Orthodox and Armenian Clerics Fight at place of Christs birth

Onesimus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsT-iOiO4HM

Never in my entire life have I ever seen Priests beat each other with brooms and sticks. This is absolutely shocking and appalling. All have their jurisdictions in Jerusalem both Catholic Orthodox and protestant. But the Franciscans never ever fight and welcome people of all faiths in places that they have jurisdiction over as do protestants.

I find the eastern Orthodox peoples culture and clergy to be a very fierce one and they are to a lesser degree very Islamic and an angry fanatical sort.

I will be keeping them in my prayers as I'm a worse sinner than they but my my this fighting has got to end.

Has anyone been to the Holy Land and experienced this tension? If so please do tell us more about it.

The Quadratic Equation

Reminds me of the "immovable ladder", in The Church of the Holy Sepulchre, in Jerusalem. The Church is built on the site that is venerated as Golgotha, (the Hill of Calvary), where Jesus was crucified.

"The care over the church is shared by no less then six denominations. The primary custodians are the Greek Orthodox, Armenian Apostolic and Roman catholic church, with lesser duties shared by Coptic, Ethiopian and Syriac Orthodox churches. The whole edifice is carefully parceled into sections, some being commonly shared while others belonging strictly to a particular sect. A set of complicated rules governs the transit rights of the other groups through each particular section on any given day, and especially during the holidays. Some of the sections of the church however still remain hotly disputed to this day.

The famous immovable ladder is a bizarre outcome of this religious stubbornness pushed to extremes. Some time in the first half of the 19th century, someone has placed a ladder up against the wall of the church. No one is sure whom he was, or more importantly, to which sect he belonged. The ladder remains there to this date. No one dares touch it, lest they disturb the status quo, and provoke the wrath of others. The exact date when ladder was placed is not known but the first evidence of it comes from 1852."







The whole thing is like something out of Indiana Jones !

PDN

Yes, I saw this on Sky News yesterday. Sadly it's not the first time this kind of thing has happened.

For me, there is a real problem when Christian denominations become identified with nationality or ethnicity. It brings in a toxic measure of intolerance and bigotry that can only bring shame to the cause of Christ.

Onesimus

There should be an ecumenical gathering were all agree. It's such a horridness to see Men of God beating each other. It would be shameful enough to see Christian laity doing it but even MORE shameful to see clergy doing it.

Reminds me of the scuffles of Pharissees and Sadducees who were known to even murder one another. Just shameful stuff to see at Christmas time.

Benny_Cake

Pretty disgraceful - isn't it the case that a Muslim is always responsible for the keys to the Holy Sepulchre because the various churches don't trust each other to do it?

ISAW

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Pretty disgraceful - isn't it the case that a Muslim is always responsible for the keys to the Holy Sepulchre because the various churches don't trust each other to do it?

Yep. The Muslim family story is true. for centuries they have the key and hand it oput the doror in the morning.
And to answer the OP question about this,
I ghad a mate down there some time ago who actaully is a "serious" Roman Catholic in Opus Dei. He is very interested in the Orthodox and Byzentine traditions. He was in the Church
and a Roman Choir came in and started rehearsing while the copts or someone else were on the balcony singing something else. He saw a fransiscan pass and beckoned him over. Seys he " would the Choir not have some consideration for the choir on the balcony" The Fransiscan told him the all agreed to certain times and the balcony time was over . "Couldn't you leave them a while"? my pal asked.
"Leave them a while " says the Fransican monk. Look he says do you know how they got ther in the first place? Apparently JPII ( i think) came to Jerusalem and got a request from their Patriarch to have somewhere for his congregation to sit together during mass. the Pope asked they be given access to the church and they got the balcony. Then when the Mass ended they refused to leave. The Catholics had to make a deal offering them the balcony forecer. "All sorts of run ins happen round here about things like this" says the Fransiscan. "People have attacked even Franciscans. We have to protect ourselves" Whereupon he reaches into his robe and produces a truncheon

No kidding.

lmaopml

Yeah, it's not exactly a good advertisment of Christ. They should know better - all of them. It says a lot that the key is handed over. I'd say if Jesus visited he'd knock a few tables about in Bethlehem.

Keylem

Let him without sin cast the first broom!

Seriously, such disgraceful behaviour from Christians, and in the very place of the Birth of Christ!

Onesimus

yeah I even seen one Armenian Priest wack some Greek Orthodox Monk with an incense holder on a chain in the face back in 2008. And one Greek Orthodox Monk grabbing a lay man by the ears and pulling him around the place.

No arrests are made as they are all considered men of God by the local police. :rolleyes: If they actually made arrests then it would show them that there are consequences to their actions and they will be less likely to behave like that. It shouldnt be allowed to happen. Imagine I was there with my 9 year old son as a tourist and some mad Monks and priests decide to break out into a fight ? My son could be seriously harmed both physically and pshychologically. He'd be wondering why Double standards are being set. Such as he is being taught by the Gospel to be good and then he sees that fighting going on?

tutut is all I can say.

alex73

Orthodox and Armenian Clerics Fight at place of Christ's birth

Onesimus you know better than I do why they fight. I would not say they are Islamic it would be unfair.

Look it was not so long ago that Catholics had the same attitudes, much changed with VC II. I think the painful part is that the fight was not just between 2 Orthodox denominations but between the clerics, Men who have dedicated their lives to their faith. Christ would be sad to see this division.

JimiTime

alex73 wrote: »

Christ would be sad to see this division.

I reckon he would like it in a roundabout way. It shows the rest of us what a pile of nonsense all this ritualism, and priesty kind of stuff is in terms of Christ.

I remember a family member who was a Jehovahs Witness, who in going along with their doctrine, cut out a friend of his who had been disfellowshipped (Kicked out of the JW's). He did it reluctantly, but did it nonetheless. It played and played on his mind though. How unnatural it was etc, that it didn't feel right. It eventually led to asking more questions and examining things more, until he eventually seen the whole house of cards crumble and left the religion himself. So looking at a doctrine like the JW's have, that leave so many of us in disgust, can actually be a very positive thing. Just like the fighting in the OP, it can show people caught up in all the nonsense, that there's something not quite right, and encourage them to actually discover Christ rather than religiosity.

My two cent.

homer911

Keylem wrote: »

Let him without sin cast the first broom!

Seriously, such disgraceful behaviour from Christians, and in the very place of the Birth of Christ!

I'm pretty sure Christ was born in Bethlehem, not Golgotha

Sonics2k

Onesimus wrote: »

I find the eastern Orthodox peoples culture and clergy to be a very fierce one and they are to a lesser degree very Islamic and an angry fanatical sort.

I will be keeping them in my prayers as I'm a worse sinner than they but my my this fighting has got to end.

I read this first line, and lost a little respect for you Onesimus. Contrary to popular belief, most of Islam is made up very peaceful people, just like Christianity.

And frankly, despite our completely different opinions on Religious matters, you are not a worse person or sinner than they. Faith and belief are good things, what these people do is nothing short of childish and wrong.

Onesimus

Sonics2k wrote: »

I read this first line, and lost a little respect for you Onesimus. Contrary to popular belief, most of Islam is made up very peaceful people, just like Christianity.

And frankly, despite our completely different opinions on Religious matters, you are not a worse person or sinner than they. Faith and belief are good things, what these people do is nothing short of childish and wrong.

No i was refering to the fanatical islamic sort not Islam as a whole.

Benny_Cake

Onesimus wrote: »

No i was refering to the fanatical islamic sort not Islam as a whole.

It would seem like a lot of this is down to ethnicity rather than religious differences though - the doctrinal differences between these sects would be close to nonexistent I would have thought. I remember seeing footage of one of the Easter ceremonies at the Holy Sepulchre, Armenian and Greek worshippers were hurling abuse at each other, pretty horrible.

Fanny Cradock

It was a tactical master stroke securing the broom closet. I saw a lot of brushes being fired around the place.

Shameful stuff.

Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

Onesimus

benny. Yeah ethnicity could have something to do with it. But the east is predominantly Islamic and their religion plays a big part in their culture also. And most of the Orthodox clergy I meet are very Eastern in mind and extremely angry souls.

I find this in American Catholics whose country was founded by protestants. Many American Catholics I meet are actually very protestant in their culture and thought.

So thats something to think about I guess. I could be wrong. But thats my personal perspective.

ISAW

homer911 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure Christ was born in Bethlehem, not Golgotha

Yes we are discussing two churches here.
1. of the Nativity - Bethlehem
2 of the Holy Sepulcher - Jerusalem

darjeeling

Onesimus wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsT-iOiO4HM

Never in my entire life have I ever seen Priests beat each other with brooms and sticks. This is absolutely shocking and appalling. All have their jurisdictions in Jerusalem both Catholic Orthodox and protestant. But the Franciscans never ever fight and welcome people of all faiths in places that they have jurisdiction over as do protestants.

It's just not quidditch.