Issue affecting retained fire fighters in Louth

annoyedpublic

Also posted in Louth Forum so apologies to mods and delete if appropriate

Just read this article in this weeks Argus, this is a disgrace

http://www.argus.ie/news/retained-fi...s-2975167.html

RETAINED fire officers in Louth are not just fighting fires - they are fighting social welfare cuts to their income, according to Dundalk ICTU centre manager John Mathews, who has appealed recent decisions to cut entitlements to fire fighters.

Mr Mathews and the Irish Fire and Emergency Services Association (IFESA) say that part-time firefighters are being denied jobseekers' payments because their positions as firefighters mean they are limited in the jobs they can take up.

In addition, there is a requisite that they must live within a certain distance of the fire station.

This stipulation, according to social welfare officers, means the firefighters are hampered in their ability to find other work. The issue arose in Louth when a part-time firefighter moved to Louth from Kildare in the hope of getting a full-time position in Drogheda.

But social welfare inspectors in Louth said the officer's part-time role meant that he was not available to take on other employment.

The matter was raised in the Dail recently by Sinn Fein TD Gerry Adams, who was told by Minister for Social Protection Joan Burton that her department 'couldn't introduce special arrangements for firefighters without raising equity issues for other claimants'.

But Minister Burton said a group has been formed in the department to examine the position of part-time firefighters. Mr Mathews, who helped two officers appeal the cuts to their social welfare, said some retained firefighters make up 20% of fire service staff, were in dire straits after their social welfare was cut.

He said: ' There are people in the position now that are considering giving up being retained firefighters entirely because they need the regular income that social welfare gives them. They are paid €8,000 a year, in quarterly installments. It costs between €15,000 and €20,000 to train each firefighter and taking away a part-time staff member's social welfare would mean the State would have to pay even more to each person in terms of social welfare'.

Mr Mathews said the next step is to contact the Social Welfare Ombudsman with a view to getting the social welfare returned to retained officers. He said: 'It seems like they are being penalised for the job they do'.

- ANNE CAMPBELL

dfbemt

I don't fully understand this issue and have seen it posted on other forums. A few questions

- how much is the social welfare payment?
- how can you get a social welfare payment when you are receiving a wage?
- are things like family income supplement available?
- how much do retained ff's in Louth earn? Have heard varying figures of €40k to €60k
- If a ff was offered a fulltime job, not fire service, say 20 miles away would he give up the fire service?
- In above scenario would said ff be allowed provide cover when he is at home and not at work eg evenings and weekends?

annoyedpublic

No point in avoiding it, this affects myself.

- how much is the social welfare payment?
Varies from person to person due to personal circumstances. In some counties fire fighters are entitled to full social welfare, so long as they are looking for work and making themselves available for work. In others there is a system whereby if you get a call you don't get social welfare. A bit like any other worker who is on reduced days/ casual employment. ie Fill out x's and o's on weekly slips.

- how can you get a social welfare payment when you are receiving a wage?
As a retained fire fighter you are considered part time by a lot. If you are in an urban station with lots of calls great, an income you can survive on. If you are in a rural station, there isn't as many calls.

- are things like family income supplement available?
Again dependant on circumstances, however for a single person, it is not.

- how much do retained ff's in Louth earn?
Aside from the busier urban stations there are rural stations in Louth, some with only 50-80 calls per year. Producing an income of between €10,000 to €15,000. Considering on call 5plus days per week plus 52weeks per year, it is far from luxurious. Also you cannot get housing supplement while in the fire service, nor other benefits.

- If a ff was offered a fulltime job, not fire service, say 20 miles away would he give up the fire service?
I would.

- In above scenario would said ff be allowed provide cover when he is at home and not at work eg evenings and weekends?
It is allowed in some counties. However the council don't want to allow time off/ leave to go earn a living elsewhere as "it is not good for the service"

annoyedpublic

Drogheda Independant, December 21st 2011, Page seven
Call for just treatment of unemployed firefighters
A call has been made for retained firefighters to receive fair and reasonable treatment in relation to job seekers allowance payments.
Gerald Nash TD has vowed to continue his fight for firefighters in these part-time positions to be treated fairly.
At present, some retained members of the force in Louth and across the country are being refused jobseeker allowance payments on the grounds that they are not sufficiently available for work.
“This issue was first brought to my attention by retained firefighters who are working in our smaller rural stations,” said the Louth Deputy.
“There is an inconsistency in how this issue is treated from county to county. I’ve been working with the Minister for Social Protection, Joan Burton and she is sympathetic to their situation.”
A departmental report was commissioned following intervention by the Drogheda TD with the Minister and this report has now been completed.
It’s hoped the Minister will fully consider the report without delay so that “a common sense solution can be found.”
“Retained firefighters provide an essential service to our community and we should not be putting obstacles in the way of fulfilling their duties. Louth has a strong and proud tradition in terms of our firefighters who put themselves at risk for our safety,” he added.
“There is no doubting their desire and availability for full time employment.” “If this situation is not resolved we will be in the ludicrous situation of telling dedicated firefighters that they should sit at home rather than serve their community,” added Deputy Nash

dfbemt

annoyedpublic wrote: »

Also posted in Louth Forum so apologies to mods and delete if appropriate

Just read this article in this weeks Argus, this is a disgrace

I think you shot your own credibility by not coming straight out and admitting it affected you personally. You did not 'just' read this in the newspaper.

I have a limited knowledge of the retained side and your figures don't add up. Let me explain using simple figures

Retainer = €8,000
Weekly Drill €20 x 2 hours x 50 weeks = €2,000
Compulsory SOG Training €20 x 8 hours x 4 days = €640
Fire Calls €40 x 50 = €2,000

The above figure for fire calls is the worst case scenario and is pretty unrealistic as it assumes all your calls are at the day rate with none occuring at night or weekends. It also assumes that all your calls only lasted for no more than 1 hour. A more realsitic figure would be to assume half at day rate and half at night rate

Fire Calls €40 x 25 + €80 x 25 = €3,000 for 50 calls of no more than 1 hour
Fire Calls €40 x 40 + €80 x 40 = €4,800 for 80 calls of no more than 1 hour

That gives a total income of €13,640 for a station doing 50 calls and €15,440 for a station doing 80 calls. This is an average of €262 per week to €296 per week which is surely more than you would receive as a single man on the dole? Don't forget that you will receive a lump sum when you retire which you don't have to contribute to, that you receive increments and that you can also go for promotion.

Be up front about things from the start and learn to compromise. Maybe the bext option is that you get to sign off on the days when you get a call.

I hope it gets sorted out for you irregardless.

annoyedpublic

dfbemt wrote: »

annoyedpublic wrote: »

Also posted in Louth Forum so apologies to mods and delete if appropriate

Just read this article in this weeks Argus, this is a disgrace

I think you shot your own credibility by not coming straight out and admitting it affected you personally. You did not 'just' read this in the newspaper.

I have a limited knowledge of the retained side and your figures don't add up. Let me explain using simple figures

Retainer = €8,000
Weekly Drill €20 x 2 hours x 50 weeks = €2,000
Compulsory SOG Training €20 x 8 hours x 4 days = €640
Fire Calls €40 x 50 = €2,000

The above figure for fire calls is the worst case scenario and is pretty unrealistic as it assumes all your calls are at the day rate with none occuring at night or weekends. It also assumes that all your calls only lasted for no more than 1 hour. A more realsitic figure would be to assume half at day rate and half at night rate

Fire Calls €40 x 25 + €80 x 25 = €3,000 for 50 calls of no more than 1 hour
Fire Calls €40 x 40 + €80 x 40 = €4,800 for 80 calls of no more than 1 hour

That gives a total income of €13,640 for a station doing 50 calls and €15,440 for a station doing 80 calls. This is an average of €262 per week to €296 per week which is surely more than you would receive as a single man on the dole? Don't forget that you will receive a lump sum when you retire which you don't have to contribute to, that you receive increments and that you can also go for promotion.

Be up front about things from the start and learn to compromise. Maybe the bext option is that you get to sign off on the days when you get a call.

I hope it gets sorted out for you irregardless.

Aplologies if I appeared underhand, just fearful of repercussions for going online.
Your above figures are not far off the mark, however bear in mind that the station gets that amount of calls, each firefighter would be lucky to get 80% of the stations tally. Also please bear in mind that there are no other benefits that normal social welfare applicants receive. So after tax a lot of the time rural retained fire fighters may be worse off than those in reciept of social welfare. That is while they are still providing public service and risking themselves at calls.
I have asked the local social welfare office to take a logical approach to this, ie sign off when I get a call, but have been refused. Desperate at this stage. If the money you get was definate and garaunteed that would be fine, but it isn't, my own personal record for sitting and waiting and not getting a call is close to 13 weeks, I was on call 5days per week during that, just unfortunate that every call fell at times I was off.
Again apologies if I seemed underhand, just don't know what to do at this stage.

afterburn1

dfbemt wrote: »

I think you shot your own credibility by not coming straight out and admitting it affected you personally. You did not 'just' read this in the newspaper.

I have a limited knowledge of the retained side and your figures don't add up. Let me explain using simple figures

Retainer = €8,000
Weekly Drill €20 x 2 hours x 50 weeks = €2,000
Compulsory SOG Training €20 x 8 hours x 4 days = €640
Fire Calls €40 x 50 = €2,000

The above figure for fire calls is the worst case scenario and is pretty unrealistic as it assumes all your calls are at the day rate with none occuring at night or weekends. It also assumes that all your calls only lasted for no more than 1 hour. A more realsitic figure would be to assume half at day rate and half at night rate

Fire Calls €40 x 25 + €80 x 25 = €3,000 for 50 calls of no more than 1 hour
Fire Calls €40 x 40 + €80 x 40 = €4,800 for 80 calls of no more than 1 hour

That gives a total income of €13,640 for a station doing 50 calls and €15,440 for a station doing 80 calls. This is an average of €262 per week to €296 per week which is surely more than you would receive as a single man on the dole? Don't forget that you will receive a lump sum when you retire which you don't have to contribute to, that you receive increments and that you can also go for promotion.

Be up front about things from the start and learn to compromise. Maybe the bext option is that you get to sign off on the days when you get a call.

I hope it gets sorted out for you irregardless.

And your point is? Jesus when the full time firefighters think this is a fair system what chance have you got.:mad:

dfbemt

afterburn1 wrote: »

And your point is? Jesus when the full time firefighters think this is a fair system what chance have you got.:mad:

Sorry, not sure what you are saying?

afterburn1

dfbemt wrote: »

I


That gives a total income of €13,640 for a station doing 50 calls and €15,440 for a station doing 80 calls. This is an average of €262 per week to €296 per week which is surely more than you would receive as a single man on the dole? Don't forget that you will receive a lump sum when you retire which you don't have to contribute to, that you receive increments and that you can also go for promotion.

How about a married man with 3 kids, 2 in third level education and 1 at secondary school, and wife who doesn't work. Getting the full maintenance grant which is €3120 each. Cost of accomadation at ucd on campus is €5460 each and give them money to survive day to day on. We pay the pension levy same as everyone else too, even though we don't get a pension (as you state quite correctly we get a lump sum on retirement which we will now have to pay tax on as well). Mortgage of €460 a month on top of that.

As for this Compulsory SOG Training €20 x 8 hours x 4 days = €640.
only the station officer and subbie get this. They then roll it out at station level on drill nights.
Surely we are as entitled to jobseekers benefit as anyone else.

Whatever it takes

dfbemt wrote: »

I think you shot your own credibility by not coming straight out and admitting it affected you personally. You did not 'just' read this in the newspaper.

I have a limited knowledge of the retained side and your figures don't add up. Let me explain using simple figures

Retainer = €8,000
Weekly Drill €20 x 2 hours x 50 weeks = €2,000
Compulsory SOG Training €20 x 8 hours x 4 days = €640
Fire Calls €40 x 50 = €2,000

The above figure for fire calls is the worst case scenario and is pretty unrealistic as it assumes all your calls are at the day rate with none occuring at night or weekends. It also assumes that all your calls only lasted for no more than 1 hour. A more realsitic figure would be to assume half at day rate and half at night rate

Fire Calls €40 x 25 + €80 x 25 = €3,000 for 50 calls of no more than 1 hour
Fire Calls €40 x 40 + €80 x 40 = €4,800 for 80 calls of no more than 1 hour

That gives a total income of €13,640 for a station doing 50 calls and €15,440 for a station doing 80 calls. This is an average of €262 per week to €296 per week which is surely more than you would receive as a single man on the dole? Don't forget that you will receive a lump sum when you retire which you don't have to contribute to, that you receive increments and that you can also go for promotion.

Be up front about things from the start and learn to compromise. Maybe the bext option is that you get to sign off on the days when you get a call.

I hope it gets sorted out for you irregardless.

DFB EMT Let me give you some vital information that perhaps you might take into consideration before you draught figures to which you yourself have admitted to having limited knowledge about.

Firstly the figures you have quoted appear to be for some strange reason, tax free and not including the USC just to name a few deductions. I understand that perhaps you are quoting gross figures however when it comes to what is in your hand at the end of a week/quarter these gross figures are cold comfort.

For a firefighter responding to 50-80 calls per year you will find that a social welfare payment is what keeps these men and women doing the job they do.

Secondly retained firefighters do make a pension contribution although they will never see that pension. Thirdly with retained brigades around the country being forced into being payed to the nearest minute i think you will find suddenly your 50 - 80 calls per year are now not worth the paper there printed on.

Unfortunately for the service in general retained brigades cannot count on the support of our full-time brothers, It would appear that many carry the same attitude that i see in many of your threads pertaining to full time - part time discussions however that is another discussion for another thread.

Brigades around the country are now being told that they are no longer required at incidents such as minor gorse fires/oil spills but to name a few. Do you think perhaps in the coming months this will have an affect on those 50 - 80 calls. Try telling that to a social welfare deciding officer when they tar you with the "decent money" brush that you have been so quick to use.


Last but certainly not least, it saddens me to see you write things asking "would a part time ff be willing to give up his position if he was offered a FT job 20 miles away. Do you really think it is fair and appropriate to allow one of your own be entered into having to make such a decision? Perhaps a person who has devoted 20+ years to the service and whether you like it or not is as highly trained as you are. Do you not feel a system should be put in place to prevent this happening at all costs?

If i appear abrupt or presumptuous as to your opinions on certain matters within the brigade forgive me for that, unfortunately there is elements in many of your thread comments that appear all too familiar to me.

That said
Stay safe Brother.