Dublin Airport - Leap & RTPI

bk

So I was at Dublin Airport last night and I noticed that there are still no RTPI signs or LEAP card machines at the Dublin Bus stops at the airport!!

Surely we should want to put our best foot forward to people visiting Ireland and give them as much help and assistance as possible.

These DB stops should have RTPI and LEAP card machines and so should every other bus stop when LEAP and RTPI are rolled out to Bus Eireann, Air Coach, etc.

Anyone know why they aren't there? Is it DB's, DCC, NTA or DAA's fault?

Dodge

This is the extent of leapcard's info for tourists

https://www.leapcard.ie/PageSetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=W2YN67IrBnhwjbdYS7EvW6LkRbNNu0ZwG9upvDwq7Yg05KYQYKAkdN%2bVbAdPSVYS7hUIcvAyUqH5XYb%2b9GUpeCoV1yxijLqkRorYEWB%2bJXRSc2xfitBhZCGyuebfW7ZBJzbz8FHnwGIG50Dyq2op08ZSsgw47LO753h27CkUIxE%3d]from their site

LXFlyer

The cards are on sale at the Spar in Terminal 2 Arrivals, Easons and the Kiosk in Terminal 1 Arrivals and Wrights Food Fayre in The Atrium Car Park per the Leap website.

I can't see the cards being on sale at stops - it would be too difficult to control - for example you can only buy Oyster online, at agents and in stations.

But at the very least there should be a sign indicating the locations where you can buy them, with Wrights only being a 1 minute walk away.

All of the above (and the onstreet RTPI signage) is the responsibility of the NTA.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

The cards are on sale at the Spar in Terminal 2 Arrivals, Easons and the Kiosk in Terminal 1 Arrivals and Wrights Food Fayre in The Atrium Car Park per the Leap website.

Yet not available at the Tourist Office or the CIE ticket office at the airport, genius!!!

lxflyer wrote: »

I can't see the cards being on sale at stops - it would be too difficult to control - for example you can only buy Oyster online, at agents and in stations.

First London is different to Dublin. The tube is the primary mode of transport in London, with bus just typically supporting this, allowing people to get to and from tube stations.

Every tube station has an Oyster card vending machine.

However you can also get Oyster cards from a number of bus stations in London and from oyster card outlets in tourist centers like Heathrow Airport, Victoria Cross station, etc.

Also London Bus do have ticket machines in the central zone, however they only issue paper tickets, but it does show it is necessary.

Given that Dublin Bus is the primary mode of transport in Dublin, in order for Leap to be as widely available as Oyster is in London, then I believe DB and the NTA must take a much more active roll in selling Leap cards.

Really there should only be one ticket vending machine used for LUAS, Irish Rail and Dublin Bus.

At the Airport there should be at least one machine between the two DB stops, plus next to the 747 stops, plus a few in the short term car park / shop thing, just before you enter the bus parking area, with big signs saying buy DB / BE / Leap bus tickets here.

I think such machines should also be placed in other busy locations through out the city, such as at the DB office, along O'Connell St, BE Bus Station, Wetormoreland St., College Green, etc.

Of course this would be in addition to Irish Rail ticket vending machines and offices also selling and topping up LEAP!!

Only then would you come anywhere close to matching London.

LXFlyer

The only reason there are ticket machines at every stop in central London is because there is a total ban on paying cash on buses in central London!

As for the rest - well you will need to go to the NTA!

Per the RUI site, Leap should be able to be topped up from Irish Rail TVMs next month.

Dodge

bk wrote: »

First London is different to Dublin...

...and later...

Only then would you come anywhere close to matching London.

etchyed

Important to note that a Leap Card may not be the best option for tourists, given that you can't yet load them with prepaid cards and there is no fare cap.

Trying to figure out the best ticket option is confusing enough for Dublin residents at the moment, let alone tourists. Even someone who does research in advance couldn't fail to be baffled by the plethora of different websites they need to check to get ticket information and the plethora of different ticket types available to them.

One of the functions of the NTA is to provide integrated transport information, but the fragmentation of fares and ticket types has just made things even more confusing for the prospective public transport user. I understand that weekly and monthly tickets will be available on Leap eventually, but during this transition phase (and God knows how long it'll last) things are more confusing than ever.

bk

Dodge wrote: »

...and later...

Yes while London and Dublin are different, surely we want to match them in quality of service? Even if that is using different types of service (Bus vs Tube) and at obviously a smaller scale.

etchyed wrote: »

Important to note that a Leap Card may not be the best option for tourists, given that you can't yet load them with prepaid cards and there is no fare cap.

True, however that should be corrected soon when Leap prepaid cards and fare caps are added to Leap.

At least the tourist office, CIE office and a few Leap machines should be made quietly available at Dublin Airport and other busy locations for Dubliners.

etchyed wrote: »

Trying to figure out the best ticket option is confusing enough for Dublin residents at the moment, let alone tourists. Even someone who does research in advance couldn't fail to be baffled by the plethora of different websites they need to check to get ticket information and the plethora of different ticket types available to them.

Very true, we badly need a simplification of fares and at least a single NTA site with travel planner and fare information for all services.

LXFlyer

I would have thought that a rambler ticket is the best ticket for most tourists unless they plan on repeatedly visiting Dublin.

Or indeed one of these tickets.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

I would have thought that a rambler ticket is the best ticket for most tourists unless they plan on repeatedly visiting Dublin.

Or indeed one of these tickets.

Which should also be available from the vending machines.

However in time such tickets should be applied to the LEAP card.

LXFlyer

As far as I know they are?

The Rambler tickets at the very least are on sale at the Airlink Stop.

Stevek101

All DB ticket are available in the airport. Single/Return Airlink and Rambler at Airlink stop and a single Travel 90 and Ramblers at stop 7347. Leap and Tourist Tickets are available till last arrival at the Tourist Info stand.

Fratton Fred

Dublin isn't London, but the belief that is is somehow "Different" seems to be half the problem with Leap.

Why is not possible to just copy Oyster?

LXFlyer

Because to establish a politically acceptable flat fare for the buses would probably cost in the region of €50m per annum - something the government is not going to pay.

Fratton Fred

lxflyer wrote: »

Because to establish a politically acceptable flat fare for the buses would probably cost in the region of €50m per annum - something the government is not going to pay.

Politically acceptable to whom?

LXFlyer

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Politically acceptable to whom?

Primarily users paying the lower fares.

devnull

From my point of view you need to look at the transport information and infrastructure at the airport as a whole to be honest. Terminal two is shocking in so many ways in this regard but there are improvements that need to be made in Terminal one.

Terminal one:
First of all this setup is clearly geared towards the operators and not towards the general public. The CIE desk, and Aircoach desk should be abolished, as right now I don't think that they give good services to tourists as they are too busy trying to sell their own products rather than giving impartial advice. It should be replaced with an indepenent Irish Tourism centre who offers visitors the full range of options for them, without any bias towards one operator or another.

The CIE desk is at best highly misleading. To the average person and certainly to a tourist, it looks like a generic bus and rail desk. Passengers go to it, and are directed to various Dublin Bus, Irish Rail and Bus Eireann services. That is no problem in itself, but in some cases it leads to a far more complicated trip or lengthy, costly or indirect trip than is needed because this desk will always point out people towards using the three CIE operators even when it's not the best route for them. When there isn't

The same with Aircoach, if you ask them you want to go somewhere in the city then they will pretty much always say yes as they want the business, but at least for me anyway, you never get the impression that they are a generic bus and coach information desk. But still the whole experience is too commercially focused rather than actually getting the customer to their destination in the best possible way.

Terminal Two
Absolutely no transport facilities here, the current stops they have are pathetic, and with very little information on services, even less than terminal one, DAA should be ashamed of themselves.

Kumsheen

That may be true, but to try and get a real cost you would need to offset it against increased passenger numbers you would get with a proper integrated oyster type card.

This whole "demand is down, prices go up" way of operating a public transport system will never be successful.

With a proper integrated card, with a pricing structure that encourages connecting between different modes of transport, the numbers using it would rise dramatically.

This would increase revenue for all the transport providers, not decrease it as they are afraid of.
But it could take another 20 years for them to finally realise this.

Fratton Fred

lxflyer wrote: »

Primarily users paying the lower fares.

Instead of upsetting a few people for the greater good, we have ended up with a system that is a bodge job.

With public transport you have to concentrate on the majority. This is why anything to do with public transport takes so long to do, because they try to please too many people.

LXFlyer

This has been discussed in another thread to death, but at the moment in the current economic circumstances I cannot see a flat fare being introduced for the very reason that Dublin Bus do fear a diminution in farebox revenue.

They would not be compensated for this, and are also having to incur reasonably large additional overheads for operating LEAP (backroom costs), in addition to seeing subsidies falling and fuel costs rising.

Not a good mix!

devnull

I can't see it happening either like Lxflyer describes for this very reason, whatever the right's or wrong's about it, I can't see Dublin Bus being really happy with a single flat fare. However I don't think the current system is sustainable either and Dublin Bus need to realise that.

I do think though that a compromise would be to introduce a zonal based fare or something of the sort. A lot of my colleagues from outside Ireland find the current system confusing, and a zonal based system whilst not being ideal, would be much better than the current terribly confusing system.

Also the transfer rebates that are being talked about look attractive as well,I'm a pretty rare bus user these days, but getting rebated for using more than one mode of transport seems a nice idea.

LXFlyer

Totally agree with this post!

bk

A zonal system really doesn't help dwell times, you still have to tell the driver how many zones you want to travel.

To really transform Dublin Bus, we have to move to three door buses that are actually used, with a single flat fare and tag on validators on board the bus.

Outsource ticket enforcement to ex-Russian military storm trooper types as contractors who get a commission for each fare dodger caught (this is done in some other countries like Germany).

These ticket checkers would also help improve security on board buses.

If they can do this in Poland and make it work, then you can certainly do it here. No more excuses.

I believe this would transform Dublin Bus and lead to a much better, easier to use, faster bus service which would in turn lead to much greater usage.

LXFlyer

bk, I understand your point on dwell times, but we have to be realistic here.

Fuel costs are going up, subsidy going down, and the risk that a flat fare that would be politically acceptable would result in reduced farebox revenue is not something that the company could realistically take right now.

The best compromise is some form of zonal fare system that is straightforward, clear and unambiguous.

Incidentally, the three door bus solution has been abandoned in London due to massive fare evasion.

Given there are no new buses on order currently it's a rather moot point, especially given it would take over 10 years to renew the fleet!!

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

Fuel costs are going up, subsidy going down, and the risk that a flat fare that would be politically acceptable would result in reduced farebox revenue is not something that the company could realistically take right now.

If DB don't do this, then I believe it will result in the eventual privatisation of DB and all bus routes.

The play it safe option just isn't going to work IMO. With prices rising significantly and service deteriorating, I believe we will see less and less people using the bus. Which will simply lead DB into a death spiral of rising ticket prices and falling passenger numbers.

DB need to make radical changes and improvements now or I believe it is in serious trouble.

lxflyer wrote: »

The best compromise is some form of zonal fare system that is straightforward, clear and unambiguous.

Just not worth it, doesn't reduce dwell times, only removes a small bit of ambiguity. IMO too little benefit for too much cost.

lxflyer wrote: »

Incidentally, the three door bus solution has been abandoned in London due to massive fare evasion.

Err, three door operation is returning to London with the new London Bus.

How is it that most large European cities can operate buses with minimum of two doors?

In fact Dublin is one of the only capital cities that I can think of that has only one door buses!! Why are we so different?

Of course there will be a certain amount of fare evasion, but with the right balance of enforcement and high enough fine, it shouldn't effect the fare box.

Fines at the right amount should pay for the enforcement and lost revenue from fare evaders who aren't caught. Just like it does on the LUAS, who are running an operating profit.

On the other hand reduced dwell times and ease of use of buses * will certainly attract new customers and increase the fare box.

* One advantage of more doors is that you can more quickly board and not have to stand in the cold and rain.

lxflyer wrote: »

Given there are no new buses on order currently it's a rather moot point, especially given it would take over 10 years to renew the fleet!!

Agreed, but mine is a long term strategy and plan.

1) Introduce flat fares today, will go a long way to reducing dwell times.
2) As the fleet is renewed purchase minimum two door, preferably three door buses.
3) Operate these new buses on super-routes, with heavy fare enforcement by the Russian paratroopers from day one.
4) Gradually expand this network with two and three door buses by the normal renewal dates until eventually the entire network is operated by such buses.

parsi

Interesting point about bus door numbers.

I travel to Berlin every year and use their public transport to the hilt. I've seen inspectors on the S & U-Bahn but not on the bus.

Is this a conscious decision ? Their day pass/ weekly pass are reasonable enough. For pure commuters the rates seem to be quite good.

Seems to me that they're trying to strike a balance between enforcement and efficiency. Then again Berlin was heavily subsidised so maybe they still haven't escaped that mentality.

We have to decide what we want - reduced dwell times at the cost of increased enforcement would seem to be best , but increased dwell times don't directly cost the provider.

bk

Sorry to drag this up again, but almost three months later and still no sign of a single RTPI sign at Dublin Airport!!!

Surely Dublin Airport is an important and busy bus location that more then deserves to be covered in RTPI signs. In particularly as we want to put our best foot forward for travelers.

Surprisingly the Dublin Bus iPhone app doesn't find the stop using the "find nearby stops" facility! It only works if you enter the stop number.

There should be RTPI signs all over the airport and not just for DB, but also for the 747, BE, Aircoach, etc. The current setup just doesn't make any sense.

I also noticed getting on the 41 a number of seemingly young German tourists clutching Leap cards!! The German planning and efficiency had obviously gotten them to figure out how to go and buy a Leap card from a non obvious shop in Dublin airport. However they were looking quiet surprised and confused when the driver grumpily told them to hold the card on the reader and what their destination was.

Finally on Parnell Square West, I notice that of the 7 bus stops, all have RTPI displays, except Stop no. 6, which is one of the busiest stops, which includes relatively minor routes like the 3, 11, 16 and 16a!!!

Surely this stop should have a RTPI display over the other stops surrounding it that have only one route on them. If they couldn't afford an extra RTPI display, couldn't they just share the RTPI display of the stop just about 8 meters away, which has only one route.

Can anyone explain this?

LXFlyer

Why don't you contact the NTA - they are responsible for the rollout?

There may be infrastructural reasons - availability of the ESB to get them connected etc. (I dont' know), or perhaps the NTA have different priorities. They obviously have some sort of rollout plan - perhaps it's restricted by staff/equipment availability, perhaps it's political - they've been rolling them out in the provincial cities of late - who knows?

Give them a call and ask - I would suggest that would be more productive than complaining about it here.

coolperson05

There's plenty of missing stops in the City Centre! Info displays at disused stops (South Quays) but none (or very few) at College Green or on O Connell Bridge/Street?!