometimes the session lasts two hours, sometimes it takes six hours (depending on how much the person keeps talking), she always charges the same paltry amount, which is about what I would charge for 30 minutes of my time. It works for her clients - they all love her, and all of her business is word-of-mouth.

She worked as a paediatric nurse in her prime years, so she has the utmost respect and awareness of medicine. She would never, ever, recommend that someone come off their medication and would always send someone to the doctor if she thought they had a serious illness. Or a psychologist if she thought they needed professional help in that area. She has in some cases contacted authorities and medical professionals herself when she's been very worried about a client.

OK, that's a long post, but there are other people who work in the same area as her who would operate on similar principles.

I just wanted to make the point that not all, in fact a majority IMO, of these "voodoo" types aren't scamming people to make money. In general, they truly believe in what they're doing and charge just enough money to cover their costs, if even.

It could be argued that these "placebo services" do actually have proper value by reducing the burden on actual health professionals. Though I suppose from a skeptical/rational POV, their existence only serves to further irrationality in people.

pH

seamus wrote: »

It could be argued that these "placebo services" do actually have proper value by reducing the burden on actual health professionals. Though I suppose from a skeptical/rational POV, their existence only serves to further irrationality in people.

I think this is a conclusion that people like Ben Goldacre have been edging to over the years - many patients have chronic long term conditions (for example arthritis, back pain etc) which are only being "managed" by their current treatment - and which a placebo can produce a measurable improvement for a period of time.

The ethical problem that "mainstream" doctors face is they find it hard to lie to a patient - i.e. give a person sugar pills and tell them it's a great new drug that will help them a lot - also it's been shown often that if the person "selling" the placebo doesn't really believe themselves the patient picks this up and the placebo effect is weakened.

So as you say above, there may be a lot to be said from a session which is part counselling/friendly chat, part meditation/relaxation/reassurance and delivers a placebo - given by someone who genuinely believes. If this can also be used to promote a generally "healthier" lifestyle (ie actually stopping drinking/smoking, losing some weight, eating healthier and getting more exercise) then all the better.

All this is a million miles from "give me 500 euro for this seaweed extract and throw away that rubbish your doctor gave you" - I guess somewhere in the middle a balance can be found.

Galvasean

I'm a homeophobe and proud of it.

wylo

Nice post Seamus.

Thing is, the body and mind have direct effects on each other, this isnt something mystical, its quite obvious. You could find a zillion examples in every day life that have nothing to do with "healing".

The more realistic "healers" are actually quite genuine and effective, however it won't work if the mind refuses to allow it to work, i.e. a major skeptic that wont open up to it. Personally Id have trouble opening up to the idea someone is tapping into my "energy".

Don't get me wrong, Im not defending those ridiculous faith healers that earn fortunes, just the more realistic ones like Seamus' mother.

Regarding the "energy" shes tapping into , I dont know much about that but I do know its not something that is ignored by physicists. It seems there are attempts to measure it.
interesting article here (from an admittedly brief google search)...http://www.kundalini-tantra.com/physics1.html
Anyway point of my post is, we shouldnt let the whack jobs that are clearly cons close our opinions on all other healers etc.

sbsquarepants

Dades wrote: »

I would say all psychics and mediums are "pure moneygrabbing scumbags" - only the ones that repeatedly take money that they know people can't afford. Some people just enjoy going to these shysters like you or I might go to a concert (Bruce Springsteen €96, anyone?) It's nonsense, yeah, but each to their own.

That said, faith healers are potentially a different breed.

Money well spent.
Praise the boss, halleluja!:)

People kinda see what they want to see. My girlfriends mother is a very religious woman, of the mass every day, house like a shrine type. We were abroad a while back and she hurt her foot, i gave her diphene tablets that i had with me which she duly took. When we got home she went to see an osteopath that she sees about every 2 weeks, he done whatever it is he does. Her foot got better and of course it was the osteo, not the anti inflamatories that fixed it!
Not that i'm comparing osteopaths to faith healers, (although???) but you see the point!
This same woman wouldn't go to reiki by the way, not because it's a scam, but because it's the work of satan! I'm not sure why she reckons satan would want to cure old dears of bad backs and achey muscles in return for a small donation and call it reiki, while the other fella does the same and calls it faith healing? Must have been lost in translation i suppose!

Pushtrak

The mentality of faith healers? Easy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De3QK-LJpPo

Improbable

wylo wrote: »

Regarding the "energy" shes tapping into , I dont know much about that but I do know its not something that is ignored by physicists. It seems there are attempts to measure it.
interesting article here (from an admittedly brief google search)...http://www.kundalini-tantra.com/physics1.html

This is not an "article" and to claim this as evidence that physicists don't dismiss this kind of thing, is absolutely not cool.

wylo

Improbable wrote: »

This is not an "article" and to claim this as evidence that physicists don't dismiss this kind of thing, is absolutely not cool.

ok fair enough, an admittedly brief google search as I said, it wasnt "evidence", just something thats worth reading. Ill find something better. I have definitely come across good articles about it.

fitz0

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Money well spent.
Praise the boss, halleluja!:)

People kinda see what they want to see. My girlfriends mother is a very religious woman, of the mass every day, house like a shrine type. We were abroad a while back and she hurt her foot, i gave her diphene tablets that i had with me which she duly took. When we got home she went to see an osteopath that she sees about every 2 weeks, he done whatever it is he does. Her foot got better and of course it was the osteo, not the anti inflamatories that fixed it!
Not that i'm comparing osteopaths to faith healers, (although???) but you see the point!
This same woman wouldn't go to reiki by the way, not because it's a scam, but because it's the work of satan! I'm not sure why she reckons satan would want to cure old dears of bad backs and achey muscles in return for a small donation and call it reiki, while the other fella does the same and calls it faith healing? Must have been lost in translation i suppose!

Do you know anything more on osteopaths? I'm quite curious as my mother goes to one every now and again with her back. It's cheaper than a chiropractor and she says it really does help with the pain but I know little to nothing about it. Anyone care to take this up?

sbsquarepants

Don't know much to be honest. My girlfriends mother and sister go all the time. I'd kinda put it in the psuedo science category from what they describe to me, but they reckon it works for them so who am i to judge! I think the basics are that your posture, how you move and so on can have unexpected effects on your body as a whole, which sounds reasonably believable but i don't know how much effect sitting up straight can have on a cold, or ibs, or the general state of your immune system for example.
As an aside my girlfriend, who would be neither a believer nor a sceptic tried reiki a few months back, for a sore shoulder because a new friend of hers practices it. It didn't fix her shoulder but she swears blind she could feel it burning and it kind of scared her! However she went a couple of times and felt it every time, so who knows?
I personally would be more inclined to accept the possibility of some, as yet unknown to science, energy or force than a zombie carpenter.

seamus

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I personally would be more inclined to accept the possibility of some, as yet unknown to science, energy or force than a zombie carpenter.

Well tbh, even a simple burning sensation in one's shoulder can be brought on if you concentrate hard enough. Given the amount of crossover between conscious and unconscious control that we can exercise over our body (e.g. "consciously" breathing) and the fact that our nervous system is all the one big connected system, there's no reason to believe that we can't consciously cause ourselves to "feel" tingling, heat, cold, or other sensations in parts of our body, simply by thinking about it.

I have found in the past that I can consciously "block" or cause site-specific pain for a couple of seconds if I concentrate hard enough. It only works sporadically though. The better example is itchiness. We do it to ourselves all the time; if you think about something that makes you itchy, you get a sensation of itchiness.
Indicates nothing more to me than that there's no rigid segregation between the various parts of the human nervous system.

UDP

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I personally would be more inclined to accept the possibility of some, as yet unknown to science, energy or force than a zombie carpenter.

Thats just caused by her concentrating on a part of her body for a period of time.

Unfortunately my girlfriend, who has a chronic condition, started using a homeopath in the last year. It really kills to have to give money for such a scam and I have discussed it with her so she knows my views but she says that it is not just about the homeopathy but also that they would chat for about 2 hours so it works like a counselling session as such. This homeopath charges €70 a session and then sells voodoo "medicine" for another €50-€60 every 6 months or so.

I have no time for homeopaths, faith healers, craziologists etc. Whether they believe in what they are doing or not they *are* exploiting vulnerable people. Even if they think they are giving value in the counselling that comes with their service - they are not qualified to offer such counselling so should not be charging for it.

sbsquarepants

Ah, i agree with you both. I just find it interesting. The mind can obviously influence the body (think of a hot naked woman and the influence is hard to ignore!) I don't buy into the spiritual side of it, what i mean is, our bodies heal themselves every day, but it's basically on auto pilot. There could very well be a way of focusing or strenghtening this healing with the right training. That seems a lot more plausable to me than magic.
I've never tried it myself, but i have tried meditation and so on, with very limited success i have to say but i know others who swear by it and say it almost gets them high. Incidentaly, after my girlfriends 1st proper reiki session she was basically stoned, that effect reduced each time, but for that first time it was quite pronounced!
Homeopaths are just crooks, plain and simple. Water is water is water!

ShooterSF

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Ah, i agree with you both. I just find it interesting. The mind can obviously influence the body (think of a hot naked woman and the influence is hard to ignore!) I don't buy into the spiritual side of it, what i mean is, our bodies heal themselves every day, but it's basically on auto pilot. There could very well be a way of focusing or strenghtening this healing with the right training. That seems a lot more plausable to me than magic.

It does seem plausible but yet no one has been able to do it under test conditions that I'm aware of which either means it's not possible, it's plausible but we haven't figured out how or someone(s) somewhere may have stumbled on it but their methods are not mainstream enough to come in for testing and therefore your chance of contacting someone who is able to do it correctly would be like a certain needle in haystack situation.