Can I get the heating system I want?

enigma1ie

I want to get a stove with a built in boiler, to fit in an open fireplace and keep the same surround just replace insert and the hearth, however i want to put in a cyclinder now and connect the stove to it, and in the future put in the rads. However I was told in the one shop i went into before christmas that i can't do that, that id have to connect the rads now, and that the heat from the stove would be only 2kw so i'd need 1 or 2 rads in the living room (where the stove will be) with the stove. Is this all true? What i didn't ask was if i connected the 2 rads, and got a stove with built in boiler which could support up to 10 rads in the future would that work?

What I ideally want is a stove with built in boiler connected to a cylinder (which is best?, i only want to run water through the rads?) that will give me enough heat out to heat a room 30 square metres in size without adding rads to that room and then put 8 rads in the rest of the house when money is available. How can I do this or come close? All help and advice is greatly appreciated, thanks

Carlow52

most stoves work on a 1/3 room 2/3rds boiler heat output setup- not all but bear with me.

If the room requires say 4kw to heat with no rads then in heating the room the stove will be shoving 8 kw to the rads circuit and unless ur cylinder can absorb that then she will boil. AFAIK the normal cylinders take about 5kw u need to check this

This is the point the shop is making.

Being old school here, u also need a rad or 2 as a heat sink in case the circ pump fails or power is cut and u have the fire going full blast and the cylinder is hot..
The other point is do u really want the pressure of keeping a fire going to heat water/ rads, its a lot of work and can be very wasteful of heat.

Whats plan B for heat if no fire? what kw does the room need to heat?

I would just get the stove with no boiler, a case of chilled beer and a plasma telly:)

enigma1ie

well its an old house and when the weathers cold the fire is always burning, so getting in a stove with built in boiler connecting it to a cylinder and running rads off it is the back up plan:)

enigma1ie

lol, thanks, i have the chilled beer............do you know if this system would use much electricity? and how do i calculkate what kw a room needs?

meligala

Hi enigma1ie,
i installed the system you are considering in May 11 (just gravity to cylinder so far, but hoping to connect to radiators this week) however there are limitations to my system in its current form. i must constantly monitor my cylinder temperature and use the stored heat as required, showers, washing machine, etc.
i use digital thermometers to watch the cylinder and boiler temps.
In addition i only light the fire in the evening (and only use wood so far, no coal) as if it were running all day there would be too much hot water. i have an gas boiler which i can use as back up for heating.

in my experience it is difficult to find a stand alone stove large enough to heat a average sized property that will also fit in a standard fireplace (unless u use an insert stove), i had to widen mine and get rid of old insert and surround. in addition i would advise getting a larger cylinder than the standard 150L, (i put in a 300L with three coils which future proofs the system to some degree)
A lot of installers recommend putting a radiator in the same room as the stove, but this is not necessary if the stove is properly sized for the room.
I think the idea to install a heat sink radiator or two on the gravity circuit to the cylinder is a good (and maybe essential) intermediate solution until you get the rest of the radiators in, it will help prevent water boiling.
Hope my 2cents is of some use to you.

enigma1ie

excellant meligala, can you tell me a few things, what exactly is gravity to cylinder?, I'm thinking its conecting the stove with built in boiler to the the cylinder and the water to the cylinder? did you have to buy a special kind of stove with a built in boiler to do this or do all stoves with built in boilers allow you to do this?

enigma1ie

i've a few more questions if you dont mind answering that would be great meligala you said you "must constantly monitor my cylinder temperature and use the stored heat as required, showers, washing machine, etc." how often would you have to check cylinder temperature? showers, washing machines what else? can it be connected to, I had only taught about connecting it to rads, as we only recently bought an under sink heater for the water for the shower and wash basin and the washing machine heats the water itself, excuse my ignorance on the issue so all info really appreciated and what would happen if you didn't monitor cylinder temperature?

meligala

Hi Enigma1ie,
Yes a gravity (or primary) circuit is the connection to the cylinder. So called as hot water will rise to the cylinder, give up its heat to the cylinder and fall back down to the stove naturally. This all happens without the need for a pump.
Most stoves have 4 outlets at the back, 2 at the top (where hot water leaves the stove) and 2 at the bottom (where cooler water returns to stove) the gravity circuit uses one of each of these to heat water in the cylinder. This circuit must be piped in 1 inch copper and must rise continuously to the cylinder and fall continuously back to the stove , any dips will impede the gravity circuit and could be dangerous, this circuit should not have any valves, pumps and as few 90degree bends as possible, and also be as short as possible.
This circuit to the cylinder also includes the osvp and feed and expansion pipes that will need to be installed to a new tank in the attic, these are the critical safety components in a open vented boiler stove set up.
Stoves are either boiler or non boiler, only boiler stoves can heat water.
I check the temperature often, but wont have to once the radiators are connected.
The hot water from the cylinder supplies the shower and the washing machine therefore using up the store of hot water. If u kept adding heat to a cylinder without using the hot water the water in the cylinder would boil! Not good for your pipework, lots of banging.

There is a good diagram of a typical circuit layout at stovesonline.co.uk/central_heating_wood_stove.html


best thing to do is chat with a plumber for the fine details

enigma1ie

thanks meligala for all that, could u tell me what osvp is? may i ask what kind cylinder you got nd what price range should i be expecting, any tips on the rads and price estimates and just curious to what stove you got? think I'm nearly covered then, you've been a great help to me thanks

enigma1ie

just checked out that link you gave me, very helpfull, didn't realise id need 2 tanks , thats what it looks like in diagram, is that right? and what size should they be, this project is getting more expensive by the way, looks might i have to settle with just an ordinary stove:(

meligala

Hi Enigma1ie,
I got a ferroli cylinder, 3 coil (one large coil for the stove), 300 L, it was 800Euro in heiton buckleys. You may only need a cylinder with 2 coils. I bought an Inis Meain 15kw boiler stove around 1600Euro. Rads in comparison are relatively cheap, for example a single rad 1200*500 is approx 80Euro.
You should already have a large tank in you attic that supplies cold water to you cylinder and taps, the second tank is a lot smaller (called F and E tank), approx 80 litre and very cheap, it supplies water to the stove circuit to account for evaporation and also collects water if it ever boils up through the osvp, in the diagram that’s the pipe that goes up and over and hangs down into the tank, it (The osvp ) just gives boiling water somewhere to go, it can expand up this pipe and fall into the f and e tank.
I reckon there will be very little change from 3000Euro, the greatest hidden cost is copper pipe and fittings, seem to be constantly going up in price.
Best of luck

freddyuk

meligala wrote: »

Hi Enigma1ie,
I got a ferroli cylinder, 3 coil (one large coil for the stove), 300 L, it was 800Euro in heiton buckleys. You may only need a cylinder with 2 coils. I bought an Inis Meain 15kw boiler stove around 1600Euro. Rads in comparison are relatively cheap, for example a single rad 1200*500 is approx 80Euro.
You should already have a large tank in you attic that supplies cold water to you cylinder and taps, the second tank is a lot smaller (called F and E tank), approx 80 litre and very cheap, it supplies water to the stove circuit to account for evaporation and also collects water if it ever boils up through the osvp, in the diagram that’s the pipe that goes up and over and hangs down into the tank, it (The osvp ) just gives boiling water somewhere to go, it can expand up this pipe and fall into the f and e tank.
I reckon there will be very little change from 3000Euro, the greatest hidden cost is copper pipe and fittings, seem to be constantly going up in price.
Best of luck

Is the F&E tank able to withstand superheated water? Also the ballcock and overflow should be copper to prevent the potential for the plastic melting and allowing very hot water to flood through your ceiling.
It has happened and serious injuries resulted. I would not use an old plastic tank and fittings for a gravity stove system.

enigma1ie

meligala wrote: »

Hi Enigma1ie,
I got a ferroli cylinder, 3 coil (one large coil for the stove), 300 L, it was 800Euro in heiton buckleys. You may only need a cylinder with 2 coils. I bought an Inis Meain 15kw boiler stove around 1600Euro. Rads in comparison are relatively cheap, for example a single rad 1200*500 is approx 80Euro.
You should already have a large tank in you attic that supplies cold water to you cylinder and taps, the second tank is a lot smaller (called F and E tank), approx 80 litre and very cheap, it supplies water to the stove circuit to account for evaporation and also collects water if it ever boils up through the osvp, in the diagram that’s the pipe that goes up and over and hangs down into the tank, it (The osvp ) just gives boiling water somewhere to go, it can expand up this pipe and fall into the f and e tank.
I reckon there will be very little change from 3000Euro, the greatest hidden cost is copper pipe and fittings, seem to be constantly going up in price.
Best of luck

Thanks a million for all that, actually the house doesn't even have an attic opening or a tank, do little bit of hassle there possibly, going to get a guy from new grange heating solutions I think their called to price the job they do everything budget can be pushed out to 5000 max so hopefully this will do it. Old chimney is very open all the ways up if I have to pack this, it could cost a bit. Is copper piping the only kind that can be used? And is it copper piping that is used to connect cylinder to rads and do copper pipes run into the tank in the attic? Also is there only certain rads that can be used for this kind if heating? What's the best or better makes for cylinders and rads, no difference in copper piping I assume? Thanks for all the help to date, I've learnt a lot:)