Prime Duran v Prime Tszyu at 140lbs - Who Wins??

tryingmybestt

2 of my fave fighters above...........who wins this classic......try decide with head and not heart..

walshb

Going with the head it's Duran inside the distance. Going with the heart it's Duran inside the difference. Too ferocious, relentless, heavy handed, defensive, offensive, too fast, slippy and all around a lot better on the inside.

gene_tunney

Duran wins, Kosta gets KTFO. Tszyu is pretty overrated IMO.

HovaBaby

This thread'll go Durans way no doubt. You shoulda said Duran VS SRR at 140 in their prime.

walshb

HovaBaby wrote: »

This thread'll go Durans way no doubt. You shoulda said Duran VS SRR at 140 in their prime.

That match has to be at WW. Ray was at his best at 147-154 lbs I would imagine. He did fight below 140 but he was quite young then.

Spazdarn

walshb wrote: »

Going with the head it's Duran inside the distance. Going with the heart it's Duran inside the difference. Too ferocious, relentless, heavy handed, defensive, offensive, too fast, slippy and all around a lot better on the inside.

Pretty much agree with all of the above...

tryingmybestt

duran v srr is too obvious....

i think back to duran getting ko'd against hearns with a precise straight right hand....that is tszyu's best punch.....tszyu had the power to ko him early

id give the edge to tszyu in power.....duran much better defensively and on the inside.......duran also more versatile and durable.....duran is the obvious choice but i think tszyu has a chance to ko him early....

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

duran v srr is too obvious....

i think back to duran getting ko'd against hearns with a precise straight right hand....that is tszyu's best punch.....tszyu had the power to ko him early

id give the edge to tszyu in power.....duran much better defensively and on the inside.......duran also more versatile and durable.....duran is the obvious choice but i think tszyu has a chance to ko him early....

You really think that Tsyzu's power at 140 lbs vs a Duran at 140 lbs is comparable to a Hearns right hand with full intent at 154 lbs, against a Duran who really is at least ONE weight below Hearns in a natural sense?

Leonard at 147 lbs is a far deadlier puncher than Kostya Tsyzu. Duran took Lenoard's shots for 15 rds in 1980.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

You really think that Tsyzu's power at 140 lbs vs a Duran at 140 lbs is comparable to a Hearns right hand with full intent at 154 lbs, against a Duran who really is at least ONE weight below Hearns in a natural sense?

Leonard at 147 lbs is a far deadlier puncher than Kostya Tsyzu. Duran took Lenoard's shots for 15 rds in 1980.

I'm not comparing it to hearn's right but i'm saying it's enough to ko duran

i wouldn't agree that leonard hits harder than tszyu.......if leonard had that power most of his fights would end in first round ko's as he was so precise and fast......leonard ko'd ppl with fast shots they didn't see....he also took people apart with excellent body shots and then took them out.....tszyu had one punch knockout power with the right and one of the better left hooks to the body i've seen.......

no doubt duran was a beast and is the favourite against tszyu and rightly so....9 times out of 10 duran probably beats tszyu....i still think tszyu has ability to ko him 10% of the time, maybe more

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

I'm not comparing it to hearn's right but i'm saying it's enough to ko duran

i wouldn't agree that leonard hits harder than tszyu.......if leonard had that power most of his fights would end in first round ko's as he was so precise and fast......leonard ko'd ppl with fast shots they didn't see....he also took people apart with excellent body shots and then took them out.....tszyu had one punch knockout power with the right and one of the better left hooks to the body i've seen.......

no doubt duran was a beast and is the favourite against tszyu and rightly so....9 times out of 10 duran probably beats tszyu....i still think tszyu has ability to ko him 10% of the time, maybe more

Gotta' really disagree there. Hatton tasted many flush right hands and went nowhere. Leonard was a fully fledged WW, and I am almost sure his hands were heavier. Better puncher all around. Duran's chin was pretty solid. Leonard's shots were not just fast, they were heavy too. Speed creates power. And, isn't almost everyone KO'd with shots they don't see? I hate that phrase.

efb

Duran

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Gotta' really disagree there. Hatton tasted many flush right hands and went nowhere. Leonard was a fully fledged WW, and I am almost sure his hands were heavier. Better puncher all around. Duran's chin was pretty solid. Leonard's shots were not juts fast, they wer heavy too. Speed creates power. And, isn't almost everyone KO'd with shots they don't see? I hate that phrase.

when tszyu fought hatton he was over the hill with diminished power, i was at that fight actually......at that stage in hattons career he probably would have taken anyones shots.....plus tszyu never hit hatton flush with a long right hand.....his shots were glancing or at mid range and mid power.....tszyu needed space to get full power and hatton gave him no space that night

when your boxing the shots you see coming don't shock you as much but a lighter shot could knock you out if you dont see it coming...pound for pound tszyu definitely hit much harder thad leonard, although leonard was much faster and the better fighter

StevePH

Oul manos de piedra - a fine example of a figher both technically brilliant AND a brute in the ring.

Tszyu was good. Duran's a great.

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

when tszyu fought hatton he was over the hill with diminished power, i was at that fight actually......at that stage in hattons career he probably would have taken anyones shots.....plus tszyu never hit hatton flush with a long right hand.....his shots were glancing or at mid range and mid power.....tszyu needed space to get full power and hatton gave him no space that night

when your boxing the shots you see coming don't shock you as much but a lighter shot could knock you out if you dont see it coming...pound for pound tszyu definitely hit much harder thad leonard, although leonard was much faster and the better fighter

It's impossible to tell who hits harder p4p. I guess it is also impossible to tell who hit harder, full stop.But, Leonard was alll around a deadlier puncher I think. Combos, variation, and speed. Also, he was a naturally bigger and heavier man. I would be more confident that SRL banged harder than any version of Tsyzu.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

It's impossible to tell who hits harder p4p. I guess it is also impossible to tell who hit harder, full stop.But, Leonard was alll around a deadlier puncher I think. Combos, variation, and speed. Also, he was a naturally bigger and heavier man. I would be more confident that SRL banged harder than any version of Tsyzu.

based on their records and the opinions of experts, sparring partners and oponents I think it's fair to say tszyu was feared for his 'punch like a mule' while leonard was more known for his speed, grit and skills

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

based on their records and the opinions of experts, sparring partners and oponents I think it's fair to say tszyu was feared for his 'punch like a mule' while leonard was more known for his speed, grit and skills

Yes, and as I always said, Leonard was not known as a massive hitter because he had so much grace, flair and fluidity. He was often overlooked as a hitter. When he fought Hearns the whole world thought it was the puncher vs. the boxer, but as Dundee said, Leonard was the puncher that night; his shots did the most damage.

StevePH

walshb wrote: »

SRL banged harder than any version of Tsyzu.

I wouldn't be 100% sure on that one Walsh B. I didn't see all his fights but my impression of Leonard is he overwhelmed opponents with speed and style

Lookin on Boxrec, Leonard's record of TKOs v KOs seems to point to outclassing opponents rather than outgunning them.

I am a fan of Leonard - loved his style/dedication to the sport/bravery. But I also think he v often threw flurries of what some might call pitty pat punches to steal rounds...

walshb

StevePH wrote: »

I wouldn't be 100% sure on that one Walsh B. I didn't see all his fights but my impression of Leonard is he overwhelmed opponents with speed and style

Lookin on Boxrec, Leonard's record of TKOs v KOs seems to point to outclassing opponents rather than outgunning them.

I am a fan of Leonard - loved his style/dedication to the sport/bravery. But I also think he v often threw flurries of what some might call pitty pat punches to steal rounds...

Boxrec does not tell the whole story. Yes, he sometimes threw speed shots, but when he meant it, he hit quite hard and heavy. He was a super puncher. And, a wicked finisher too. Heavy and fast and plenty.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Yes, and as I always said, Leonard was not known as a massive hitter because he had so much grace, flair and fluidity. He was often overlooked as a hitter. When he fought Hearns the whole world thought it was the puncher vs. the boxer, but as Dundee said, Leonard was the puncher that night; his shots did the most damage.

it is widely accepted that leonard's power was underrated....that doesn't mean he was a huge power puncher.....even against hearns he wore hearns down, especially with left hooks to the body, it was accumulated punishment rather than one punch power.....the end came in the 13th or 14th round

most of tszyu's ko's came with one punch and early......Tszyu is no doubt the harder hitter than leonard

Daroxtar

I kind of agree with th op, Tszyu had raw power in his paws whereas Leonard was a lovely clean puncher and a great finisher but he didnt usually ko people outright with a single punch like Tszyu could. However going back to his original topic, Roberto Duran, one of the toughest little feckers ever to get in a ring, Fists of stone.... Tszyu might have gotten a lucky shot and ko'd him but it would have been a 1 in a hundred chance. Duran for me on this one 99 times out of a hundred

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

it is widely accepted that leonard's power was underrated....that doesn't mean he was a huge power puncher.....even against hearns he wore hearns down, especially with left hooks to the body, it was accumulated punishment rather than one punch power.....the end came in the 13th or 14th round

most of tszyu's ko's came with one punch and early......Tszyu is no doubt the harder hitter than leonard

Yes, it was power, and accumulation. But, Hearns could take a good dig as well. No doubt the harder hitter? How can you claim to know this

When Ray landed flush he had one punch power, just ask Davey Boy Green.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Yes, it was power, and accumulation. But, Hearns could take a good dig as well. No doubt the harder hitter? How can you claim to know this

When Ray landed flush he had one punch power, just ask Davey Boy Green.

Ray was so precise, accurate and skillful he landed clean flush shots in most fights, yet he didnt't take many out with one punch, maybe 2 or 3 max. Tszyu on the other hand took ppl out as soon as he touched them with his right hand......a blind man can see tszyu is the much better puncher.......overall ray is a better fighter but when we're talking punching power then tszyu is your man

StevePH

walshb wrote: »

Boxrec does not tell the whole story. Yes, he sometimes threw speed shots, but when he meant it, he hit quite hard and heavy. He was a super puncher. And, a wicked finisher too. Heavy and fast and plenty.

'Sometimes' threw speed shots?
Leonard's game was based on speed and style.

The sugarman beat a large majority of his opponents simply because of that fact that he was faster to the punch/a better boxer than them.
A relatively hard hitter, he was not - in a 20 year entire professional career, he knocked out clean SIX men.

Annyyyway, back on topic. If anyone's looking for more info on Duran's ability (in a great context) you'd do well to get your hands on a copy of Four Kings - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Four-Kings-Leonard-Hagler-Hearns/dp/1845963598/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1325755066&sr=1-1 - reading this is sure to have you spending hours on youtube in the wee hours

walshb

StevePH wrote: »

'Sometimes' threw speed shots?
Leonard's game was based on speed and style.

The sugarman beat a large majority of his opponents simply because of that fact that he was faster to the punch/a better boxer than them.
A relatively hard hitter, he was not - in a 20 year entire professional career, he knocked out clean SIX men.

Annyyyway, back on topic. If anyone's looking for more info on Duran's ability (in a great context) you'd do well to get your hands on a copy of Four Kings - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Four-Kings-Leonard-Hagler-Hearns/dp/1845963598/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1325755066&sr=1-1 - reading this is sure to have you spending hours on youtube in the wee hours

By speed shots I was meaning the "pitter patter" you speak of.

He is a very good puncher, with B+ rate power. No, not Juilan Jackson or Gerlad McClellan like, but he is definitely heavy handed.

So, he knocked out 6 men clean. That is not at all proof of anything.

Some men are more difficult to KO than others. Opposition must be considered.

Tsyzu was a heavy hitter, a KO hitter, no doubt. And, p4p he probably does have heavier hands.

But, force vs.s force I wouldn't be sure a 140 lb Tsyzu hit harder than a 147 lb Leonard.

cowzerp

Leonard had power and lots of it, but his style was not about planting his feet and looking for 1 punch KO wins, he would out skill his opponents with high volume and solid power, footwork and speed where the keys.

Tszyu would definetly plant his feet looking for the big punch more often but i also believe if leonard wanted he could out punch Tszyu

On topic, Duran would out power and out work Tsyzyu

walshb

My thoughts exactly, Paul. Like I said, when he wanted to, and when he planted the feet, he could really bang.

A wee bit off topic: I would be very confident that if him and Tsyzu stood toe to toe and exchanged shots with intent, that it's Tsyzu who is going down.

Spazdarn

"They say Roberto Duran once knocked out a horse with a single punch"

Anyone who's played the fight night games will have heard this phrase repeated a million times over.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

My thoughts exactly, Paul. Like I said, when he wanted to, and when he planted the feet, he could really bang.

A wee bit off topic: I would be very confident that if him and Tsyzu stood toe to toe and exchanged shots with intent, that it's Tsyzu who is going down.

if u think tszyu would go down in a toe to toe then you believe leonard hits harder....this is definitely not the case....leonard was a great boxer and could land shots when he wanted....why wouldn't he hit as hard as eh could to end fights as early as possibly?.....theres a reason he didn't plant his feet as much as tszyu and that is because he wouldn't get the results....tszyu planted his feet more because he had the power to make that style work...

no doubt tszyu is the bigger banger.....even compare their amateur records when tszyu moved around a lot more and was one of the best amateurs of all time.....tszyu ended many of his bouts with knockouts and tko's....i find it hard to believe you feel pound 4 pound leonard is a bigger banger......tszyu was a monster at 140lb.....leonard was taller but tszyu had that hige thick torso, a bit like duran's build....

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

if u think tszyu would go down in a toe to toe then you believe leonard hits harder....this is definitely not the case........

Well, I was also thinking that Ray took a better shot, and was naturally bigger too. Ray would KO Tsyzu if for some reason they met. No doubt.

As for p4p: I don't think I said Leonard was p4p a heavier hitter. That fictitious measure would likely favor Tsyzu.

cowzerp

tryingmybestt wrote: »

if u think tszyu would go down in a toe to toe then you believe leonard hits harder....this is definitely not the case....leonard was a great boxer and could land shots when he wanted....why wouldn't he hit as hard as eh could to end fights as early as possibly?.....theres a reason he didn't plant his feet as much as tszyu and that is because he wouldn't get the results....tszyu planted his feet more because he had the power to make that style work...

He simply fought to his biggest strenght which was skill, if he planted his feet he would have knocked more out but would have lost more fights, that is obvious-Tszyu did not have near his skill level so had to take people out where Leonard could pick them apart, Ali is another example of this, he could KO anyone but his style would have suffered if he baceme that type of fighter.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Well, I was also thinking that Ray took a better shot, and was naturally bigger too. Ray would KO Tsyzu if for some reason they met. No doubt.

tszyu had at least as good a chin as ray...he was only ever rocked by philips and that was as much tiredeness than anything....being stopped by the ref still standing....tszyu is the much heavier hitter and has an equal or better chin so ray has to go down......no doubt

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

tryingmybestt wrote: »

if u think tszyu would go down in a toe to toe then you believe leonard hits harder....this is definitely not the case....leonard was a great boxer and could land shots when he wanted....why wouldn't he hit as hard as eh could to end fights as early as possibly?.....theres a reason he didn't plant his feet as much as tszyu and that is because he wouldn't get the results....tszyu planted his feet more because he had the power to make that style work...

He simply fought to his biggest strenght which was skill, if he planted his feet he would have knocked more out but would have lost more fights, that is obvious-Tszyu did not have near his skill level so had to take people out where Leonard could pick them apart, Ali is another example of this, he could KO anyone but his style would have suffered if he baceme that type of fighter.

Paul I agree with your post except for one bit. You say Leonard would have lost more fights if he chose to war or plant his feet and trade. I would love to know who, apart from possibly a MW Hagler, would have done the trick? Leonard was so good because he could SLUG and could BOX. That is what makes his so good. Such a versatile fighter. Speaking in his peak obviously.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

Paul I agree with your post except for one bit. You say Leonard would have lost more fights if he chose to war or plant his feet and trade. I would love to know who, apart from possibly a MW Hagler, would have done the trick? Leonard was so good because he could SLUG and could BOX. That is what makes his so good. Such a versatile fighter. Speaking in his peak obviously.

Duran beat him when he stood with him, Hearns was a bigger man and may have too-he's my favourite ever fighter so i'm not knocking him, i'm simply stating that you win easier fighting to your best strenght.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Duran beat him when he stood with him, Hearns was a bigger man and may have too-he's my favourite ever fighter so i'm not knocking him, i'm simply stating that you win easier fighting to your best strenght.

Yes, fight to your strength, but even with Duran, that was a pretty close fight. Ray could do it both ways, as you noted.

Hearns is always dangerous, but in fight 1 Ray became the hunter, the fighter, the slugger, and won.

Fight 2 Ray and Hearns boxed and slugged, and it was Ray who always looked like the one doing more damage, despite the knock downs.

megadodge

On topic I believe Duran would beat Tszyu. They are two of my favourite fighters.

Duran was a defensive genius, a relentless combination puncher, a heavy puncher at any stage of the fight, waaaaay more skill than generally accepted, excellent chin and when fully fit (often a problem) had endless energy (as witnessed by the many late KO's on his record).

Tszyu was a more one-dimenional boxer, with a huge right hand, great concentration and intelligence, also had better overall skill than generally credited with, good stamina, good chin and reasonable defense.

I think Duran would do a similar job to Hatton. He'd smother Tszyu, not giving him the room to throw his bombs and simply outpunch Kostya. Probably a late stoppage for Roberto.

Off-topic, I think Tszyu was a bigger single puncher than SRL. I do qualify that though by saying that there wouldn't be much in it as I think SRL was an underrated puncher but as has already been mentioned it was overshadowed by his speed, skill and showmanship.

I think SRL had a better chin than Tszyu though.

I also think the reason Ray became the puncher and Hearns the boxer in their first fight was because Ray couldn't outbox Tommy (nobody could) so he had to try to end it early and of course despite what Walshie said Tommy didn't have that good of a chin, so you didn't have to be a huge puncher to hurt him.

walshb

megadodge wrote: »

I think SRL had a better chin than Tszyu though.

I also think the reason Ray became the puncher and Hearns the boxer in their first fight was because Ray couldn't outbox Tommy (nobody could) so he had to try to end it early and of course despite what Walshie said Tommy didn't have that good of a chin, so you didn't have to be a huge puncher to hurt him.

Yes, I agree. Ray was forced to be the aggressor and hunter. As for Tommy's chin? Wasn't dreadful. He took some very good shots. I don't know what it was, he just seemed to lack the recuperative abilities. Stopped on his feet vs. Ray. Ko'd by a moster shot vs. Barkley. Hagler wore him out and then took him out. He survived many troublesome moments in his career. Not a great chin, but not a bad chin either. Bit like Lennox Lewis.

As for the power of either. Impossible to say. P4P, which I think is so flawed, Tsyzu is probably heavier handed. He is more a natural heavy handed fighter.

But, Ray was a bigger man, naturally heavier, and with that incredible speed and technique, then I think the force per punch for either man could be level, or even slightly in Ray's favour. Tsyzu was a cruder hitter.

Hearns brutalises Tsyzu. I don't think Tsyzu knocks Hearns out.

tryingmybestt

megadodge wrote: »

On topic I believe Duran would beat Tszyu. They are two of my favourite fighters.

Duran was a defensive genius, a relentless combination puncher, a heavy puncher at any stage of the fight, waaaaay more skill than generally accepted, excellent chin and when fully fit (often a problem) had endless energy (as witnessed by the many late KO's on his record).

Tszyu was a more one-dimenional boxer, with a huge right hand, great concentration and intelligence, also had better overall skill than generally credited with, good stamina, good chin and reasonable defense.

I think Duran would do a similar job to Hatton. He'd smother Tszyu, not giving him the room to throw his bombs and simply outpunch Kostya. Probably a late stoppage for Roberto.

Off-topic, I think Tszyu was a bigger single puncher than SRL. I do qualify that though by saying that there wouldn't be much in it as I think SRL was an underrated puncher but as has already been mentioned it was overshadowed by his speed, skill and showmanship.

I think SRL had a better chin than Tszyu though.

I also think the reason Ray became the puncher and Hearns the boxer in their first fight was because Ray couldn't outbox Tommy (nobody could) so he had to try to end it early and of course despite what Walshie said Tommy didn't have that good of a chin, so you didn't have to be a huge puncher to hurt him.

agree with most of the above......duran was a genius with his slips and feints on the inside especially....probably my fav fighter.......i would see duran beating tszyu....but i could also see how tszyu might win in the first 3 rounds with a big right hand.......not impossible

agree that ray become the puncher because he had to because he was so far behind on the score cards, he was desperate and his desire and determination kicked in and made him find a way like all champions do......very difficult to outbox tommy with his huge wingspan....