Paragraph formatting question

pickarooney

Is there any kind of convention as to when one should use the following:

1. new line and tab-indent
2. new line, blank line and tab indent
3. new line, blank line, no indent
4. double blank line
5. a blank line, asterisks, a blank line ?

I'd like to somehow distinguish between marking off a new paragraph in the same sequence of events and another event after the passing of a certain amount of time and also be able to describe parallel events in different locations, skipping back and forth between them.

PurpleBee

For describing parallel events I think maybe what Robert Coover did in the Babysitter is a good example, using a line break of three circles between each vignette

* * *

or the Wandering Rocks episode of Ulysses which is broken up like that.

pickarooney

bump

I need to make a start on re-formatting a few hundred pages of paragraphs but want to get this right before I start. It needs to work for both PDF and ePub formats and the way e-readers interpret these breaks can be a bit unpredictable.

I'm thinking now of the following:

1. logical breaks in the flow of a particular descriptive segment -> new line and indentation

2. some time passes within the same scene and same characters or action moves to another area in the same location (e.g. another room of a house) -> double new line and indentation. Maybe verbal indicator of change?

3. action in parallel with other characters in another location -> row of asterisks

4. speech in between desciptive passages -> new line and indentation? Does each line
of dialogue need a new indent? When someone speaks and then does something and
then speaks again, does this need new lines for each bit of dialogue?

EileenG

Don't get clever.

Generally, either a single line break or a row of asterisks for a scene shift or pov shift is enough. Anything else should be obvious from your text. If your characters move from the sitting room to the bedroom, it's either obvious, or you mention the change. Don't drop in blank lines all over the place.

Oh, and make your indents part of your formatting, not a tab. Tabs screw up formatting if you are submitting to publishers.

pickarooney

EileenG wrote: »

Oh, and make your indents part of your formatting, not a tab. Tabs screw up formatting if you are submitting to publishers.

How do you mean exactly? Is this a Word jobbie where you drag those rulers about? I have a phobia of that kind of thing.

EileenG

pickarooney wrote: »

How do you mean exactly? Is this a Word jobbie where you drag those rulers about? I have a phobia of that kind of thing.

Yes, you set up a template where you tell Word to indent your paragraph automatically, without you tabbing. If you go to Style, you should see how to do it. Or get someone to show you the first time, then you can do it after that.

pickarooney

I'll have a look. I can't find anything any more in Word 2010.

Das Kitty

pickarooney wrote: »

I'll have a look. I can't find anything any more in Word 2010.

In Word 2010 click on the "Page Layout" tab on the ribbon. The indent and line spacing options are there under paragraph, you click the little arrow thing in the corner to bring up the advanced paragraph options. Then it's the special indents you're looking for.

I've attached a picture of the 'little arrow thing in the corner' now. :pac:

pickarooney

So from the screen after the arrow, second section, "Indent" (some of these terms are not 100% accuate as Word is in French on this machine), I can select "First line" in the dropdown list marked "From first line" and set it to 1.25cm. When I click OK the first line has a paragraph indent that looks the way I want it.

Can I get it to apply this to the whole document or should I Ctrl-Shift-C, Ctrl-Shift-V to apply the paragraph style to each paragraph separately?

Das Kitty

I normally select all the text and then do it, which applies it to everything.

pickarooney

That would be a sensible approach!

I did the first chapter and it just doesn't look right to me.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/17byen4Igml4MlSsEZxzsio3bQw2TsfLYCNZMfEEFDCs/edit

Das Kitty

pickarooney wrote: »

That would be a sensible approach!

I did the first chapter and it just doesn't look right to me.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/17byen4Igml4MlSsEZxzsio3bQw2TsfLYCNZMfEEFDCs/edit

Have you played around with the level of indent?

You can also put a slightly larger space between paragraphs in Word, if it's any help? You use the Spacing 'before' or 'after' options in the same menu as you set the indent.

pickarooney

Yeah, but stupid Google docs just ignores all that. It's a pain in the face trying to do it in a way that looks right in different programs.

It looks marginally better in Word. I think that's a semi-intentional pun.

Das Kitty

pickarooney wrote: »

Yeah, but stupid Google docs just ignores all that. It's a pain in the face trying to do it in a way that looks right in different programs.

It looks marginally better in Word. I think that's a semi-intentional pun.

Yeah, it's a curse.

You should try getting a web page you're designing to look the same across all browsers if you think word processing formats are random. It's a right laugh.

But I agree, the Word version looks well.

Leafonthewind

The indents look good, but when your setting changes or you move forward in time, you don't need extra lines between paragraphs. So before 'Inside, outside, at the crest of the hill, an hour later' etc. I would remove those. The verbal cue is enough.

When someone speaks and then does something and then speaks again, does this need new lines for each bit of dialogue?

You don't need a new line of dialogue in these cases. What you did in that first paragraph after the asterisks is good.

pickarooney

Think I should be able to manage it from here. I'm going to abandon the idea of getting it to look right in all formats as it's simply not possible - even with two e-readers everything looks different, so...

EileenG

What are you trying to do? Format to submit to a publisher, or are you planning to self-publish?

pickarooney

Either or. The main thing is to ensure it's not confusing for the reader.

EileenG

For a publisher, don't worry too much about it. As long as the text is clean, without a lot of non-printing characters (like tab), they can format it whatever way they want.

For a reader, it depends on if they will read it as you wrote it, or if they'll have control of things like font size.

Whelpling

For a publisher:

1. Double-space the whole thing.
2. Do not indent the first paragraph of any chapter/section.
3. Indent all other paragraphs.
4. Any necessary visual time-breaks should be achieved with a triple asterisk, but 'necessary' is the key word here.
5. Where a triple asterisk or similar is used, do not indent the next line.
6. Leave WIDE margins for notes.
7. Include page numbers.
8. Preferably get your work perfect-bound, if sending a hard copy (adjust margins to accommodate binding space).

Double, triple and quadruple check your work for errors before sending. The more effort you put into presenting your work well for a publisher, the more you're displaying your investment and confidence in it, and giving the impression that you know what you're doing and are willing to research style guides and formatting further down the line. Doesn't matter if it's not true - they have to put up with you once they've committed to publish.

Double, triple and quadruple checking also goes for your covering letter. If there's an error in that, your MS will go straight through the shredder without so much as a peek.

NB: Always, always, always check the submission guidelines on the publisher/agent's website, and change your formatting accordingly from the aforementioned standard if necessary. Otherwise, be sure that any deviation from the standard adds something to your work and is absolutely beneficial to it, rather than gimmicky.

The Mad Hatter

In my experience, asterisks generally tend to go wherever you'd get a double line break at the end or beginning of a page.

Whelpling

That's generally true of a centered single asterisk.

The triple asterisk usually represents a jump in time, or to a different scene. I suppose much in the same way that a double line break would. Personally, I prefer to use triple asterisks in my manuscripts if jumping scene/time mid-chapter. Double line breaks just look messy to me. Call it OCD! But it's down to preference, really.