New house, heating systems advice

bkearns

I'm in the process of designing a new house in the north Kildare area and I’m looking for heating systems advice or any recommended (nonbiased) heating consultants that could provide independent advice. I like the sound of zoned under floor throughout the house, but then you have to consider screed thickness, zone controls, and of course heat source. Vertical collection makes sense to me, but does the initial outlay justify the savings in running costs? What’s the max floor area a single phase heat pump is capable of heating, before you have to go to three phase? Can geothermal and either solid fuel or oil fired range be mixed as two heat sources in the one system? All advice appreciated.

heinbloed

....I’m looking for heating systems advice or any recommended (nonbiased) heating consultants that could provide independent advice.

This should be your priority.

Ask a competent civil engineer/architect to design your house according to demands. Ask for a heating energy demand calculation according to EN 12831.

A question like

What’s the max floor area a single phase heat pump is capable of heating, before you have to go to three phase?

shows that a wrong aproach is chosen.

A demand covering thermal energy source will eliminate a 'pioneer settler design', building around a fire place.

Last question

Can geothermal and either solid fuel or oil fired range be mixed as two heat sources in the one system?

Yes. Make sure you understand the therm 'geo-thermal'....

mark_18tp

if it was me building a house as a plumber i would have;

condensing oil boiler
multi fuel stove with back boiler
solar panels
and a wick oil rayburn in the kicthen (on all the time)

all connected to a thermal store (maxipod)
in the south do you have to have a certain number of renewable engeries??

n.b i am a plumber

Sillyvalleyman

Hi Mark,
Curious as to why you'd choose oil over Nat or LP Gas.

SVMan

mark_18tp

oil or natural gas are as good as eachother

wouldnt use lg as it is to expensive

Sillyvalleyman

I thought Nat Gas was 40-50% cheaper than oil on a per kWhr basis ?

LP is more expensive than oil !

cmd12

Hi im just bumping this thread has anybody ever used somebody to design a heating system for them. I don't know their exact name, we will call them a (plumbing or heat engineer), or know of people who do. I'm not saying i don't trust the local plumber but would there be saving in getting a system designed t work at max efficiency

sky6

Oil will never be as good as Gas. If you have the choice I'd go with Gas every time.
Oil will always let you down when you need it most, It's just the nature of the product. It's a bit like a car battery that's weak or failing. When the cold weather really comes if it's not in top shape it will let you down. Gas very rarely fails.
Yes the smart move would be to get a Heating Engineer to design your system according to your needs. While a lot of Plumbers are very good at designing systems, I've seen some terrible attempts wit either oversized Boilers to huge Rads and people melting in bedrooms.
Your Architect should liaise with the Heating Engineer.
Make sure to get your house airtight and spend the money on Insulation now.
Remember once it's done it's done for a long long time. Rather than be paying for oil or gas for years to come.

cmd12

I don't suppose you would know of any or what to search for.
My point exactly on what you said, there are a million different set ups to be done for each house , possibilities are endless as regards the results.
Somebody who would know how and design a setup for a house and also give desired results, I think would be worth money providing it's not the earths gold he wants in return.
Don't think my architect is talking to me, he got paid and hasn't returned a call yet.

MicktheMan

cmd12 wrote: »

Hi im just bumping this thread has anybody ever used somebody to design a heating system for them. I don't know their exact name, we will call them a (plumbing or heat engineer), or know of people who do. I'm not saying i don't trust the local plumber but would there be saving in getting a system designed t work at max efficiency

Work backwards.
Why do you need a heating system? To heat the house is the wrong answer. To replace the heat that's lost from the house is the correct answer. So by designing and building a house that has absolute minimum heat loss is key. Therefore, concentrate on the building fabric (not just insulation but also air tightness, ventilation, and thermal bridge free) and you will find that the heating solution will be very simple and cost effective. Plus, if done right, the house will be the most comfortable you have ever lived in.

agusta

It really depends what type of system you decide to go with.Air to water heating system is well worth a look at.The system is pre designed by the manufactures of the system is fitting accordingly,Approx costing from feedback,3000sq foot house,heat and hot water,less than a 1000 euro per year.

If using oil or gas a competent plumber will design the system.The good plumbers dont make mistakes in this area
I AGREE 100 percent with MicktheMan post,this is where your architect as well as your own research comes in.This is the most important step

sky6

I totally agree with Mick the Man. That seems to be the best and latest technological way to go. I worked on a similar spec 2.5 sq mt house 2 years ago. it had head recovery, Solar and Oil. The Owners said his heating cost for the first winter was 600 Euro approx.
Don't leave it to the Architect to sort the heating, In my experience they know very little about it. Source your own Heating Engineer. That way you will know what you're getting and you can pick both of their brains.

cmd12

MicktheMan wrote: »

Work backwards.
Why do you need a heating system? To heat the house is the wrong answer. To replace the heat that's lost from the house is the correct answer. So by designing and building a house that has absolute minimum heat loss is key. Therefore, concentrate on the building fabric (not just insulation but also air tightness, ventilation, and thermal bridge free) and you will find that the heating solution will be very simple and cost effective. Plus, if done right, the house will be the most comfortable you have ever lived in.

Sorry MicktheMan i tried writing this 3 times but i still sound like a smart ass,,its not intended as an insult..
I do understand what your saying but you don't stick a Ferrari engine into a Mini and say " she'll be grand ", and you don't stick a mini engine into a Ferrari and say " sure shes got sporty wheels hi " they are both cars and both have 4 wheels and seats but they are different.
But as was said in a previous post of huge boilers heating huge radiators in rooms its just not feasible or smart .
Heat loss would play a major part in the whole building of the house but after all that if you insulate the crap out of it it still dose'nt help to heat the house efficiently if the incorrect system is installed in the house.
We all know about insulation at this stage and it all has to be stated in your Provisional Ber Cert for a start. but there are so many systems available for heating that i guarantee not all plumbers know how to fit them correctly.
For example there is about 50 versions of underfloor heating and solar and geothermal and gas and oil and solid fuel and one that take the tears from small kids and turns them into heat, which ones work properly.
Thermal Stores,Zones/
More types of solar panels than you can shake a stick at
More types of heat pumps than is possible to even know what to do with
Equalizing valves that as far as i can see only work by magic.
I could spend 30 grand on insulation and still be only getting 50 per cent efficiency from a heating system again it does all it has to do because its either burning too much oil or it could be helped by somthing else.
And every company you ring up or person you ask has the best system ever one fill of oil has don them 10 years.
There is a thousand options out there and all i need if for somebody to say if you have a, b and c it saves you money for what you have done but if you only have a,band use d instead of c well thats just a waste

cmd12

sky6 wrote: »

I totally agree with Mick the Man. That seems to be the best and latest technological way to go. I worked on a similar spec 2.5 sq mt house 2 years ago. it had head recovery, Solar and Oil. The Owners said his heating cost for the first winter was 600 Euro approx.
Don't leave it to the Architect to sort the heating, In my experience they know very little about it. Source your own Heating Engineer. That way you will know what you're getting and you can pick both of their brains.

Defiantly not on about using my architect im a carpenter and i wouldnt get him to do a roof.
Basically somebody that designs heating systems or the like that has no affiliation with any particular company or brand, that understands what they are doing and what they are saying. and how it all works

luketitz

I'm in a similar predicament mulling over getting solar panels / geo-thermal.. on an ancient gaff though!

MicktheMan

cmd12 wrote: »

I do understand what your saying

I don't think so

cmd12 wrote: »

Heat loss would play a major part in the whole building of the house but after all that if you insulate the crap out of it it still dose'nt help to heat the house efficiently if the incorrect system is installed in the house.

The whole point I was making is that if the building fabric is done correctly then the heating solution simplifies enormously (to the point of not needing one).

cmd12 wrote: »

We all know about insulation at this stage

Do we?

While we might "all know about insulation at this stage", the majority do not understand why insulating the "crap" out of the building only addresses 1 of the 3 mechanisms of heat loss from it. Btw, the majority I refer to also include those in the building profession.

MicktheMan

cmd12 wrote: »

There is a thousand options out there and all i need if for somebody to say if you have a, b and c it saves you money for what you have done but if you only have a,band use d instead of c well thats just a waste

This is the essence of my point. KEEP IT SIMPLE. Build an excellent thermal envelope and the issue with heating it distills down to a simple (and inexpensive) solution.

Think of it like this. If I was to build a ship with lots of holes allowing water in, then I would also have to install a pretty good (and expensive) pumping system to evacuate the water. The leakier the ship, the larger the pumping system needed.
Now, if I was to build a ship with no holes, then I would need a very small pumping system to keep the ship dry.

cmd12

I do understand mick
But I don't think your picking up what I'm putting down.
Let's say I insulate my house to the top of the line, seal as many gaps as is possible, the house could be used to store water it's that air tight.
What's my cheapest or best way of saving energy on the heating besides the insulation of the house,
I could stick in a good old fashioned oil or gas boiler , yes ,
Which boiler do I use how many btu now that my house is so well insulated
if I use a condensing boiler does it heat up quick enough to work properly or is it just burning too much fuel
If I use a solar panel does it constantly need to dump hot water because it's not using it
Do I use a drain back system.
What radiators do I use surely smaller if my insulation is that good.
If my insulation is good do I just use storage heaters.
Gone are the days of the simple system and to meet most regulations nowadays you need some form of renewable energy and these prices range from a couple hundred to tens of thousands.

I still need hot water and if we get any of the fine winters we had back a few years ago it will need to be kept warm. I'm going to need some form of ventilation whether it be hrv units or god forbid the holes in the wall that we all had to have, and so on
I'm sure with all the new gadgetry that's on the market nowadays some of it is "s41t" and some of it is worth while.

This is something I know very little about I'm not a heating guy ,and I was just asking if somebody knew or used an individual that does do this sort of work who does know, instead of getting pat down the road to say yeah "I'll have a look at that" and ending up with a steam room in the attic.
As I said to meet the requirements now to pass the provisional ber cert you need nearly all of the stuff you stated for insulating the house including heat loss through cold bridging and so on

budhabob

Hi Folks,
This stuff is over my head, however the I was looking at the exhibitors for the Self Build Expo on in City West over the weekend, and theres a good few heating specialists. It might be worthwhile popping along. We got tickets for free, think they still are. May be worth a look so said id let ye know.

http://selfbuild.ie/show-features/exhibitors/

Rob

MicktheMan

Okay, I get you now.:)

What you are looking for is someone to model the building specification to determine the heat load of the house and then translate this into a cost effective and efficient solution.
I would suggest you look for a passive house consultant/designer as they are trained in this type of modelling.

cmd12

MicktheMan wrote: »

Okay, I get you now.:)

What you are looking for is someone to model the building specification to determine the heat load of the house and then translate this into a cost effective and efficient solution.
I would suggest you look for a passive house consultant/designer as they are trained in this type of modelling.

Nail on the head Mick
Dont suppose you know of or could recommend somebody

StonyIron

I don't agree with the "oil will let you down" post.

Any oil system we've ever had over the years has been superbly reliable.

The failures that have mostly plagued heating systems we've had had been the water plumbing aspects : failed pumps, stuck valves, leaks etc

A boiler with an annual service will generally work flawlessly : gas or oil.

MicktheMan

cmd12 wrote: »

Nail on the head Mick
Dont suppose you know of or could recommend somebody

Where?

cmd12

MicktheMan wrote: »

Where?

well im in the louth area so anywhere that is feasible for a company i suppose.
i not overly pushed on where they are from

antoinolachtnai

If your insulation is really good, and you the amount of heat required has been worked out, and it is low, why not, as you say, use electric? You can have storage heaters, and you can use a few fan heaters to provide a boost if it gets really cold, but that rarely happens.

The big thing is to ask your existing suppliers to tell you what they estimate the heat loss of the completed building will be. Then calculate how much heat you will need on a moderately cold day and a really cold day. See how much it is worth investing to heat this less expensively than electricity. If you only need a few thousand KWh a year, then you might be better off with electric.

Every so often I hear about someone with a completely over engineered heating system. The problem with getting in an expert is that they seem to be inclined to prescribe a solution that is complex. I am sure there are very good people out there, but in reality, there is not much money in going to someone's house, measuring it up, looking at the insulation and then telling them that all they really need are a few fan heaters.

You could put in piping for radiators and a coil in the hot water tank, and then put in an oil boiler later if you find you really need it.

cmd12

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

If your insulation is really good, and you the amount of heat required has been worked out, and it is low, why not, as you say, use electric? You can have storage heaters, and you can use a few fan heaters to provide a boost if it gets really cold, but that rarely happens.

The big thing is to ask your existing suppliers to tell you what they estimate the heat loss of the completed building will be. Then calculate how much heat you will need on a moderately cold day and a really cold day. See how much it is worth investing to heat this less expensively than electricity. If you only need a few thousand KWh a year, then you might be better off with electric.

Every so often I hear about someone with a completely over engineered heating system. The problem with getting in an expert is that they seem to be inclined to prescribe a solution that is complex. I am sure there are very good people out there, but in reality, there is not much money in going to someone's house, measuring it up, looking at the insulation and then telling them that all they really need are a few fan heaters.

You could put in piping for radiators and a coil in the hot water tank, and then put in an oil boiler later if you find you really need it.

another fair point
i do understand where you come from on over engineering , somebody who wishes to justify their degree and prescribes a system that would make the plumbing on the Apollo space craft o shame.
its just a confusing set of options out there to go for when it comes to the heating somthing simplistic in the end might just be the easiest option

galwaytt

MicktheMan wrote: »

Work backwards.
Why do you need a heating system? To heat the house is the wrong answer. To replace the heat that's lost from the house is the correct answer. So by designing and building a house that has absolute minimum heat loss is key. Therefore, concentrate on the building fabric (not just insulation but also air tightness, ventilation, and thermal bridge free) and you will find that the heating solution will be very simple and cost effective. Plus, if done right, the house will be the most comfortable you have ever lived in.

^^^^^^, by 1,000,000

you don't start by specifying the heating system, you start by specifying the building. When you know what it wants, then you look at how do deliver it.

cmd12

galwaytt wrote: »

^^^^^^, by 1,000,000

you don't start by specifying the heating system, you start by specifying the building. When you know what it wants, then you look at how do deliver it.

Understood thanks for your input, we ironed this out in an earlier post , I didn't explain myself right and mick took it the same way as yourself. Building fabric is on the plans and in the shops , but as I was trying to point out the heating system is also important and it would be good to pre plan to save having to swing out of a kango later on or try bump up the roof to hold extra solar or knock a room in half to use as a hot press because the twiddly one on the plans is too small . Also when it comes to underfloor or geothermal heating, roughly doing the sums I can't see the savings.

beauf

I know very little about plumbing. But if it were me I want every part of it easy to access in case any part of it fails. Also be able to turn off parts of it, to work on one section, room, makes jobs much easier. I would avoid overly complex system for this reason. Its no good being 20% more efficient if it gets eaten up in expensive repairs and parts a few years down the line. Just that look at all the associated issues with whatever source you choose.