Changing over to Orijen - problem.

paultf

This past week I have been changing my 3 cockers over from Burns to Orijen - gradually reducing Burns each day.

All was going well up to yesterday. For breakfast the dogs had there last meal of Burns/Orijen. For some reason Kelly, the youngest at 1 year old, who normally eats everything, only ate some of her breakfast.

Then last night they had there first full meal of Orijen, this time Kelly refused to eat anything. (The other 2 gobbled it up!) So I toke away the Orijen and gave her some Burns but she only ate some of it.

This morning when I got up there was diarrhoea all over the floor. She refused the Orijen for breakfast and only ate some of the Burns.

On google I found some people saying that their dog got an upset stomach when starting on Orijen. (High protein?) Did this happen to anyone here?

So it looks like Kelly has an upset stomach. Tonight I am going to cook rice & chicken for her. How long would I have to do that for?

When should I start mixing back in the Orijen?

Have them on Orijen Adult (chicken, turkey, salmon, etc.) - would a change in flavour help, like fish?

Should I go with a food with lower protein - Acana or Taste Of The Wild?

As anyone found that Orijen just didn't suit their dog at all?

Thanks.

tk123

GAH! What a nightmare! Especially trying to get the 3 of them switched over and everyone suited! I've been thinking of switching to TOTW from JWB cereal free - we're not having any probs with the JWB but TOTW seems like better quality and is better value..but this is why I'm hesitating!
Anyhoos I would go with chicken and rice until she's back to normal then start gradually mixing in the Orijen and see how she gets on. Also maybe slow it down a little and do it over a few weeks for her rather than just one - this is what I did when we changed over and didn't have any probs but when I did it faster previously it didn't go as well.

paultf

Just gave Kelly some cooked chicken & rice. Normally she has a great appetite - in fact she eats too quickly. She picked out mostly the chicken bits and left most of the food.

She is not drinking much water and this is day 2 so I am wondering is she dehydrated aswell?

Could it be the Orijen or maybe something else? Should I go to the vets tomorrow?

EDIT: Kelly just vomited up some of the chicken. Silly Q: what can a vet give to speed recovery from an upset stomach? (What I can't understand is she was happily eating the Burns/Orijen combination for 5/6 days so why the problems now?)

star-pants

Oddly enough same thing happened us when we tried to switch from RC to Luaths - the mix was ok, they got used to it, we spread it out over nearly two weeks because Daisy has such a sensitive stomach. When we got to the first day of just Luaths, similar as yourself, she wasn't keen on it but ate a good bit of it in the end.
Then we had a day or so of her vomiting and diarrhoea the poor thing just kept being ill / toilet and would be shaking getting back into her basket. I felt awful.
We starved her until the evening where we gave her a tiny bit of chicken and rice (like a spoonful) and she managed to keep it down. Later that night we gave her a tiny bit more. The next day she wasn't as bad, no vomiting anyway. We kept her on small amounts of chicken and rice for that day and the next then mixed in some RC and gradually she got back on her RC and was grand again.

I couldn't understand, the same as you why the first day of just the new food reacted so violently with her system.
With your Kelly though, maybe ring the vet first thing and ask their advice. I did that with the first day of Daisy expelling from both ends and they just told me to starve her until the evening and then see if she'd take some chicken & rice, only a tiny bit.

tk123

Last time my guy was sick it was really really bad and he wouldn't eat or drink either and got lethargic. I took him to the vets and he got a shot for the nausea and we def got pills - I think maybe antibiotics but he'd been gradually getting worse over a few days so it looked like a bug? I'd already tried fasting him for 24 hours but when I started trying to give him food again he couldn't hold it down so it was going on at least 48 hours - the vet was going to take him in the next day for IVs if he didn't improve. NB the vet told me 24 hours fasting is fine but after that you should feed small and often...
Anyhoos I decided to try some Marmite in his water and he lapped it up and didn't get sick then I started with a spoon of wet sensitivity control at a time and no probs and he bounced back.
Diarsanyl is really good too - I always have some just in case so maybe get some ProKolin off the vet? I like vanilla and the diarsanyl smells of vanilla so that's really the only reason I get it over the ProKolin lol!! :pac:

paultf

star-pants wrote: »

We kept her on small amounts of chicken and rice for that day and the next then mixed in some RC and gradually she got back on her RC and was grand again.

Star-pants,

So is Daisy only on RC? Did you ever manage to get her on to Luath?

I was wondering as I was hoping to get my 3 all onto Orijen - just makes it easier - I don't fancy different brands for different dogs.

star-pants

paultf wrote: »

Star-pants,

So is Daisy only on RC? Did you ever manage to get her on to Luath?

I was wondering as I was hoping to get my 3 all onto Orijen - just makes it easier - I don't fancy different brands for different dogs.

Nope they're both back on RC, no point in having two different foods (it also makes it difficult then too). I didn't want to put her through it again, let Lily finish off the Luaths mixed with RC for a while.

I'd ask your vet maybe if they think you could try again when Kelly's recovered, but it does seem maybe the Orijen is too much for her? would it be tough to keep her on a mix?

paultf

star-pants wrote: »

I'd ask your vet maybe if they think you could try again when Kelly's recovered, but it does seem maybe the Orijen is too much for her? would it be tough to keep her on a mix?

Not sure what I am going to do. I was really hoping to give a grain-free diet a go. I'll talk to the vet tomorrow and if needs be I'll bring Kelly in to get something to get over the upset stomach.

Maybe what I might do is slowly re-introduce her to Orijen over a longer period ~ 2-4 weeks. Maybe I did it too quickly for her over 7 days.

Might also do some searching of some of the Canadian/American forums/sites where there would be lots of Orijen users to get some information.

tk123

Is there a reason why you didn't try Burns cereal free? I didn't try it because when he was on Burns I could never get his coat shiny!
I had worked out that the rice in his Luath was the problem so we went from Luath -> Happy Dog Ireland (barley instead of rice) -> Happy Dog Africa which is grain free but too expensive -> JWB cereal free. The only reason I tried HD Ireland is because it was the only one on my list that Maxi Zoo had in stock and I wanted to start changing asap as he was going to be going to kennels and then on crate rest for an operation so I wanted it all boxed off first and didn't want to wait a week for delivery.

paultf

tk123 wrote: »

Is there a reason why you didn't try Burns cereal free?

I wanted to try a grain free food but one with a high protein since I was hearing great reports about it.

Anyways, the transition to Orijen hasn't worked.

At the start of the week Clara refused to eat her food and vomitted that evening & night. I thought she picked up something when we were out for a walk. Now I think it was the Orijen.

Then Kelly had diarrhoea.

Then I noticed last night Darby had 3 red patches on his body. Examining it closer, it seems the hair had fallen out and now it was down to bare red skin.

Fortunately both Orijen and the online pet store have a guarantee so I can return the food.

I think a previous boardie said "if your dog is doing OK on a food, don't change." Wise observation. Live and learn.

star-pants

oh dear, it must have been affecting them all then
shame, but as you say if they're ok on what they're on, stick with it unless there's a good enough reason to try changing again.

I hope they all get better soon!

tk123

Ah poor babies Thanks for sharing though - I'll stick with JWB for the time being! Ideally I'd prefer to go raw but it just not feasible at the moment.

andreac

Be careful it doesnt cause Hot Spots, as some of those high protein foods can cause hot spots, like they do on my rottie. Both Royal Canin and Hills cause my fella to break out in really bad ones.

I would take them off it straight away as it looks like its causing major problems.

paultf

Just got a phone call from Bern Pet Foods in the UK - they are the sole distributor of Orijen in the UK and Ireland. (I got the food from www.petfoodexpresstoyou.com and they accept returns.)

The nutritionist expressed surprise that it happened to 3 dogs in one go. She never heard of a dog on Orijen losing hair before.

She did agree that some dogs do get upset stomach's on high protein food.

She wants to get a sample of the food tested.

I am just happy it's over. I have Darby and Clara back on Burns. Kelly will be on cooked chicken & rice for a few days.

Also its great the way they are taking the food back - 2 bags. I have to pay €18 for return by courier. If I splashed out on Zooplus and bought 2 bags on special, and they didn't work out, I'd be at a loss.

paultf

andreac wrote: »

Be careful it doesnt cause Hot Spots, as some of those high protein foods can cause hot spots.

A few years ago that happened to me on Orijen. I got a sample and gave it all to Darby - without mixing - he got a hotspot.

This time I have been mixing the food so hopefully it will be OK.

paultf

Just thought I'd post the email below from Orijen which I got today. Might help someone switching from a low to a high protein food like Orijen.

On their website and on the back of the bag of food, Orijen suggest 5-7 days for transitioning. I followed those guidelines and it didn't work.

In the email Orijen are suggesting mixing food for a few months, or trying a different flavour or trying Acana first (lower protein) & then switching back to Orijen. Alot of work.

Funny thing is if Orijen were quicker in getting back to me I might have given it a go. But I sent the food back.

All I can say is if you are going to switch to a higher protein food do it over a long time. Its not nice putting your dog through an upset stomach.

Email from Orijen
==============

Good Afternoon Paul,

Thank you for taking the time to write us an email. I am very sorry for the delayed response.

It sounds to me that the dog is having sensitive tummy issues. Because our ORIJEN diets are nutrient dense, they are very rich. Some dogs need a longer period of time to transition. I would slow down the transition and mix 90% old food with 10% new food for a few days, then 80% old 20% new for a few days, then 70% old and 30% new for a few days, and so on until you have completely transitioned over to the new diet. There is no right or wrong way, if you find you still need to mix the two diets for a few months until the dog is eased on the ORIJEN, then that will be fine.

With sensitive tummies, even the tiniest change in diet or ingredients can cause digestive upset. You are going from 20% protein to 80% protein with ORIJEN. I would try to figure out what sensitivities the dog has, so you can better control the outcome. You may find the dog will respond better to another protein source (like fish or red meat) or by removing a particular ingredient from the diet.

One other suggestion you could try would be transitioning the dog to ACANA Wild prairie first then onto the ORIJEN Adult. They both contain the same FRESH ingredients, but ACANA has a lower meat inclusion. This subtle difference may be what the dog needs in order to digest the kibble, since the ORIJEN diets are very rich and nutrient dense.

ACANA and ORIJEN diets both reflect our belief in “Biologically Appropriateness, and “Fresh Regional Ingredients”.
Five of the main points of difference are summarized below:

1. MEAT CONCENTRATION: ORIJEN is made with 75-80% meat, while ACANA has between 45 to 65%, depending on the formula.
2. PROTEIN: ORIJEN diets range between 38% and 42% protein, while ACANA features protein levels of 25-35%.
3. CARBOHYDRATE: ORIJEN diets have less than 25% carbohydrate NFE, while ACANA diets are typically in the 28-30% carbohydrate range.
4. AMOUNT OF FRESH MEAT: ORIJEN is made with 40% to 45% of fresh meats, compared with ACANA which includes fresh meats of 15% or more.
5. FRESH MEAT VARIETY: ORIJEN features a minimum of 5 fresh meats, compared to ACANA which contains 3 different fresh meat ingredients.

Again, this may be what the dogs need in order to transition to our diets. I hope this information helps, please let me know how the dog is doing. If you have any other questions or concerns please feel free to write back to me. GOOD LUCK!
Have a fantastic day,
Angela
Customer Care
Champion Petfoods LP

Cherry Blossom

OP - RCs Cocker specific food has 25% protein and RC in general are near the top of the list of manufacturers that have the highest levels of protein in their foods. I'm not an RC fan but it does speak volumes to me that this is so much lower than their non breed-specific foods. There are a lot of breeds that cannot cope with such high protein levels. I found breed specific forums to be a wealth of information in cases such as this. Breeders are usually the best source of advice on nutrition for a specific breed as they have found the best balance through trial and error over generations of dogs and many feed a diet of commercial food mixed with fresh cooked food. It's quite possible the science hasn't caught up yet, this was certainly the case with horse feeds - it's only quite recently that the science behind it has validated that the feeding methods folks with experience had been using with horses for decades were correct.

Dogs have evolved as much as we have and the human diet and nutrition needs has changed drasticly in that time. As a kid my nan was fed pure animal fat spread on bread on a daily basis and suffered no ill effects or becoming over-weight - in fact is was needed to keep them warm at night as there was no heating in the house.

The advice I was given from Burns nutritionist was if I was reducing protein intake it would need to be done slowly over 3 months, it takes dogs at least 6 weeks to adjust fully to a new diet, and one so drasticly different in its nutritional analysis is bound to cause some sort of negative reaction.

(I don't think you can publish the contents of a private e-mail btw unless you have express permission from Orijen to do so).

One thing to note is that fresh meat is not 80% meat, it's 80% water so what you are feeding with Orijen is highly concentrated protein as the water content has been removed.

paultf

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

OP - RCs Cocker specific food has 25% protein and RC in general are near the top of the list of manufacturers that have the highest levels of protein in their foods. I'm not an RC fan but it does speak volumes to me that this is so much lower than their non breed-specific foods. There are a lot of breeds that cannot cope with such high protein levels. I found breed specific forums to be a wealth of information in cases such as this. Breeders are usually the best source of advice on nutrition for a specific breed as they have found the best balance through trial and error over generations of dogs and many feed a diet of commercial food mixed with fresh cooked food. It's quite possible the science hasn't caught up yet, this was certainly the case with horse feeds - it's only quite recently that the science behind it has validated that the feeding methods folks with experience had been using with horses for decades were correct.

Dogs have evolved as much as we have and the human diet and nutrition needs has changed drasticly in that time. As a kid my nan was fed pure animal fat spread on bread on a daily basis and suffered no ill effects or becoming over-weight - in fact is was needed to keep them warm at night as there was no heating in the house.

The advice I was given from Burns nutritionist was if I was reducing protein intake it would need to be done slowly over 3 months, it takes dogs at least 6 weeks to adjust fully to a new diet, and one so drasticly different in its nutritional analysis is bound to cause some sort of negative reaction.

(I don't think you can publish the contents of a private e-mail btw unless you have express permission from Orijen to do so).

One thing to note is that fresh meat is not 80% meat, it's 80% water so what you are feeding with Orijen is highly concentrated protein as the water content has been removed.

I didn't think there was a problem with publishing emails from a pet food company on a forum? I have posted emails from Burns before on boards. And I have come across emails on other forums too. I mean anytime I got back an informative email from a food company, the main reason why I would post it would be help other users. The information contained in the email wasn't on Orijen's website as far as I could see and if it was I would have transitioned the food over a longer period. And my dog wouldn't have got a stomach upset (maybe). So I was just trying to be helpful.

I did some research on Orijen before trying it out. One of the main sites I checked out was www.cockersonline.co.uk and alot of users on that forum use Orijen. So as far as I know cockers can handle the higher protein. I think I was just unfortunate the way it worked out for my dogs.

In addition to that when I went looking for information on Orijen online there was a huge difference in what I found. Loads of positives. But also negatives. For example: if you overfeed on Orijen dogs become drowsey or Orijen is only suitable to highly active dogs. This kinda info is not on their website as far as I can see.

I hope I didn't give the impression in my post that I was knocking Orijen. Orijen is a very good food and that is why I gave it a go. Judging by this forum and others, lots of people are having great success with Orijen. I just wished the food worked with mine.