Troika advising more changes to motor tax system in 2013

_Kaiser_

Just saw this over in the Irish Economy forum

The main proposals for new taxes outlined by Government negotiators to the troika late last year were: a value-based property tax (to replace the €100 household charge); a further rise in carbon tax; hikes in vehicle and motor taxes as part of a reform to revert from emissions-based charges; further changes in PRSI; reducing the tax-related cost of private pension provision; and increased excises for alcohol and tobacco.

Revert eh?? Back to the old CC system I presume? I'd imagine anyone who bought into the "cheap emissions tax" will be even more pissed off now if this goes ahead!

Anyone heard any more about this?

keithclancy

Your surprised ?

I knew this 'Cheap Tax' thing would never last.

_Kaiser_

keithclancy wrote: »

Your surprised ?

I knew this 'Cheap Tax' thing would never last.

Not really surprised that the costs are going to keep increasing by increasing the rates themselves- more by the (apparent) proposal to scrap the system altogether in favor of the older one.

Kaiser2000

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

............

Anyone heard any more about this?

A reform was always on the cards, part of FG's plan iirc, the recent hikes were a stop gap to get some cash in.

The emissions system was daft in the extreme as it didn't factor in the potential for manufacturers to reduce emissions to such low levels across such a large range of motors.

Of course if stamp duty and other revenue was still pouring in and we weren't up to our arse in debt 'twould be fine.

The Greens :cool: :pac:

MidlandsM

keithclancy wrote: »

Your surprised ?

I knew this 'Cheap Tax' thing would never last.

+ 1 x 1000

€104 v's €1297 for a 3.0yoke..........such a mess.

Rob C

The previous Government were caught out very badly and didn't take into account the advances in Engine efficiency especially in that big Executive class of cars that managed to get CO2 levels so low. It was a huge drop from 610 Euro to 156. And now our idiot politicians will simply revert to the same old same old.

Atomic Pineapple

About time it was changed back, took long enough to realise it was a cuckoo Greens policy and should never have been implemented in the first place!

Gophur

The buyers of new cars get enough subsidy/discount for a low emissions car when they buy it without having to subsidise them for the lifetime of the car as well.

All cars should be subject to the same annual taxation, it being an ownership tax.

Rob C

I've been jammy. I changed my 06 2.0 litre diesel in December to the same model but 2010. So was able to tax it in December for the year @156 Euro beating the hikes and if this changes again in Decembers budget, I'll beat that again!:D

Gophur

draffodx wrote: »

About time it was changed back, took long enough to realise it was a cuckoo Greens policy and should never have been implemented in the first place!

For all the blame one can attribute to the Greens, the car CO2 system was a Fianna Fail initiative and an FF implementation.

Rob C

It will still clearly be the case though that any Electric or Hybrid cars will pay virtually no tax. I can't see them changing that. Or else you'll find a lot of p***ed off Leaf owners even more depressed as they sit in the hard shoulder of the M50 with no power!

Rob C

Rob C wrote: »

I've been jammy. I changed my 06 2.0 litre diesel in December to the same model but 2010. So was able to tax it in December for the year @156 Euro beating the hikes ..................

€69 saving over a year :eek:
Jammy indeed.

Rob C

RoverJames wrote: »

€69 saving over a year :eek:
Jammy indeed.

Don't mock. We're in the Tesco era now....

2 stroke

Council services need funding, this cheap tax was never going to work long term.

_Kaiser_

2 stroke wrote: »

Council services need funding, this cheap tax was never going to work long term.

But the monies raised by Motor tax don't go to the councils as far as I'm aware (isn't that what the "Household CHarge" is allegedly for?).. they go into the general black hole that everything else we pay for does.

Kaiser2000

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

But the monies raised by Motor tax don't go to the councils as far as I'm aware (isn't that what the "Household CHarge" is allegedly for?).. they go into the general black hole that everything else we pay for does.

Well the more they get from motor tax the less they'll be trying to get elsewhere

_Kaiser_

RoverJames wrote: »

Well the more they get from motor tax the less they'll be trying to get elsewhere

You've more faith in our "Public" Servants than I do (and I say that as a former PS worker myself)

tayto lover

Why don't F.G. and Labour just p!ss off and let our German masters take over the whole show anyway? They are surplus to requirements it seems.

Rob C

RoverJames wrote: »

Well the more they get from motor tax the less they'll be trying to get elsewhere

Jaysus, how naive can one be??

Kaiser2000

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

You've more faith in our "Public" Servants than I do (and I say that as a former PS worker myself)

Not really, I prefer these indirect taxes to the likes of the USC etc. I do think FG are somewhat ethical in comparison to what went before.

Also, I find it fairly ridiculous that folks buying new cars for €30 to €40k pay practically no (€200 ish) motor tax.

2 stroke

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

But the monies raised by Motor tax don't go to the councils as far as I'm aware (isn't that what the "Household CHarge" is allegedly for?).. they go into the general black hole that everything else we pay for does.

What do you think fills the potholes and lines their pockets?

keithclancy

RoverJames wrote: »

Not really, I prefer these indirect taxes to the likes of the USC etc. I do think FG are somewhat ethical in comparison to what went before.

Also, I find it fairly ridiculous that folks buying new cars for €30 to €40k pay practically no (€200 ish) motor tax.

Me too, gives you the option not to pay it.

Although you'll always have the person saying that your just paying for it twice because they wont reduce another tax to compensate.

If its direct taxation you have no choice.

listermint

And the fact that i prop up the second hand market and parts market with mine yet pay over 1600 tax irks me greatly.

Rob C

RoverJames wrote: »

Not really, I prefer these indirect taxes to the likes of the USC etc. I do think FG are somewhat ethical in comparison to what went before.

Also, I find it fairly ridiculous that folks buying new cars for €30 to €40k pay practically no (€200 ish) motor tax.

Why is that ridiculous? They already would be contributing more to the exchequer with the VAT/VRT then the Yaris buyer and are driving on the exact same road. Not as if they get any privileges. Plus they would be paying more on fuel which also would be giving more cash to the revenue.

Maybe allow those with more expensive cars and paying more road tax privileges like using bus lanes or reserve the outer motorway lanes for them?

After all, they'll be paying more.

Rob C

Rob C wrote: »

Why is that ridiculous? They already would be contributing more to the exchequer with the VAT/VRT then the Yaris buyer and are driving on the exact same road. Not as if they get any privileges. Plus they would be paying more on fuel which also would be giving more cash to the revenue.

Maybe allow those with more expensive cars and paying more road tax privileges like using bus lanes or reserve the outer motorway lanes for them?

After all, they'll be paying more.

I don't know where you have pulled the Yaris from tbh
Where do you pull the they are paying more on fuel line from?

It's ridiculous imo because if someone can justify paying €40k on a car they can no doubt afford to pay €600 road tax like they did before 2008
They'd have bought the car anyway in the vast majority of cases.

Seth Brundle

Rob C wrote: »

Don't mock. We're in the Tesco era now....

What? Our money goes abroad?

Rob C

RoverJames wrote: »

I don't know where you have pulled the Yaris from tbh
Where do you pull the they are paying more on fuel line from?

It's ridiculous imo because if someone can justify paying €40k on a car they can no doubt afford to pay €600 road tax like they did before 2008
They'd have bought the car anyway in the vast majority of cases.

Ah....so those who work hard and get ahead through their talents should continue to foot the majority of tax revenue?

We need a tax payers revolution I think.

Atlantic Dawn

They should leave it as is, when some sucker splashes out €25k so they can tax their motor at €156 a year the government has a far larger tax take in VRT and VAT than taking €600 a year off him if he keeps his current cc based car. Plenty of people foolishly changing for the reason of cheap tax.

Rob C

Rob C wrote: »

Ah....so those who work hard and get ahead through their talents should continue to foot the majority of tax revenue?

We need a tax payers revolution I think.

I never said that, however if you think that owning a €40k car shows that you have gotten "ahead" through your talents I can see why where you're coming from

Do you not think it a tad strange that your 2010 car is cheaper to tax than the 2006 model you had?

Kersh

So will it be a retro implementation, to cover the 2008 on cars, or will there be a golden era of 4 or 5 years worth of 'cheap tax' cars that everyone will want.

With this country and the way things are implemented, it wouldnt surprise me if it was the latter!

pajo1981

They won't won't revert back to the CC system because that would be insane.

They will just raise the rates of the far more sensible CO2 system.

si_guru

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

They should leave it as is, when some sucker splashes out €25k so they can tax their motor at €156 a year the government has a far larger tax take in VRT and VAT than taking €600 a year off him if he keeps his current cc based car. Plenty of people foolishly changing for the reason of cheap tax.

I completely agree - apart from I, like most people, change my car to get a NEW car not to save any motor tax.

Following your thinking to the extreme, I should still be driving that 1972 Beetle I bought in 1985.

Although the 13% VAT on the welding would have been significant by now!

Kersh

Kersh wrote: »

So will it be a retro implementation, to cover the 2008 on cars, or will there be a golden era of 4 or 5 years worth of 'cheap tax' cars that everyone will want..........

I believe it will be the former, the rates will also quite likely be applied retrospectively so many folks will be hit for four years of arrears if you like.

pajo1981

Mark my words, there will be NO return to the daft CC system.

keithclancy

RoverJames wrote: »

I believe it will be the former, the rates will also quite likely be applied retrospectively so many folks will be hit for four years of arrears if you like.

Dont think they could do that, I mean you've already paid the bill so how can you be in arrears.

They could only charge for arrears for lack of payment or a mistake.

keithclancy

keithclancy wrote: »

Dont think they could do that, I mean you've already paid the bill so how can you be in arrears.

They could only charge for arrears for lack of payment or a mistake.

lol, I know :pac:

unknownlegend

I wonder if there's a possibility they could move to putting the tax onto fuel directly and some sort of a rebate or equalization based on car registration (pre/post 08)? Not wanting to get into the whole the pro's and con's of this method of taxation (polluter pays, cross border refuelling, etc) but I wonder is it being considered at all?

Matt Simis

unknownlegend wrote: »

I wonder if there's a possibility they could move to putting the tax onto fuel directly and some sort of a rebate or equalization based on car registration (pre/post 08)? Not wanting to get into the whole the pro's and con's of this method of taxation (polluter pays, cross border refuelling, etc) but I wonder is it being considered at all?

Well a scary thought would be they increase Fuel taxation costs due to "loss of revenue from CO2 Motor Tax" but leave all motor tax as is. So the CO2 guys continue to pay near pittance and the CC people continue to be reamed with the added injury of inflated fuel costs.

Nixer Jim

RoverJames wrote: »

€69 saving over a year :eek:
Jammy indeed.

Nevermind the huge additional loss on depreciation

BrianD3

Bad news for the motor trade I'd say, people will hold off buying new and fresh used cars until they see what's going to happen with the tax.

For those that whinge about the CO2 system - maybe you'd prefer something like they now have in Italy. Cost of taxing a used BMW M5 goes from 1000 GBP to 4400 GBP
http://www.autocar.co.uk/forums/t/21320.aspx

si_guru

BrianD3 wrote: »

Bad news for the motor trade I'd say, people will hold off buying new and fresh used cars until they see what's going to happen with the tax.

For those that whinge about the CO2 system - maybe you'd prefer something like they now have in Italy. Cost of taxing a used BMW M5 goes from 1000 GBP to 4400 GBP
http://www.autocar.co.uk/forums/t/21320.aspx

..and in Italy fuel is what now - €1.90 per litre too!

BrianD3

BrianD3 wrote: »

....................

For those that whinge about the CO2 system - maybe you'd prefer something like they now have in Italy. Cost of taxing a used BMW M5 goes from 1000 GBP to 4400 GBP
http://www.autocar.co.uk/forums/t/21320.aspx

Nope, once the Troika's recommendations are implemented I reckon 'twill be fine

NostrilOToole

New Irish Motor Tax System:-

1. Annual Motor tax based on valuation of car (similar to VRT valuation system) as used in some US states.
2. Exemption for low value cars (<€1000) to meet social / progressive requirement.
3. Plus an additional CO2 levy based on annual mileage recorded at NCT test. (Co2/Km engine rating x kilometres driven per annum)

Troika will insist that the new Motor Tax meets the Canons of Taxation requirements.

The current Motor Tax bias that artificially promotes the transfer €6,000,000,000 pa out of the economy for new car purchases (that doesn't make cars!) is economic illiteracy.

Pensioner forced off the road by a €1000 annual motor tax demand for his 1993 honda after paying "fair" motor tax for the past 40 yrs.

creedp

Rob C wrote: »

Ah....so those who work hard and get ahead through their talents should continue to foot the majority of tax revenue?

We need a tax payers revolution I think.

An alternative way of looking at it is that those who 'got ahead because of their talents' and bought a new car shouldn't be paying less motor tax that the lazy thick gobsh1te that couldn't afford a shiny new motor. Which camp are you in by the way?

vectra

NostrilOToole wrote: »

New Irish Motor Tax System:-


3. Plus an additional CO2 levy based on annual mileage recorded at NCT test. (Co2/Km engine rating x kilometres driven per annum)

.

How can they charge this on cars under 4 years old that do not go to the NCT? ie. Reps clocking up huge mileage in new(ish) cars

cjt156

NostrilOToole wrote: »

New Irish Motor Tax System:-

3. Plus an additional CO2 levy based on annual mileage recorded at NCT test. (Co2/Km engine rating x kilometres driven per annum)

Much simpler to raise the duty on fuel, no?

1. Flat rate of EU200 motor tax for every passenger car in the country.
2. Revenue-neutral (yeah, right) rise in fuel costs.
3. Rebate on fuel costs for hauliers and professional drivers.
4. Rebate on motor tax and fuel costs for all cars with Italian V6 engines, V8s too, oh and V10s..V12 mmmm...OK I'm pushing it now...

Joe 90

cjt156 wrote: »

Much simpler to raise the duty on fuel, no?

1. Flat rate of EU200 motor tax for every passenger car in the country.
2. Revenue-neutral (yeah, right) rise in fuel costs.
3. Rebate on fuel costs for hauliers and professional drivers.
4. Rebate on motor tax and fuel costs for all cars with Italian V6 engines, V8s too, oh and V10s..V12 mmmm...OK I'm pushing it now...

Anything redlined at 8,000 or over.:p

alias no.9

vectra wrote: »

How can they charge this on cars under 4 years old that do not go to the NCT? ie. Reps clocking up huge mileage in new(ish) cars

Doesn't matter anyway, the NCT don't check CO2 emissions.

creedp

alias no.9 wrote: »

Doesn't matter anyway, the NCT don't check CO2 emissions.

Imagine the increase in demand for 'clocking services' if this proposal went ahead. Instead of pre-NCT check you'd have your pre NCT clock

-Corkie-

So I can buy a 10 year old Luxobarge for faffing about and tax it cheaply. Sounds great....:)