A Proper TNG Sendoff

squonk

I loved the way the TOS era came to a close at the end of Star Trek 6 with Kirk taking the Enterprise for one last jaunt and the actor's autographs tagged onto the credits. It was all very fitting an nicely done.

For TNG's movies, we get the Enterprise D being written off and an E that wasn't shown off enough. At the end of Nemesis they reduced Mr Data, one of the all time great Trek characters to the android equivalent of a vegetable and left us with that image.

Next we get that steaming pile of dung that JJ Abrahams believes is a Trek movie. I would just like to see one last Trek movie with the TNG cast where they go out on a high. Heck, I'd have been quite happy if they'd even handed the E over to JJ & Crew after Picard finished with it. I think we, as die hard TNG fans, were ill-served. Is the TNG movie franchise fully dead at this point? I'm assuming so. The TNG cast deserved a far better send off.

Sad Professor

A film is probably out of the question. TNG failed utterly as a film series. I'd prefer a short mini-series over another potential train-wreck of a film.

Kiith

It already had a proper send off. All Good Things. The poker game was the perfect way end it, and it's still the moment i think of when i think of the end of the series.

nyarlothothep

Sad Professor wrote: »

A film is probably out of the question. TNG failed utterly as a film series. I'd prefer a short mini-series over another potential train-wreck of a film.

I woudn't entirely agree with this statement, financially anyway. Generations was made on a budget of 35 million and made back 118,071,125 million. First Contact was made on 46 million and made 146,000,000 million. Things started to fall apart a bit by the time of Insurrection which made on a budget of 58 million but which still made a respectable 112,600,000 million. Things failed misreably with Nemesis which made roughly 7 million against its original budget of 60 million. This can be attributed to Stuart Baird and a terrible screenplay in addition to the fact that it was released at the worst possible time for a Star Trek movie in between Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (which would predictably draw the punters like Angels and Demons) and LOTR 2.

In terms of critical appraisal the TNG films certainly did fail misreably, Generations was offensive, they killed off Picard's family needlessly just so he'd have a slightly better reason to stay in the Nexus (which made no sense!). The Nexus idea in itself was beyond contemplation, it was such a stupid nonsensical concept that it was almost as if they were taking the p1ss out of everyone.

First Contact was a solid action film, nothing more, nothing less. While I think the Borg Queen went against the original terrifying ethos of the Borg as this completely alien unified intelligence by placing it within the confines of the more pedestrian natural world of this planet in terms of ant and bee hives, I thought Allison Krige did a superb job of portraying her and pretty much stole the film.

Insurrection was an average 2 parter episode of TNG with slightly higher production values. Strangely enough it was closest in spirit to the TNG series but that didn't stop it from feeling like a forgettable half assed film. Still respectable though.

Nemesis was an insult, a complete and utter joke, an offence and a bastardisation of everything TNG stood for. It was worse than Generations in terms of making sense. Suddenly the Remans appear out of nowhere, an entirely new race?! Data suddenly has another brother?! It was awful and effectively made the finale with AGT the true send off for TNG. That was how TNG ended. The first three films are basically epilogues, the last one I discount. Incidentally the B4 becomes Data later on in the TNG comics because of the memory transfer which took place in Nemesis. The comics are apparently canon, so it didn't end all that bad.

In conclusion the films for the most part went against the principles and character arcs of the series in order to appeal to the mainstream. Picard turned into a violent action man in opposition to his character in TNG.

helimachoptor

Kiith wrote: »

It already had a proper send off. All Good Things. The poker game was the perfect way end it, and it's still the moment i think of when i think of the end of the series.

I'd have to agree with that, I almost treat the films as something else, the poke game and the sense of Picards knowledge that this was a special crew etc really comes across in those few seconds.

squonk

Thanks Nyar for mentioning the comics. I've not read them and didn't realise that the B4 story progressed. I agree completely with you. I thought Generations was stupid myself. I felt too that it was a bit of an insult to the hardcore TOS fanbase also. Insurrection was my favourite of the films, probably because it was closest in spirit to the actual show. Nemesis was total muck. I've barely watched it because it's so far removed from the Star Trek TNG I know.

Incidentally, in Generations, when the D developed the warp core breach, why didn't they just eject the warp core? I can't see a major reason why they couldn't. I still feel they just destroyed the ship for the sake of it and the technical reasons for doing so were very shallow. There are so many things I dislike about the films but this is one of the worst.

Ideally I'd love to see a BSG style mini series being made. One that was quite dark and with a real sense of danger would absolutely rule and be exactly the type of send of required. I'd actually like to see it done in a way where Picard is either an admiral or captured and not commanding the ship. I think Riker would be great as a captain in a darker, grittier situation.

All these great possibilities and all we get from Paramount is ST:90210. Let's face it, alternate universe aside, that crew are far too young to be in command of the Enterprise.

norrie rugger

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Incidentally the B4 becomes Data later on in the TNG comics because of the memory transfer which took place in Nemesis. The comics are apparently canon, so it didn't end all that bad.

Agree with your entire post except this.
Did Gene not say once, that unless it is on screen it is not canon

Goldstein

squonk wrote: »

Incidentally, in Generations, when the D developed the warp core breach, why didn't they just eject the warp core? I can't see a major reason why they couldn't. I still feel they just destroyed the ship for the sake of it and the technical reasons for doing so were very shallow. There are so many things I dislike about the films but this is one of the worst.

True. In Cause and Effect:
Geordi: "We've gotta eject the core"
Data: "Ejection systems offline"
so fair enough, at least they mentioned a problem with ejecting it.

But in Generations:
Geordi: "We've five minutes from a warp core breach. There's nothing I can do."
He didn't try anything...except rolling under the door and I'm not sure that was ever gonna fix the problem. Well, yanno, there is one thing you can try Geordi.:D

If I can be equally as pedantic, around the same time Riker tells Worf to prepare a spread of photon torpedos to take out the bird of prey and yet Worf just fires one for dramatic effect.

Riker also tells us: "They'll have 2 seconds of vulnerability" and yet their shields are down for 18 seconds before the dramatic torpedo hits them.

The one that gets me though is the magic missile that travels from the surface of Veridian III (3rd planet from the star and class M remember) to it's star in 14 seconds, 10 of those spent in the atmosphere - so 4 seconds from there to the Star. Screw warp speed! - we've found a warp 10 missile! It's still Einsteinian compared to the idiotic garbage that Abrams & co. came up with but still, pretty big science/writing fail.


Still though, it does have its lessons for us all:

Riker: "Deanna, take the helm...get us out of orbit."
*stuff ensues*
[1:15:08] Deanna: "Engaging impulse engines"

125 seconds later:

squonk wrote: »

All these great possibilities and all we get from Paramount is ST:90210. Let's face it, alternate universe aside, that crew are far too young to be in command of the Enterprise.

Careful now, remember Red Squad and the Valiant

All that you need to know about Abrams' Trek is the following:
Uhura: "I was tracking solar systems..."

There is only one solar system luv, that of our star - Sol :cool:

Myrddin

Goldstein wrote: »

True. In Cause and Effect:
Geordi: "We've gotta eject the core"
Data: "Ejection systems offline"
so fair enough, at least they mentioned a problem with ejecting it.

But in Generations:
Geordi: "We've five minutes from a warp core breach. There's nothing I can do."
He didn't try anything...except rolling under the door and I'm not sure that was ever gonna fix the problem. Well, yanno, there is one thing you can try Geordi.:D

I may be very wrong, but I'm almost sure Troi shouts amongst the chaos of the attack, that "Ejection systems are offline!". If true, your point maintains some merit though, because how would a pychologist be on the bridge, & monitoring engineering info :rolleyes:

Goldstein wrote:

If I can be equally as pedantic, around the same time Riker tells Worf to prepare a spread of photon torpedos to take out the bird of prey and yet Worf just fires one for dramatic effect.

There's a TNG episode, could be a few of them actually, where what appears to be one photon torpedo shot, actually seperate into a horizontal spread.

Goldstein wrote:

Riker also tells us: "They'll have 2 seconds of vulnerability" and yet their shields are down for 18 seconds before the dramatic torpedo hits them.

There's no defense against this, why the script line wasn't 'a few seconds' is beyond me.

Goldstein wrote:

The one that gets me though is the magic missile that travels from the surface of Veridian III (3rd planet from the star and class M remember) to it's star in 14 seconds, 10 of those spent in the atmosphere - so 4 seconds from there to the Star. Screw warp speed! - we've found a warp 10 missile! It's still Einsteinian compared to the idiotic garbage that Abrams & co. came up with but still, pretty big science/writing fail.

Yep, you'd wonder who & where their physics consultations come from.

Goldstein wrote:

Still though, it does have its lessons for us all:

Riker: "Deanna, take the helm...get us out of orbit."
*stuff ensues*
[1:15:08] Deanna: "Engaging impulse engines"

125 seconds later:

To be fair to Troi, it was the stardrive section explosion that caused that

Goldstein wrote:

Careful now, remember Red Squad and the Valiant

That ship had a genuine crew & command structure, command was only handed over after the captain died. She was a training ship is all, albeit a state of the art warship escort vessel :rolleyes:

Goldstein wrote:

All that you need to know about Abrams' Trek is the following:
Uhura: "I was tracking solar systems..."

There is only one solar system luv, that of our star - Sol :cool:

Trek, as we knew it, is dead

norrie rugger

EnterNow wrote: »

To be fair to Troi, it was the stardrive section explosion that caused that

Who was driving in Nemesis, when they crashed into Shinzon's ship?

Myrddin

norrie rugger wrote: »

Who was driving in Nemesis, when they crashed into Shinzon's ship?

It's my least watched of the films, but wasn't that an order/intentionally done?

Edit - are you also saying the stardrive explosion didn't cause the saucer section to crash?

Seph503

norrie rugger wrote: »

Who was driving in Nemesis, when they crashed into Shinzon's ship?

SF Debris does love that running gag. And so do I:D

norrie rugger

EnterNow wrote: »

Edit - are you also saying the stardrive explosion didn't cause the saucer section to crash?

Just saying Troi was driving, that is all;)

GreenWolfe

norrie rugger wrote: »

Just saying Troi was driving, that is all;)

In Nemesis, didn't Troi execute instructions sent to the helm by Picard?

And in Generations, didn't the saucer section crash into the planet because the warp core exploded?

Didn't Troi take the Commander promotion exam and then it was completely forgotten afterwards? She was on the bridge so often you would have thought she would have been given a basic course on ship's operations. So that they wouldn't have a repeat of what happened when the Enterprise-D crashed into a cosmic string.

She was the commanding officer in that emergency, and she had no technical ability whatsoever. Given that commanding officers need to take control once in a while, it's a strange training gap.

Myrddin

EarthlyPangaea wrote: »

In Nemesis, didn't Troi execute instructions sent to the helm by Picard?

And in Generations, didn't the saucer section crash into the planet because the warp core exploded?

I think its yes on both counts, trekkies eh?

EarthlyPangaea wrote:

Didn't Troi take the Commander promotion exam and then it was completely forgotten afterwards? She was on the bridge so often you would have thought she would have been given a basic course on ship's operations. So that they wouldn't have a repeat of what happened when the Enterprise-D crashed into a cosmic string.

She was the commanding officer in that emergency, and she had no technical ability whatsoever. Given that commanding officers need to take control once in a while, it's a strange training gap.

I think initially here presence there was because the primary function of the ship was exploration/diplomacy. Often, her abilities proved useful in first contact situations even over the viewscreen...& because of the size of the ship, I suppose I can see a valid reason for her bridge spot.

You would think though, that anyone posted to the bridge, & held the rank of at Lt. Cmdr, that the bridge officer test would be mandatory

squonk

Agreed! I don't follow Trek religiously, though I used to. I assumed that because she was on the bridge constantly and was a member of the command staff that she had a bridge officer qualification. Otherwise, you might as well have put me in command!

Perhaps I'm imagining it, but I thought there was some form of localised, manual warp core ejection system? Even if I am, there certainly should be when there's the possibility of your main power source potentially going boom and taking the ship and crew with it before having the time to evacuate and separate. I certainly remmeber Geordie manually operating blast doors. Even so, he had plenty of time to attempt to get the ejection system back on line. He's got an engineering staff and is a decent engineer himself. Heck, even if he's taken 3 minutes, he'd have had two minutes to evacuate. I still say the D was far too fine a ship to go out in such a stupid, careless manner. The rot was really starting to set in at that point. As was pointed out though, we have a chief engineer basically doing nothing to avoid the destruction of the ship. Himself and Troy deserved to be court marshalled over their actions but, in reality, the writers need to be taken out and put against a wall.

norrie rugger

Lads, only pulling the piss that they put Troi at the helm both times.

Saying that, why did she steer the saucer section to the gravity well of the planet?
Also every time that a ship explodes in Star Trek there is a warp core explosion, why was the only time that a ship was blown off course?

Either the saucer section shields were up and absorb the energy, or the shields were down in which case they should have blown up with the force of the explosion

squonk

I don't think Star Fleet go to any great lengths carrying out enquiries after hull losses!

Myrddin

norrie rugger wrote: »

Lads, only pulling the piss that they put Troi at the helm both times.

Saying that, why did she steer the saucer section to the gravity well of the planet?

It's been a while, but wern't they in orbit of the planet at the time of the attack? After separation, there would have been no time to escape the gravity well before the explosion. Remember, the saucer section only had the two small secondary impulse engines.

norrie rugger wrote:

Also every time that a ship explodes in Star Trek there is a warp core explosion, why was the only time that a ship was blown off course?

Probably because the stardrive section was so close, & with the saucer section being a giant lifeboat really, I don't think there's anything out of sorts with the scene.

norrie rugger wrote:

Either the saucer section shields were up and absorb the energy, or the shields were down in which case they should have blown up with the force of the explosion

The shields would have absorbed the energy, but the inertia of the explosion would have still carried the saucer off course. Shields don't stop a ship moving by exterior force afaik. I'm trying to think of scenes similar, maybe when the Excelsior gets hit by the Praxis blast wave, though I'm not sure if the shields were up at that stage.

Either way if the shields are down, they were sufficiently far enough away to not sustain damage, yet be carried off course by the blast wave.

The writers wanted to destroy the Enterprise, to replace it with a ship that looked better on the big screen, for the forthcoming series of movies. They were going to destroy it one way or another.

norrie rugger

EnterNow wrote: »

It's been a while, but wern't they in orbit of the planet at the time of the attack? After separation, there would have been no time to escape the gravity well before the explosion. Remember, the saucer section only had the two small secondary impulse engines..

From what I remember when they seperated they had quite some time, to get some distance from the Stardrive. The direction that they took brought them back towards the planet.

EnterNow wrote: »

Probably because the stardrive section was so close, & with the saucer section being a giant lifeboat really, I don't think there's anything out of sorts with the scene..

There have been many occasions where ships have been closer

EnterNow wrote: »

The shields would have absorbed the energy, but the inertia of the explosion would have still carried the saucer off course. Shields don't stop a ship moving by exterior force afaik. I'm trying to think of scenes similar, maybe when the Excelsior gets hit by the Praxis blast wave, though I'm not sure if the shields were up at that stage

Either way if the shields are down, they were sufficiently far enough away to not sustain damage, yet be carried off course by the blast wave.

Fair enough but the Saucer should be able to break orbit surely. Also, being designed as a lifeboat, to escape just such an event, and Geordi giving up so early into the breech, would you think that the secondary shields and engines would get it away from the Stardrive safely

EnterNow wrote: »

The writers wanted to destroy the Enterprise, to replace it with a ship that looked better on the big screen, for the forthcoming series of movies. They were going to destroy it one way or another.

Agree completely!!!
But, as with a lot of Generations, I think that they took the easy way out. Although the D looked frikken awesome, on the big screen.

Myrddin

norrie rugger wrote: »

Agree completely!!!
But, as with a lot of Generations, I think that they took the easy way out. Although the D looked frikken awesome, on the big screen.

That she did man, plus after going to the bother of getting rid of it, they could have at least gave us some decent exterior goodness of the Sovereign E. It looked very well in First Contact, the last time she was used as an actual model afaik. From there it was all CG I detest CG in Trek, models all day long.

The Refit introduction scene in TMP is biblically cool, & a testiment to how very much models destroy CG when correctly done

norrie rugger

I remember the E coming out of the nebula, in FC, and being totally in awe.

CG is great, if you need to make a fluid moving and textured creature, but if you have something like a ship then model all the way.

squonk

They did very little with the E. I've always taken the view that the ship is a s much a cast member as the rest of the crew. I think Gene sort of did also. The E only had a bit part really. There needed to be something like a refit introdction like in the TMP, or at least as the ship was in service, they could have started the film by having them board from a starbase and given us the chance to pan along her and watch her being launched. Introduce her to us in style in other words.

Regarding CGI, it's not always that bad. The CGI Galactica in BSG looks very well indeed.

Myrddin

squonk wrote: »

They did very little with the E. I've always taken the view that the ship is a s much a cast member as the rest of the crew. I think Gene sort of did also. The E only had a bit part really. There needed to be something like a refit introdction like in the TMP, or at least as the ship was in service, they could have started the film by having them board from a starbase and given us the chance to pan along her and watch her being launched. Introduce her to us in style in other words.

That would have been sweet, never really thought of that. All we got is, hey, here's the new ship - cut to interior scene.

squonk wrote:

Regarding CGI, it's not always that bad. The CGI Galactica in BSG looks very well indeed.

I'm not saying CG is bad per se, but I've yet to see anything in CG that actually looked like it could be real. I can't find it in HD, but the scene where we see the Refit for the first time in TMP, the ship looks so real, you actually engage with it & believe your looking at a very very large object.

I never get that sense of reality & scale with CG. Granted CG is cheaper & more practical, & you can do all fancy things with it that models can't, but for that :eek: factor, models leave CG in their dust

Goldstein

norrie rugger wrote: »

From what I remember when they seperated they had quite some time, to get some distance from the Stardrive. The direction that they took brought them back towards the planet.

Ya, to be fair to her driving skills, the shock wave from the stardrive section kicked the aft portion of the saucer section "up" and pitched its bow towards the planet. Still though, brings me back to an earlier point about the 3D-ness of space - go "up" Troi FFS

norrie rugger wrote: »

Agree completely!!!
But, as with a lot of Generations, I think that they took the easy way out. Although the D looked frikken awesome, on the big screen.

Amen.
To be honest seeing the D in all her glory on the re-mastered blu-rays is the no. 1 reason I'll be buying them on day 1. Can't wait!

Dave0301

squonk wrote: »

They did very little with the E. I've always taken the view that the ship is as much a cast member as the rest of the crew. I think Gene sort of did also. The E only had a bit part really. There needed to be something like a refit introdction like in the TMP, or at least as the ship was in service, they could have started the film by having them board from a starbase and given us the chance to pan along her and watch her being launched. Introduce her to us in style in other words.

I agree with you but I don't if that makes sense!

It would have been awesome to have been introduced to E like that, but for me at least TNG was not so much about visuals as it was content and the characters individuality at times! If that makes any sense:o!?

squonk

I know what you're saying. Yes, it was very character driven but TOS was also. The ship was an important factor in both series however. It maybe wasn't quite the same character that the NCC-1701 was in TOS but they did go to lengths to show refits and things that the D got during the course of the series.

Even at the beginning of TNG we had the shot of Picard heading out to the D on a shuttle. I can't remember now if a flyby was done but we got a good look at her. There was also the segment when Riker joined the crew where Picard made him do a manual launch. Again, we got to see a lot of the ship. By mid way through Season 1 you knew the ship well and were really starting to have a soft spot for her I think.

The same efforts weren't taken in the films. I think a replacement Enterprise is a pretty big deal. In the TOS films they handled it with great reverence. In the TNG movies it was a case of 'hey, here's s shot of space and, oh yeah, here's the Enterprise E'... cut to interior shot. Right now I just don't have any great affinity for the E. It's more of an aquaintance than an old friend, like the previous ships.

Myrddin

squonk wrote: »

Even at the beginning of TNG we had the shot of Picard heading out to the D on a shuttle

Wasn't that All Good Things, the series finale? But yes your right, over the course of the show, viewers became very acquainted with the ship, Deck 36 is main engineering, Deck 16 is the battle bridge [I think ], & many other technical details

I know next to nothing about the sovvy details in comparison

norrie rugger

Even Voyager got that Flyby shot FFS

squonk

They seem to have gotten out of that. There wasn't one for the new movie either but I've no time for that gick anyway so I don't care. It's something masquerading as Trek but is in no way comparable to actual Trek as we know it.

kowloon

The ship collision in Nemesis was a model hung upside down. Looked pretty good, but it probably had plenty of additional cg.

Goodshape

Goldstein wrote: »

All that you need to know about Abrams' Trek is the following:
Uhura: "I was tracking solar systems..."

There is only one solar system luv, that of our star - Sol :cool:

Just watching TNG episode The Outrageous Okona and some little ship has popped up and started giving orders. Riker is uneasy, Picard is dismissive...

Picard: He is right though, we are in their solar system.


Just made me remember this thread... thought I'd mention it :P

Myrddin

Goodshape wrote: »

Just watching TNG episode The Outrageous Okona

Nominated in EnterNow Magazine as the worst TNG episode of all time.

Goodshape

EnterNow wrote: »

Nominated in EnterNow Magazine as the worst TNG episode of all time.

It's not good, but I'm making my way though the series at the moment and trust me... it's not the worst . Not even the worst I've seen so far (S02E04).


(p.s. TNG is still a fantastic show. Every episode a new adventure, and great characters. Even these early seasons.)

Goldstein

Goodshape wrote: »

Just watching TNG episode The Outrageous Okona and some little ship has popped up and started giving orders. Riker is uneasy, Picard is dismissive...

Picard: He is right though, we are in their solar system.


Just made me remember this thread... thought I'd mention it :P

Ouch, Picard saying something wrong pains me. Omega Sagitta system dammit writers!