Capello on Germany....bloody hell :D

Father Damo

Whilst I 100% agree that this crap of players coming to a country as adults to play in a domestic league and turn out for the national side 5 years on has to end immediately.....this isnt even what the clown is talking about

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2011/1230/capellof_england.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_national_football_team#Squad

Amongst the current squad and recent call ups I counted 17 England players that are likely eligible for other countries, including at least two for us (and no, not Rooney. How this rumour still abounds when he himself stated he has no recent Irish born family is baffling). 11 of the German squad were dual eligible- about 8 of Englands were. Given at least 2 of the Germans were foreign born.....they pretty much have an equal amount.

You would expect some nonsense like this from a McClaren or Staunton but Capello should really know better. With everyones favourite loveable rogue Terry up to carry on which will probably have the team as unified as they were during the disastrous world cup Capello will no doubt be trying to find another international team to manage after this summer. A team which will more than likely have foreign league imports playing for the national side (seeing as most European teams seem to have one by now)

Royale with Cheese

I'm not sure about all of them but Germany's 'Turkish imports' like Ozil, Tasci etc. are German citizens, born and bred. Podolski and Klose were born in Poland but have lived in Germany the majority of their lives.

Basically he's talking utter shíte. Sure look at the Turkish national team and you'll find a number of German born players, if anything it's Turkey he should be pissed at. But then Turkey didn't knock him out of the last World Cup...

Father Damo

Indeed. If it was just a run of the mill manager I dont think anyone would notice, but for a guy of his apparent calibre to come out with such rubbish is just plain sour grapes.

batistuta9

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

I'm not sure about all of them but Germany's 'Turkish imports' like Ozil, Tasci etc. are German citizens, born and bred. Podolski and Klose were born in Poland but have lived in Germany the majority of their lives.

Basically he's talking utter shíte.

it's looks like it,

khedira(only other of turkish decent i think) is a german as well, apart from the two you listed the only other one who i can see as 'foreign' are trochowski(polish, moved to germany at 5) & cacau(brazilian, he got citizenship)

here's the squad: link

he has a point with the clubs stealing the players(but if they didn't would they turn out as good?) though and maybe just when off on a rant blaming germany for the WC exit :pac:

Sirsok

Boatang does he descent from Ghana? Or his neo plays for em?

Father Damo

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/16361128.stm

Rather odd. BBC reports on the club aspect but absoloutely no mention of the international rubbish.

Didnt he even consider calling up Almunia and Arteta at various points?

EdenHazard

what a moron.

batistuta9

Sirsok wrote: »

Boatang does he descent from Ghana? Or his neo plays for em?

his brother plays for them but their german born

Father Damo wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/16361128.stm

Rather odd. BBC reports on the club aspect but absoloutely no mention of the international rubbish.

Didnt he even consider calling up Almunia and Arteta at various points?

don't think so, maybe arteta. it was just brought up in the media a lot at the time that they were eligible.
also don't think arteta was in the end up

batistuta9

Father Damo wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/16361128.stm

Rather odd. BBC reports on the club aspect but absoloutely no mention of the international rubbish.

just google his name it's in all the papers/sites(germans not happy)
looks like the BBC are just trying to keep him looking sane enough

ArmaniJeanss

Bizarre stuff from Capello.
Klose moved to Germany when he was 7, Podolski when he was 2.

It was incredibly far sighted of Joachim Low to drag them over the border when one was in short pants and the other in nappies.

Too much Pinot Grigio over the festive season maybe.

Father Damo

Though the Polish dont like it, Klose considered himself more German culturally anyway, as hes ethnic German born in a part of Poland that used to be part of Germany. Bit like Gibson etc preferring to play for the team they feel reps them better.

Id be in full agreement if he used his speech to rail against the nonsense of domestic players getting international call ups. Especially seeing as he made the speech in the Mid East- some of the richer small oil states have squads comprised nearly entirely of mid level Brazillian league players.

Optimalprimerib

So, making excuses prematurely for their crap performances in the euros?

Should he not be looking more into why the majority of players in the English league (pl anyway) are foreign and illegible, whereas the german, Spanish and Italian leagues have a higher number of quality homegrown players, whether their origins are national or not?

Oat23

The only person he has any sort of case against is Cacau. The other 3 who have been in the NT recently who were born outside of Germany are Poldi, Klose and Trochowski, all moved to Germany when they were kids. The German-Turks were all born and raised in Germany, so why the hell is he going on about them . Because they were raised in Turkish communities doesn't make them any less German.

Liam O

Oatesy23 wrote: »

The only person he has any sort of case against is Cacau. The other 3 who have been in the NT recently who were born outside of Germany are Poldi, Klose and Trochowski, all moved to Germany when they were kids. The German-Turks were all born and raised in Germany, so why the hell is he going on about them . Because they were raised in Turkish communities doesn't make them any less German.

Podolski is the most German looking person in the world too. It's a ridiculous argument, sure Ireland would barely be able to put out a decent team without the granny rule. Italians do seem a bit xenophobic about their players though...

Crazy Horse 6

I'm sure he could care less tbh. England are paying him a disgusting amount of money in the hope he can make them do well in a major tournament. What a champ.

losthorizon

What Capello doesnt understand being from Italy uniquely for a continental european country ( and the same goes for Ireland) is that European nations borders aren't static. So Germany used to be much larger and further east and Poland was further east as well. So Gdansk in Poland used to be Danzik in Germany and full of Germans. Oatesy23 mentioned all the Poles playing for Germany but I mean Klose is as German a name as you can get. Its like Murphy to an Irish man. There are loads of Germans as well living in Romania and loads of Hungarians living in Serbia and Slovakia due to Hungary controlling these areas during the Austria-Hungarian Empire. I also don't have a problem with African players playing with a nation if they come and live in that country for say five or so years. If he was a factory worker its allowed so whats the difference with a footballer?

In the years ahead you are bound to get kids growing up here, who were born abroad, then maybe play a season or two league of Ireland and and have a choice to make about which country to play for. IE Do you play now or hope for a move abroad and an Irish cap

Le King

Podolski actually wanted to represent Poland. But he was shot down by the manager at the time.

Klose is Silesean anyway and that name is definitely German

Dotrel

It's a bad sign when your manager is already making excuses 6 months before a ball is kicked. This coupled with their ludicrous training camp arrangements means you can probably add another +2 to however many "years of hurt" the song lyric is currently up to.

parker kent

Liam O wrote: »

It's a ridiculous argument, sure Ireland would barely be able to put out a decent team without the granny rule.

OK this is a side issue but Shay Given, John O'Shea, Richard Dunne, Darren O'Dea, Stephen Ward, Séamus Coleman, Damien Duff, Keith Fahey, Glenn Whelan, Stephen Hunt, Robbie Keane, Kevin Doyle, Shane Long and many others are all born in Ireland.

Do we use the granny rule? Yes. Are we reliant on it to put out a team? No. Are most of our team born in Ireland? Yes.

losthorizon wrote: »

What Capello doesnt understand being from Italy uniquely for a continental european country ( and the same goes for Ireland) is that European nations borders aren't static.

Ehhh...what? Surely Irish people know full well that countries can change (Northern Ireland any one?). As for Italy, until very recently it was just a collection of separate kingdoms and city-states. It only unified in the 19th century. Then after World War 1, Italy gained Trieste, Gorizia, Istria and the city of Zara. During World War 2, they added Split, Kotor and most of coastal Dalmatia. For a while they had Corsica and Nice. After World War 2 this all changed again with those areas going back to France, Yugoslavia (now Croatia) etc. Look up the Istrian-Dalmatian exodus to read about ethic Italians leaving those areas after World War 2. So this is pretty much the same as the German borders being re-drawn and they are most definitely aware that borders are not static.

Anyway, on topic Capello just sounded like an idiot when he used the German/Turkish example. The German side was one of the worst examples he could have used. There are genuine cases such as the rise of the mercenary Brazilian, but the German side is definitely not one.

blue-army

Liam O wrote: »

Podolski is the most German looking person in the world too. It's a ridiculous argument, sure Ireland would barely be able to put out a decent team without the granny rule. Italians do seem a bit xenophobic about their players though...

What a load of sh*te! St Ledger and McGeady are the only real 'granny rule' players we regularly start.


Given
Kelly Dunne O Shea Ward

Duff Andrews Whelan Hunt

Keane Doyle

Not to mention:
Murphy
O'Dea
Long
Hoolahan
Fahey
Treacy
Coleman
Keogh
etc..

losthorizon

parker kent wrote: »

OK this is a side issue but Shay Given, John O'Shea, Richard Dunne, Darren O'Dea, Stephen Ward, Séamus Coleman, Damien Duff, Keith Fahey, Glenn Whelan, Stephen Hunt, Robbie Keane, Kevin Doyle, Shane Long and many others are all born in Ireland.

Do we use the granny rule? Yes. Are we reliant on it to put out a team? No. Are most of our team born in Ireland? Yes.



Ehhh...what? Surely Irish people know full well that countries can change (Northern Ireland any one?). As for Italy, until very recently it was just a collection of separate kingdoms and city-states. It only unified in the 19th century. Then after World War 1, Italy gained Trieste, Gorizia, Istria and the city of Zara. During World War 2, they added Split, Kotor and most of coastal Dalmatia. For a while they had Corsica and Nice. After World War 2 this all changed again with those areas going back to France, Yugoslavia (now Croatia) etc. Look up the Istrian-Dalmatian exodus to read about ethic Italians leaving those areas after World War 2. So this is pretty much the same as the German borders being re-drawn and they are most definitely aware that borders are not static.

I think really Irish people think of Ireland as the full Island no matter what the border line says and thats reflected in the passport situation and I'm not a nationalist. Italy has historically been more or less in the same place with Italian speaking peoples (despite it being a collection of mini-states). This is fundamentally different to the rest of Europe and especially Germany and Poland which exist in different places. Claiming that having Fascist troops in Kotor for two or three years under Mussolini is like being part of Italy is odd. I was on Holiday in Kotor - the only thing that it retains from being part of the Venetian Republic for a very short time was nice Piazzas. TBH you are showing the same lack of understanding that Capello is showing.

parker kent

losthorizon wrote: »

Claiming that having Fascist troops in Kotor for two or three years under Mussolini is like being part of Italy is odd. I was on Holiday in Kotor - the only thing that it retains from being part of the Venetian Republic for a very short time was nice Piazzas. TBH you are showing the same lack of understanding that Capello is showing.

That was one example from many, I just added it for emphasis and I specifically said it was just during World War 2. The examples given have varying degrees of importance. Also the reason for a lack of Italian influence in many of those places is the Istrian-Dalmatian exodus which I referred to above. The Italians left. Hence you not seeing them or their influence there whilst on holiday.

There are fairly clear examples of the Italian border changing in the past 2 centuries. I thought your point was mildly ridiculous really. Apart from the above points, it was a sweeping generalisation. You also specified Italians not understanding that borders are not always static. Which given the amount of times their borders have changed in the past 200 odd years is a bit strange.

losthorizon

Kotor is in Montenegro FYI.

parker kent

losthorizon wrote: »

Kotor is in Montenegro FYI.

Where did I say otherwise? I said they returned to "France, Yugoslavia (now Croatia) etc". The etc pretty obviously indicated further countries as there are other cities/areas mentioned in my post as well. Anyway, it was Yugoslavia at the time and there is no need to discuss the break up of Yugoslavia in full. In case you were wondering, the Croatia line was referring to Dalmatia.

But why respond to my points when you can just try to discredit me?

Father Damo

losthorizon wrote: »

. I also don't have a problem with African players playing with a nation if they come and live in that country for say five or so years. If he was a factory worker its allowed so whats the difference with a footballer?

Its mercenay. Should be a rule brouht in that a foreign born kid is only eligible if they cae to the country a a child for non sports related purposes

In the years ahead you are bound to get kids growing up here, who were born abroad, then maybe play a season or two league of Ireland and and have a choice to make about which country to play for. IE Do you play now or hope for a move abroad and an Irish cap

Bar maybe Lativa/ Lithuania there isnt one country with a sizeable migrant pop in Ireland who would be chasing LOI standard players tbh. If Nigeria or Poland were chasing an Irish raised lad you can bet your life he would already be playing in England.

ush

If you've got the passport, then you're part of the tribe and can represent that country. Citizenship rules are set by countries themselves. Countries may have different criteria for naturalisation or ancesteral qualification. But I see no problem in immigrants, even if they're representing a country they emigrated to as professional footballers, representing the country they hold a passport for.

Now I can understand rules against poaching underage players or players changing allegiances mid-career. But FIFA can't dictate to players what their nationality is.

The whole idea of international football is an anachronism to begin with. We live in a globalised world, with fairly liberal migrationary patterns and citizenship laws. And long may it continue.

Capello is wandering into 8 game ban and 40 grand fine territory by bringing this sh*t up.

Father Damo

ush wrote: »

If you've got the passport, then you're part of the tribe and can represent that country. Citizenship rules are set by countries themselves. Countries may have different criteria for naturalisation or ancesteral qualification. But I see no problem in immigrants, even if they're representing a country they emigrated to as professional footballers, representing the country they hold a passport for.

Oh come on.

If all the billionaires of, for example, Kuwait or the UAE, all got together and over 5 years threw obscene money at a load of Argie, Brazillian and etc etc kids to get them to come there and take up citizenship, and in a tournament what might as well be called a S American all star team from Dubai beat Ireland in a tournament, wouldnt you be a bit pissed off? Ive no problem with a foreign born kid playing for Ireland because he has been cheering on our side with all his Irish schoolmates throughout his youth, but if we brought in a foreign lad of 21 to the LOI and tried to bring him into the squad 5 years later I wouldnt want him anywhere near it no matter how skilled he was (though tbh being only LOI level its near on impossible this would ever arise anyway, but hypothetically seaking). Same as how Ill always appreciate the contributions of English born players who loyally supported Ireland as kids like Kilbane and Babb, and even appreciate those who were maybe given a bit of a nudge our direction and aftwerwards played with alot of heart and pride for us (Westwood, St Ledger, Morrison,) but dont want chancers like Jermaine Pennant suddenly realising hes Irish in his late 20s when he realises England dont rate him, Ireland are on the up and whatever other country he is eligible for are doing sh1te.

ush

Father Damo wrote: »

Same as how Ill always appreciate the contributions of English born players who loyally supported Ireland as kids like Kilbane and Babb, and even appreciate those who were maybe given a bit of a nudge our direction and aftwerwards played with alot of heart and pride for us (Westwood, St Ledger, Morrison,) but dont want chancers like Jermaine Pennant suddenly realising hes Irish in his late 20s when he realises England dont rate him, Ireland are on the up and whatever other country he is eligible for are doing sh1te.

Did Babb and Kilbane support loyally support Ireland as kids? How would anyone know that? Why should it matter? Some of our best internationals ever were chancers.

You either qualify for a passport or you don't. Emotive issues don't come into it. Or FIFA would have a nightmare trying to deal with immigration, border disputes, heritage claims etc.

Players move abroad more now than ever before. With that will come dual-citizens, playing for their adopted nations. Attaching values to it can get very murky.

You're either Irish or you're not. You qualify for the passport or you don't. Now there can be motivational issues for example; would an established pro, who declares for Ireland, when other options are looking unlikely, have the necessary frame of mind.

But if Jermaine Pennant or Anton Ferdinand or whoever, sent off the forms and collected the passport, who are we to say they're not Irish. They'd be no more Irish than Townsend or Aldridge.

International football is an anachronism. Top professionals spend extended periods abroad and contribute to their host nations in all manners. Doctors, entrepreneurs, engineers or whatever. Can't say I'd blame the Dubai or Russia national federations for taking advantage of having uncapped south americans based in their leagues.

Are we really the people country to make an issue of this? Not that I think it is an issue.

Better still just abandon international football or turn it into a bastion of amateur sport. Not that FIFA would sacrifice their cash-cow. But CL football is played at a much higher level.

ush

Also if Capello is gonna be a puritan about that sancity of international football, whats he doing managing a foreign country.

ArmaniJeanss

ush wrote: »

If you've got the passport, then you're part of the tribe and can represent that country. Citizenship rules are set by countries themselves. Countries may have different criteria for naturalisation or ancesteral qualification...... But FIFA can't dictate to players what their nationality is.

ush wrote: »

You either qualify for a passport or you don't. Emotive issues don't come into it. Or FIFA would have a nightmare trying to deal with immigration, border disputes, heritage claims etc.

FIFA have already dealt with this, they do 'dictate to players what their nationality is'. Merely 'having the passport' no longer qualifies you to play international football for a country.

Unless you are also qualified via one of the other methods (birth, parents, granny rule, where you were brought up) then you have to wait 5 years.

http://www.insideworldfootball.biz/worldcup/bids/qatar/9302-arab-countries-fail-to-relax-nationality-rules

parker kent

ush wrote: »

Better still just abandon international football or turn it into a bastion of amateur sport. Not that FIFA would sacrifice their cash-cow. But CL football is played at a much higher level.

I couldn't disagree with that any more. Yes the Champions League is played at a higher level but international football will always mean more to me. Ireland qualifying in November was a great, great moment. Almost all of my top football memories involve the Irish national team.

ush

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Unless you are also qualified via one of the other methods (birth, parents, granny rule, where you were brought up) then you have to wait 5 years.

Fine, but I was already assuming that it takes at least 5 fives to become a naturalised citizen of another country. I was never implying that once you move to a country you should be allowed a passport, simply to represent the country in football. The FIFA rule allows naturalised citizens to represent their adopted countries and avoids nasty arguments about who is what and from where.

ArmaniJeanss

ush wrote: »

Fine, but I was already assuming that it takes at least 5 years to become a naturalised citizen of another country. I was never implying that once you move to a country you should be allowed a passport, simply to represent the country in football. The FIFA rule allows naturalised citizens to represent their adopted countries and avoids nasty arguments about who is what and from where.

But the key thing is that you can become a naturalised citizen (with a passport) for some countries 'overnight'*, but cannot play for that country.

Whereas when you said "If you've got the passport, then you're part of the tribe and can represent that country" you seemed to think that the passport was the key thing for qualification. Whereas in fact the qualification rules are way beyond 'passport'. You can have a passport but if you don't meet FIFAs qualification rules then tough.

* overnight is obviously an exageration, but it was literally just weeks for Qatar back in 2002.

ush

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

You can have a passport but if you don't meet FIFAs qualification rules then tough.

FIFA requires a period of residence in the country for naturalisation. Many countries have 5 years as a requirement before applying for naturalised citizenship. Which is only fair.

But besides that, FIFA qualification rule isn't gonna stop a team of Brazilians lining out for someone other than Brazil. They just have to wait 5 years from the start of their residence.

Not that that would be a positive thing. But the other scenario, where people automatically question naturalised citizen's loyalties, is far uglier and more corrosive.

Coillte_Bhoy

ush wrote: »

Did Babb and Kilbane support loyally support Ireland as kids? How would anyone know that?

Dont know about Babb but Kilbane certainly did to the extent that he turned up for an England underage trial in Irish gear.