Another non paid link building question....

seachto7

Hi all,

I am mainly a PPC guy but have been doing some SEO this year. I have pretty much been doing paid link building and article marketing. Mixed results, and the more I read about paid link building, the more I hear it's a no-no from Google's point of view. So I think I need to change strategy apart from the article marketing.

I will leave on page SEO aside for a moment and just look at off page SEO.

There are a lot of resources online to help, but a pointer here would be good to nudge me on my way. For promoting IRE and UK sites, for example, should I just focus on paid web directories (where to start here), article sites, social bookmarking sites etc.?

One site in particular is a UK site, and so is not ranking well at all in the UK. The Irish version is faring out better....

I am not totally "in the know" for what is hot in SEO for 2012. I have been using the same method for the year, and would like to see if there are more alternatives to be explored. Is the answer "how long is a piece of string?"

Cheers

Baidin

Paid links are dodgy. They provide almost no value for new sites, certainly long term. There's a great Whiteboard Friday on SEOMoz about where you should go for links, well worth a look. Basically make sure you have all your social media links covered off including Google+, which if I am not mistaken is a followed link. Also look at submitting your sites to StumbleUpon, Delicious, Digg etc. There are other things like competitor benchmarking that you could look at but save yourself the few quid. In fact I'd suggest paying for social bookmarks into the article marketing URLs you are doing - building the strength of these pages has less of a likelihood of penalisation and link value does filter through over time. Social bookmarks cost a fraction of what your paid directories do and have a better long-term benefit.

seachto7

I will look into that thanks. I have a few clients with some large budgets put aside for link building, but I don't want to just blow it all on paid link building....

The Apprentice

Link variety is the key ..

Profiles still work..
Blog Posts with pr still work
Articles with pr still work.. ezine and u can get some of the paid ones now.. bmr
umm Unique material on your site will invaluably give you juice.. still works now more than ever

... ... **** its late

Social bookmarkes still work,
Digg stubmle etc
Facebook, google+ and twitter Linkedin Still work ..

Just spam the box off of it but make sure its a wide net.. dont put ure eggs in one basket and you,ll see rises in keywords.

Baidin

The Apprentice wrote: »

Link variety is the key ..

100% agree. Variation on source of links and the type of anchor text used is very important.

Chet Zar

Getting paid links is a bit archaic at this stage and Google does not approve generally speaking - instead of looking for paid links save budget and also improve your results through focusing on generating natural links through social media, blogging, content development and building relationships both online and offline - networking etc.

It's an ongoing process but it's about building a profile naturally - not through paid means which is a murky area.

TsuDhoNimh

seachto7 wrote: »

... the more I read about paid link building, the more I hear it's a no-no from Google's point of view. So I think I need to change strategy apart from the article marketing.

Personally, I'd suggest a full review of your strategy.

Article marketing is fine, as long as it's a small part of a much larger strategy. The quality of the sites used and the quality of the content used will play a major part here. High quality articles on good sites is very different to spun articles on dodgy sites. If it's the corner stone of your link profile it's not a sustainable or, in the majority of cases, successful way to approach it.

The Apprentice wrote: »

Profiles still work

Other than a handful of carefully selected profiles, I'd disagree in the majority of cases. It's not an editorial link, has no relevance, no semantic relationship and due to the abuse they have suffered over time suffer huge devaluing from SEs. Use sparingly as the time and effort (or cost, if paid profiles) can be much more valuable used elsewhere.

The Apprentice wrote: »

umm Unique material on your site will invaluably give you juice.. still works now more than ever

The material itself won't give you juice (well, a minuscule negligible amount for an additional page but adding content for the sake of it will just trip the site under Panda), but there is potential there to gain juice from the links that material can (or should) gather.

The important thing to remember is not to give people something to link to, give them a reason to link to it. Good content isn't good, it needs to be great.

The Apprentice wrote: »

Social bookmarkes still work,
Digg stubmle etc
Facebook, google+ and twitter Linkedin Still work ..

At this point, it's moving away from link building and moving into the realms of social media marketing. Sure, have your profiles optimised and have clear and direct links back to the relevant domains, but the real value in these sources comes from the traffic generated through positive engagements. Even with the social bookmarking, it's far more about 'how you use it' than simply being about using it (e.g. just blindly submitting to sites has little value, doing it with the correct strategies in place however can be valuable).

The Apprentice wrote: »

Just spam the box off of it but make sure its a wide net.. dont put ure eggs in one basket and you,ll see rises in keywords.

You could, but you really shouldn't and don't want to.

Whether you want to consider it in terms of the risks of ethics (a personal call), your clients getting burned (and your brand destroyed as a result), updated algorithm changes making it a complete waste of time or even just in terms of the efficiency of your strategies; the spammy muck that is sometimes masqueraded as 'SEO' (spam isn't SEO, it's spam) is never a good call. It's a cheap one, an easy one, but never a good one.

seachto7

Ok, so I know what I have to do (the fundamentals). Where do I go now. For example, I know I have to source good paid directories. Is it just a case of looking for these and finding what works, or should I only go for the tried and trusted ones... (say, choosing joeant and other like them....)

One thing I would like to explore is how to automate bulk submissions to all social bookmarking sites, rather than having to manually do it all the time...

The problem is with smaller clients, the hours aren't there to be submitting articles and content and blogging, and commenting on forums all the time, so it's just a case of picking a few each month, and trying them.

Even on the question of blogging, how do you what are good blog sites to submit to. Should it all be based on their page rank?

TsuDhoNimh

seachto7 wrote: »

I know I have to source good paid directories.

Drop the 'paid' from that line and you're closer to the truth. The vast majority of paid directories aren't worth the time required for submission, never mind the cost.

As for 'which ones' it really depends on the industry, the niche within that industry, the geolocation of the business and of the target market; so there's no one size fits all answer.

seachto7 wrote: »

One thing I would like to explore is how to automate bulk submissions to all social bookmarking sites, rather than having to manually do it all the time...

The value of social bookmarking seldom, if ever, comes from the 'submission'.

Each bookmarking site will have different quirks and systems in place that control the reach and viral nature of a submission. You need to develop strategies to ensure that the site provides a valuable asset in terms of the traffic generated. If you're only blindly submitting, you're probably not generating enough traffic or juice to warrant the time required.

As for bulk submission tools, there are loads out there if you search but again... this isn't the right way to approach social bookmarking so my advice is to read up more on the correct techniques and develop your own strategies tailored for specific clients.

seachto7 wrote: »

Even on the question of blogging, how do you what are good blog sites to submit to. Should it all be based on their page rank?

If you're providing this SEO help as a paid service there's a LOT of reading to be done on the fundamentals. To see (toolbar) PageRank mentioned as a way of evaluating an inbound link in 2012 is slightly scary, even Google have gone so far as to discredit their own measurement in public (that said, they did go so far as to roll back on a PR update last year as their own domain dropped to a 9 due to increases for competitor domains).

There are far better tools out there to help evaluate a page (something like the SEOmoz toolbar provides far more beneficial information than PR), but you shouldn't need to rely on a tool to evaluate it. A quick look at the domain, a review of its relevancy and a quick assessment of its backlink profile should be more than enough to know if it's a valuable link (and just how valuable it might be). As your knowledge increases and you figure out how to assess a site architecture, understand the flow of internal links and gauge how a link on a subpage will fit into that structure, you'll soon be able to make accurate assessments very quickly from a quick glance.

seachto7

Great reply for me there. It's the techniques I need to explore. I think I am doing a lot of stuff blind. Basically I am doing some small level SEO stuff through someone else, I don't advertise it myself, as I am no expert. In fact I haven't had to use my own site to generate work for a while, so it is neglected, something I need to address, and should be a good guinea pig for me...

Some of these clients are saying "We have €100 to put towards link building", so I am thinking, "ok, how do I spend this wisely, if I do indeed spend it at all..."

They are niche clients too, some with multilingual sites.

As you mentioned, it's developing correct techniques to suit a client's strategy is my objective. I am kind of peeing in the wind to see what happens...

A lot of these cliens have new sites that they want to rank, and see to think throwing a link building budget at it will get them started...

TsuDhoNimh

seachto7 wrote: »

Some of these clients are saying "We have €100 to put towards link building"...

Heh, I've had potential clients say the exact same thing yet want to rank for [home insurance] or [dublin hotel]. Needless to say they moved from 'potential' to non-clients very quickly.

seachto7

I know, but these are fairly niche or non competitve, as in, they would probably rank easy in the long run. I am not fully sure how to spend their €100

Chet Zar

seachto7 wrote: »

I know, but these are fairly niche or non competitve, as in, they would probably rank easy in the long run. I am not fully sure how to spend their €100

€100 might be enough to fund a supply of coffee to start on the SEO work

Seriously though, that might get them a couple of hours SEO work - I would first start by trying to educate them on the value of SEO (although I appreciate you are new-ish to it yourself).

If the area is truly niche/not very competitive, a combination of good on-page optimisation, blogging/content and forum posts could be enough to get them good rankings. However, €100 won't get them very far if you value your time mate.

seachto7

what I should have said was I have been given X amount of retainer hours per month,and an additional €100 for link building, so if I don't spend it, they might ask me why....

Chet Zar

seachto7 wrote: »

what I should have said was I have been given X amount of retainer hours per month,and an additional €100 for link building, so if I don't spend it, they might ask me why....

Are you sure you should have agreed to take this job on in the first place?

If you give us a hint as to what niche/area the site is in, I'd say we'll be able to give you some better pointers. As it is, all we can give is just some generic SEO tips/guidance.

You need to be careful here, because if you go running around adding to directories and/or doing bulk automation, you run the risk of the site being penalised or being seen in a bad light...SEO is an ongoing process that requires due diligence and a careful approach - not using 100 quid to throw at random directories etc.

I would just say to them that you are going to amalgamate the 100 euro into the overall retainer budget - or just say directory submission won't cost anything and that you will be submitting to various (reputable, of course) directories as a matter of course as part of the overall hours.

seachto7

Chet Zar wrote: »

Are you sure you should have agreed to take this job on in the first place?

If you give us a hint as to what niche/area the site is in, I'd say we'll be able to give you some better pointers. As it is, all we can give is just some generic SEO tips/guidance.

You need to be careful here, because if you go running around adding to directories and/or doing bulk automation, you run the risk of the site being penalised or being seen in a bad light...SEO is an ongoing process that requires due diligence and a careful approach - not using 100 quid to throw at random directories etc.

I would just say to them that you are going to amalgamate the 100 euro into the overall retainer budget - or just say directory submission won't cost anything and that you will be submitting to various (reputable, of course) directories as a matter of course as part of the overall hours.

Yes, that's what I was thinking of doing. The company make security systems for business. Their results were a lot better after month 1 than before I started. I will admit there is a lot of on page optimisation to be done, and I haven't gone near paid link building this month, as my experience of it is dodgy to say the least....

Again, it was only a 3 month contract, and to get the site "on the ladder" was one of their objectives, so I think it is within my ability in the short term...

seachto7

Ok, so my next question would be , what are the best tools to use to pursue SEO strategies. Can you get reasonable results for free? (apart from paid directories).

Or is it always worth signing up to things like onlywire, SEOmoz.org and so on.

The whole thing is time, time and more time. As in, I know I would need to submit to multiple social bookmarks, it's trying to find the most efficient way of doing this...........?

To automate or not.....

link8r

Hi SearchTo

You're getting some good advice. Automated/Paid for are just mechanical. It's also very, very easy to detect after a few months. Do you have a waiver that protects you from defective work ? If you cause your client to get banned, could they sue you ? It's worth thinking about.

I setup our seo company in 2004. We've remained on page 1 ever since - even though the index has exploded. 64 million pages for "SEO Ireland". I've never used mechanical SEO and never will.

It scares me, saddens me and somewhat irks me to hear that people consider this. My own blog gets spammed by "SEO" companies who are less than a few miles from our own office. Its lazy and and as the industry matures and Google continues to clamp down and publishes information about good and bad SEO - there comes a time when automated/blackhat SEO pretty much becomes fraud. People who enquire about SEO have moved from "its a dark art" to "we're interested in long term brand building via ethical SEO" - therefore its hard to imagine that your client has sanctioned a service that violates Google's ToS and it would be incumbent on you as the "professional" to be adequately qualified to know that before charging for a service. Therefore, the client is buying a different product to the one you're offering and unfortunately the legal term is "fraud". I'm not saying you are, I'm just pointing out a hypothetical situation.

In the last few years, Google has famously punished some very high profile companies including JC Penney and Forbes.

Ignorance is never a good excuse in professional trade.

seachto7

My problem/confusion is now this: Ok, I want to do some social bookmarking. Should I be doing it manually, or could I use something that would submit a post to multiple social bookmarking sites at once? I mean, I could pick the top 20 social sites, and post to those, but are you saying I should create 20 log ins for each client I am working on? Is there a way to save time here, or is that the answer to my question - it is time intensive...

link8r

seachto7 wrote: »

My problem/confusion is now this: Ok, I want to do some social bookmarking. Should I be doing it manually, or could I use something that would submit a post to multiple social bookmarking sites at once? I mean, I could pick the top 20 social sites, and post to those, but are you saying I should create 20 log ins for each client I am working on? Is there a way to save time here, or is that the answer to my question - it is time intensive...

Its not sinking in is it ? (sorry, too soon?)

Yes - if you want to submit a post, you should have an account.

Here's why the question is stupid (in hindsight for some) - if you dont have any followers, interaction or history - why post it in the first place? Did you read that social bookmarking is important on a webpage?

SEO has a bad name not because of bad consultants but because of the millions of bad SEO blogs that give advice like "social bookmarking is good for SEO". And then it just becomes a numbers game.

Submit is a word that should be deleted from the SEO bible. Nobody need submit anything. Content is king (well, with caveats).

Chet Zar

Words you should drop from your vocab seachto:

'submit'

'automate'

'bulk'

'upload'

These are major red flags straight away, and the domain of someone who wants to do things the lazy/easy way. SEO is about putting in the effort and reaping the (very attractive in many cases) rewards and kudos in the mid to long term.

I would go back to the drawing board and approach things from that angle - communicating to your client that there are no quick wins, there is no throwing a few quid at it and seeing what sticks - and that pursuing those kind of strategies is only going to reflect badly on both of you.

link8r

Chet Zar wrote: »

Words you should drop from your vocab seachto:

'submit'

'automate'

'bulk'

'upload'

I would go back to the drawing board and approach things from that angle - communicating to your client that there are no quick wins, there is no throwing a few quid at it and seeing what sticks - and that pursuing those kind of strategies is only going to reflect badly on both of you.

I'm sorry for paraphrasing in the quote marks Chet Zar but I agree with everything you've said!

seachto7

No offence taken about it sinking in or not.
I think I have to go back to the drawing board.
Tips I have picked up from some (but not all) people in SEO have looked at paid and non paid methods. Non paid being the key one here, I know one person who would use unpaid methods, then throw 50 quid at a paid link building package for a "short term boost"....

I need to go back to the drawing board in how I am approaching it though...

Chet Zar

link8r wrote: »

I'm sorry for paraphrasing in the quote marks Chet Zar but I agree with everything you've said!

Ha, no worries! Good to be on the same page

Chet Zar

seachto7 wrote: »

No offence taken about it sinking in or not.
I think I have to go back to the drawing board.
Tips I have picked up from some (but not all) people in SEO have looked at paid and non paid methods. Non paid being the key one here, I know one person who would use unpaid methods, then throw 50 quid at a paid link building package for a "short term boost"....

I need to go back to the drawing board in how I am approaching it though...

Cool sounds good - and you can always come back to us for tips along the way.

seachto7

So, I spent the evening looking for German directories to submit a German URL to. I noticed that some of them cost a few euro to submit to. I haven't submitted to these yet. I just submitted to ones with better PR (I know this might not really matter, but as a rule of thumb, I started with the free ones I could find with good PR). Some were in German, some in English.
Am I on the right path?

link8r

seachto7 wrote: »

So, I spent the evening looking for German directories to submit a German URL to. I noticed that some of them cost a few euro to submit to. I haven't submitted to these yet. I just submitted to ones with better PR (I know this might not really matter, but as a rule of thumb, I started with the free ones I could find with good PR). Some were in German, some in English.
Am I on the right path?

Paid links and paying for editorial are two separate things - semantics: the devil is in the detail. Human edited directories/sites cost money to run and that's not the same as buying links. Ultimately, spam is bad for the internet. Its a bit like everyone throwing rubbish out of your car window and claiming "but I'm just one person, how bad it can be" - well the rest of humanity has to wade through that rubbish....

seachto7

I see what you mean...