Do i need Carbon Monoxide alarms?

Dcully

Hi folks,i hope this is in the right forum.
Im just wondering if i need one or more Carbon Monoxide alarms.
We have an oil burner outside, its connected to the wall of two bedrooms on the outside, do i need alarms in these bedrooms?
The only other appliance we have is a stove in the living room, im guessing we need one for here ?

djk1000

Any room with an open fire too!

Avns1s

If the boiler and its flue are completely external then you don't need any carbon monoxide alarm in those rooms. By "attached", I am assuming that you mean that the boiler housing is attached to the external wall of those rooms.

You should get one for the room with the stove.

Micky Dolenz

Yes, you need a CO alarm

Every carbon based fuel will produce CO. That's every single fuel we burn, be it coal, timber, turf, oil, gas.

If you have a carbon burning appliance in a habitable area, fit a CO alarm there.

Dcully

Thanks folks, ordering an alarm straight away.

DGOBS

Remember:

When placing CO alarms

If located in the room where the appliance is, place the alarm on the ceiling
or at high level, within 3m of the appliance and NOT within 300mm of a wall/ceiling corner

If located in a room WITHOUT an appliance, place the alarm at normal breathing height and NOT within 300mm of a wall/ceiling corner, if in a bedroom (without an appliance) pillow height would be best

Always place the alarm in an area where it will be heard, seen many in utility rooms with the boiler, not a chance in the world of hearing it in the livingroom!

To improve this situation there is alarms available what can wirelessly interlink, so they will all alarm if one picks up CO

CO ALARMS DO NOT FALSE ALARM, UNLIKE SMOKE ALARMS, ALWAYS TREAT AN TRIGGERED ALARM AS SERIOUS, TURN OFF APPLIANCES, OPEN WINDOWS/DOORS, GET FRESH AIR IF SYMPTOMS ARE EVIDENT

Make sure to have your installation checked.

Initial reports coming from that poor family in Sligo just before christmas that lost their lives, suggests a simple plastic bag was placed on the fire and went up to block the chimney, 2 children, a father and 2 dogs lost their lives

CO ALARMS COST AS LITTLE AS €12 AND LAST FOR 5 YEARS

DGOBS

To the mods:
would be nice to have a good detailed sticky post here for CO alarms, prevention, detection, symtoms etc

Worztron

We have a gas boiler and gas cooker in the kitchen. The front room and kitchen fireplaces are not used.

Should I put the CO detector in the downstairs hall?

Micky Dolenz

No. Put them in the room where the used appliances are.

Worztron

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

No. Put them in the room where the used appliances are.

But I read this on another site: "Do not install detectors within 15-20 feet of any furnace or fuel burning heat source."

Would that mean I'd have to have it the downstairs hall and leave the kitchen door open at night?

Micky Dolenz

Worztron wrote: »

But I read this on another site: "Do not install detectors within 15-20 feet of any furnace or fuel burning heat source."

Would that mean I'd have to have it the downstairs hall and leave the kitchen door open at night?

Have you a link for that?

Worztron

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Have you a link for that?

Sure, here you go: http://www.usinspect.com/blog/where-should-i-put-my-carbon-monoxide-detector

Billy Bunting

DGOBS wrote: »

To the mods:
would be nice to have a good detailed sticky post here for CO alarms, prevention, detection, symtoms etc

Agree totally, got to be an important topic, should have it with flashing lights and bells dangling from it.

paddy147

Worztron wrote: »

But I read this on another site: "Do not install detectors within 15-20 feet of any furnace or fuel burning heat source."

Would that mean I'd have to have it the downstairs hall and leave the kitchen door open at night?

Excuse me for being blunt here but............................

Pretty bloody well useless out in a hallway,if you fall asleep and die in the sitting room due to being poisoned/gassed to death from the fire/stove/applience and the CO.

CO alarm goes in the same room as the applience.

GASMANN

Avns1s wrote: »

If the boiler and its flue are completely external then you don't need any carbon monoxide alarm in those rooms. By "attached", I am assuming that you mean that the boiler housing is attached to the external wall of those rooms.

You should get one for the room with the stove.

thats dangerous talk

Worztron

paddy147 wrote: »

Excuse me for being blunt here but............................

Pretty bloody well useless out in a hallway,if you fall asleep and die in the sitting room due to being poisoned/gassed to death from the fire/stove/applience and the CO.

CO alarm goes in the same room as the applience.

As I mentioned in a previous post ~ I have a gas boiler and gas cooker in the kitchen (that is all).

Micky Dolenz

Get the detectors and follow manufactures instructions, is your best bet.

slave1

DGOBS wrote: »

Remember:

When placing CO alarms

If located in the room where the appliance is, place the alarm on the ceiling
or at high level, within 3m of the appliance and NOT within 300mm of a wall/ceiling corner

If located in a room WITHOUT an appliance, place the alarm at normal breathing height and NOT within 300mm of a wall/ceiling corner, if in a bedroom (without an appliance) pillow height would be best

I got two CO alarms in the post yesterday from Amazon and your post is in direct contradiction to the manufacturers location advice.

If located in the room where the appliance is, place the alarm within a metre of the floor, preferably outside 3m of the appliance and not within 300mm of a wall/ceiling corner

If located in a room WITHOUT an appliance, place the alarm under 1 metre and not within 300mm of a wall/ceiling corner.

I have one in the sitting room with a stove and as it's a two storey (all bedrooms upstairs) have one about 60cm up from floor level on the landing.

GASMANN

slave1 wrote: »

I got two CO alarms in the post yesterday from Amazon and your post is in direct contradiction to the manufacturers location advice.

If located in the room where the appliance is, place the alarm within a metre of the floor, preferably outside 3m of the appliance and not within 300mm of a wall/ceiling corner

If located in a room WITHOUT an appliance, place the alarm under 1 metre and not within 300mm of a wall/ceiling corner.

I have one in the sitting room with a stove and as it's a two storey (all bedrooms upstairs) have one about 60cm up from floor level on the landing.

i cant see the installation instructions through your link but id be inclined to agree with dgobs

all i could come up with was this
https://portalgb.knowledgebase.net/al/15121/16372/article.aspx?aid=298541&tab=browse&bt=4&r=0.7113215
but its in american!

DGOBS

The specific gravity of CO is nearly the same as air, in proximity to an appliance the CO will naturally follow the convection current generated by the heating appliance, so the highest concentration would be found at high level.

When in a room without the heating appliance, CO would be found at all levels, as it's humans we are trying to protect, breathing height would always be best.

This seems also to be the opinion of one of the worlds leading manufacturers of CO alarms (based in ireland!) EI electronics

The alarms you got from amazon, do they carry an EN standard? Kite marked?
Carry an end of life indicator?

slave1

The instruction are with the alarm, not on the Amazon website, I've looked further and this appears to be a good article.

It suggests....

"Installation locations vary by manufacturer. Manufacturers' recommendations differ to a certain degree based on research conducted with each one's specific detector. Therefore, make sure to read the provided installation manual for each detector before installing."

If does however state....

"Homeowners should remember not to install carbon monoxide detectors directly above or beside fuel-burning appliances, as appliances may emit a small amount of carbon monoxide upon start-up. A detector should not be placed within fifteen feet of heating or cooking appliances"

which suggests DGOBS advice in placement within 3M is questionable.

Listen, I'm not here to start an argument, I just noticed the advice on the product I purchased was in direct contradiction of a post here so rather than have ill-adviced placement thought it an idea to post an alternate view.
The product has all the critera you outlined in previous post and I've positioned my alarms per manufacturer's guidance.

DGOBS

Carbon monoxide alarms would/should not alarm from an appliance starting up, as they have to be exposed to CO for specific time periods before alarm to prevent false alarms on flue less appliance startup. this is contained within the manufacturing EN standard for CO alarms

Re hobs, the maximum these appliance can allow is 30ppm to the room (ambient), manufacturers instructions may vary alright, but the properties of CO are cast in stone, as are the values appliances can generate.

Regarding 15 feet from a cooking appliance has some merit, but a lot of kitchens are less than this distance, on consulting with someone involved in the testing and certification of CO alarms there feeling is that the sensor of this alarm may not be of as high a quality and the reason for the distance is nothing to do with CO more to do with the sensors ability to live near the heat generated by the appliance.

EI electronics guidelines for their products is between 1-3 meters for the appliance, preferably to the side of the appliance (again heat being an issue) at high level

In saying all of that, you must follow your MI, but as I have said here before, this Irish brand of CO alarms are top of the food chain.

Worztron

If I kept the single CO detector in the hallway with all doors closed at night (I think the fire service advise this re fires). Would that suffice re CO detection?

DGOBS

Would be better to have one alarm in the rooms where appliances are located and another in the bedroom area

Preferably the ones that wirelessly interlink with each other

Lex Luthor

DGOBS wrote: »

this Irish brand of CO alarms are top of the food chain.

What constitutes top of the food chain?

Worztron

Would CO travel under a closed door or through a floor (e.g. into a bedroom over a kitchen)? Lets say all doors are closed in the house.

anuprising

yes any where there is air , co can travel or occupy

why a lot of people wake up groggy , old boilers downstairs with broken down seals or flues emitting low level carbon monoxide and dioxide , travels thru floor boards and into bedrooms . this is why it's imperative to have alarms upstairs also , as this might only be happening when your heating comes on at 6am and impossible to detect downstairs but enough to make you groggy or sleepy upstairs - best present you can ever give yourself is co detectors and fresh air , combined with a yearly service to include safety check

Worztron

anuprising wrote: »

yes any where there is air , co can travel or occupy

why a lot of people wake up groggy , old boilers downstairs with broken down seals or flues emitting low level carbon monoxide and dioxide , travels thru floor boards and into bedrooms . this is why it's imperative to have alarms upstairs also , as this might only be happening when your heating comes on at 6am and impossible to detect downstairs but enough to make you groggy or sleepy upstairs - best present you can ever give yourself is co detectors and fresh air , combined with a yearly service to include safety check

We only ever turn on heating at night and it is off when everyone is in bed. But thanks for the info.

crazygeryy

Can someone answer me this please.what the hell did they do 30(or more).years ago when every single house had an open burning fire and burned anything in it and they had no co alarms?
Why all the fuss now? has the fuel changed in some way?

Lex Luthor

anuprising wrote: »

yes any where there is air , co can travel or occupy

why a lot of people wake up groggy , old boilers downstairs with broken down seals or flues emitting low level carbon monoxide and dioxide , travels thru floor boards and into bedrooms . this is why it's imperative to have alarms upstairs also , as this might only be happening when your heating comes on at 6am and impossible to detect downstairs but enough to make you groggy or sleepy upstairs - best present you can ever give yourself is co detectors and fresh air , combined with a yearly service to include safety check

Are you saying that the CO will travel through a plasterboard ceiling that has been plastered and painted into the room above it?

Unless there is an air path through the plasterboard into the room above it would be virtually impossible for the CO to migrate in the manner you described

More likely to get out of the room downstairs under the door and then get into the hall and spread up the stairs...but you have to remember that the CO is now being diluted with the air in the hall and upstairs

I wake up groggy most mornings but it has absolutely nothing to do with low level CO.

If the CO detector in the room where the appliance is located, has not alarmed for CO, then there is not a cat in hells chance you will have an alarm upstairs

As DGOBS mentioned, CO is roughly the same weight as air so it will fill the room from the source and move out rather than rise like helium would. It will rise slightly as the CO is coming out of the appliance and the air around it is warmed by the appliance (hot air rises), but generally it will fill the room

Lex Luthor

crazygeryy wrote: »

Can someone answer me this please.what the hell did they do 30(or more).years ago when every single house had an open burning fire and burned anything in it and they had no co alarms?
Why all the fuss now? has the fuel changed in some way?

Houses 30yrs ago were not as well insulated and there was plenty fresh air

DGOBS

+1 Co will migrate along any draughts or convection currents

sorry, top of food chain reference was to: they are considered some of the best on the market

Billy Bunting

Lex Luthor wrote: »

Houses 30yrs ago were not as well insulated and there was plenty fresh air

I removed a vent cover before xmas and found the hole completely full of cavity wall beed.

sparkfireman

Listen guys. Just going to nail this CO alarm debate thats going on.

If u have an oil or gas appliance in a sitting room, kitchen, bedroom, bathroom etc put a CO detector on the ceiling in the middle of the room.

With open fires, non oil/gas stoves, CO detectors are not compulsary, BUT theres no harm in having them, If theres Smoke, theres CO, so if smoke fills ur room from a fire, then obviously you'd take action to ventilate.

Micky Dolenz

I'd suspect coal/ open fires have poisoned more people then any other co producing appliance.

Avns1s

GASMANN wrote: »

thats dangerous talk

To help you understand why there is no logic to your post, I am posting the OPs original post and my reply. Why on earth would you need to put a CO detector in a room where there is no applicance internal to these rooms? I am assuming that the OP has a CO detector in the room with the stove and that it would be audible from the bedrooms. There would want to be something seriously wrong for the exhaust of an outside boiler to come through the walls and create a lethal level of CO in the bedrooms.

Dcully wrote: »

Hi folks,i hope this is in the right forum.
Im just wondering if i need one or more Carbon Monoxide alarms.
We have an oil burner outside, its connected to the wall of two bedrooms on the outside, do i need alarms in these bedrooms?
The only other appliance we have is a stove in the living room, im guessing we need one for here ?

Avns1s wrote: »

If the boiler and its flue are completely external then you don't need any carbon monoxide alarm in those rooms. By "attached", I am assuming that you mean that the boiler housing is attached to the external wall of those rooms.

You should get one for the room with the stove.