Record of arrest

okioffice84

My brother was arrested 2 weeks ago in a Dublin bar after a girl accused him of robbing her phone. Guards searched him at the station and found nothing and obviously released him after about 30 mins.
My question is will he always have the record of that arrest. It seems pretty unfair to be kind of tarred with a brush because of the accusation of a silly girl in a bar.

Also...he's thinking of moving to the States for work next summer...could this affect his visa application? Again it would be really unfair to have something like this affect his future.
I asked the Garda at the time (I was in the bar too) about the record and he basically told me 'sure you don't have to tell anyone about being arrested'

ANSI

okioffice84 wrote: »

'sure you don't have to tell anyone about being arrested'

gombeen cop. write to the super. see a solicitor and ask if he was falsely arrested

MagicSean

No criminal record. The only record will be of his time in custody as this has to be kept.

The Garda was right. If he doesn't tell anyone it won't affect him.

Delancey

ANSI wrote: »

gombeen cop. write to the super. see a solicitor and ask if he was falsely arrested

A bit harsh to call the Guard a gombeen. Based on what the OP said the arrest looks perfectly legal and appropriate.

ANSI

Delancey wrote: »

A bit harsh to call the Guard a gombeen. Based on what the OP said the arrest looks perfectly legal and appropriate.

why was he arrested if he did not do it? My uderstanding is he didn't. Gombeen comment relate dto the Irish "ah sure..."

MagicSean

ANSI wrote: »

why was he arrested if he did not do it? My uderstanding is he didn't. Gombeen comment relate dto the Irish "ah sure..."

He was arrested as part of the investigation i presume. That's how the Irish legal system works.

Turner

ANSI wrote: »

why was he arrested if he did not do it? My uderstanding is he didn't. Gombeen comment relate dto the Irish "ah sure..."

Gombeen post.

Actually, posts.

Zambia

MagicSean wrote: »

He was arrested as part of the investigation i presume. That's how the Irish legal system works.

How most legal systems work.

MyKeyG

MagicSean wrote: »

He was arrested as part of the investigation i presume. That's how the Irish legal system works.

In fairness guys he wasn't suspected of being in possession of heroine.

Would it be too much to expect the search to have been done outside the premises and put the matter to bed straight away or do the guards have too much free time on their hands in Dublin these days?

I've never heard of an arrest made in connection with something so trivial. Surely there's some cop on built into the legislation to avoid having to arrest every innocent individual accused by an intoxicated moran?

Zambia

Being in possession of heroin is a lesser crime than theft. Depending on the quantity.

The op said

My brother was arrested 2 weeks ago in a Dublin bar after a girl accused him of robbing her phone. Guards searched him at the station and found nothing and obviously released him after about 30 mins.
My question is will he always have the record of that arrest. It seems pretty unfair to be kind of tarred with a brush because of the accusation of a silly girl in a bar.

There is no mention she was drunk.

The fact is she reported a crime to the police. They investigated the matter by arresting and searching the accused. You can imagine it would be poor form to do this in the pub.

I see no cause for concern.

MyKeyG

Zambia wrote: »

Being in possession of heroin is a lesser crime than theft. Depending on the quantity.

Yes but he didn't commit theft, he was merely accused. Besides you get the point I'm trying to make but for arguments sake let's say the quantity in the hypothetical scenario was 5 kilos

There is no mention she was drunk.

Fair enough withdrawn.

The fact is she reported a crime to the police. They investigated the matter by arresting and searching the accused. You can imagine it would be poor form to do this in the pub.

I quite clearly stated the search could have taken place outside the premises.

My point is a discreet search outside the venue, a couple of questions to both parties and the issue is solved. OK the girl is still minus a phone but at least Joe Bloggs isn't the culprit. Instead he get's to suffer the indignation of being publicly arrested and brought to the station. Not only that but should the girl be unable to provide sufficient reason as to why she suspected the man in question she herself could well be charged with wasting Garda time and defamation. You can't just go around accusing people of doing this, that or the other willy nilly.

Zambia

MyKeyG wrote: »

OK the girl is still minus a phone but at least Joe Bloggs isn't the culprit. Instead he get's to suffer the indignation of being publicly arrested and brought to the station. Not only that but should the girl be unable to provide sufficient reason as to why she suspected the man in question she herself could well be charged with wasting Garda time and defamation. You can't just go around accusing people of doing this, that or the other willy nilly.

Without knowing the type of statement made its very hard to gauge what action should be taken as a result.

Chances are the station was not far and it was as prudent to do it there. Most search's are done with the persons dignity in mind. If it takes an extra 5 minutes to do it right at the station do it there. Crowds dont build and every patron entering the bar does not see it.

I would agree with you if you accuse someone of something you should be held accountable. However a flock of news stories of police charging witnesses who got it wrong would result in no witnesses.

MyKeyG

Zambia wrote: »

Without knowing the type of statement made its very hard to gauge what action should be taken as a result.

Exactly and in the same vein your statement:

Chances are the station was not far and it was as prudent to do it there.

is also supposition. You have no idea where the incident took place or how close the station was.

Most search's are done with the persons dignity in mind. If it takes an extra 5 minutes to do it right at the station do it there. Crowds dont build and every patron entering the bar does not see it.

Have you ever witnessed an arrest? The person is by law cuffed and lead by police. There's nothing dignified about that. Crowds do gather and patrons do see it including door staff

I would agree with you if you accuse someone of something you should be held accountable. However a flock of news stories of police charging witnesses who got it wrong would result in no witnesses.

No I'm sorry. A witness statement that's found to be flawed through no intent to deceive and an unfounded allegation are two completely different things. They are certainly not treated the same by Gardai.

At the end of the day I stick to my original point. A phone was stolen and the Gardai treated it like a major incident. God forbid they might be out catching real criminals instead of wasting time on an innocent accused. If I was the OP's brother I would have the name and number of every guard involved as well as the name of my accuser in order to bring charges against her.

Zambia

Ok one thing at a time then

MyKeyG wrote: »

Have you ever witnessed an arrest? The person is by law cuffed and lead by police.

One or two

What law states they have to handcuff people when arrested?

Please quote it

MyKeyG

Zambia wrote: »

Ok one thing at a time then


One or two

What law states they have to handcuff people when arrested?

Please quote it

I haven't got a quote. Now explain to me how that makes a difference to my overall point about undignified arrest. Cuffs or not, being led away by Gardai and put into a squad car is always a spectacle.

If you're going to split hairs to avoid addressing the substance of my arguments could you let me know sooner rather than later. I don't waste time with the obtuse.

Zambia

MyKeyG wrote: »

I haven't got a quote. Now explain to me how that makes a difference to my overall point about undignified arrest. Cuffs or not, being led away by Gardai and put into a squad car is always a spectacle.

Have you seen every single arrest by Garda, now you are assuming

If you're going to split hairs to avoid addressing the substance of my arguments could you let me know sooner rather than later. I don't waste time with the obtuse.

You got caught making unfounded claims in relation to cuffing please don't dismiss it by stating it was hair splitting.

The substance of your argument is that this person should not have been brought to a station. Without being there you cant make that call.

All I am doing is giving the cops that attended the benefit of the doubt. As legally from what people have posted here under Irish Law they appear to have done nothing outside their powers.

cursai

The person was arrested on suspicion of theft as identified by the injured party. Searched asked a few questions. Released pending further inquires. All legit and how investigations can be conducted. Seemed professional.
Handcuffs are used on a discretionarybasis but are advised. Only exceptions outside of advice are pregnant women, injured persons, the elderly and children but these too can be included if safety is an issue or possible concern.
There is no issue here and no conviction exists at the moment pending further investigation.
Also likely the Op's brother didn't tell the full story to him. Including how drunk or uncooperative he may have been.

MagicSean

There is no legal power to search someone for stolen items like there is for drugs or firearms. It is a major gap in the law imho. So the gardai have no choice but to arrest if they suspect someone of a theft.

Marcusm

MagicSean wrote: »

There is no legal power to search someone for stolen items like there is for drugs or firearms. It is a major gap in the law imho. So the gardai have no choice but to arrest if they suspect someone of a theft.

Is there more to the story? I would have thought that any sensible guard would have asked the putative suspect to voluntarily subject himself to a search as an alternative to the hassle of a formal arrest. Further, would a simple complaint without further corroboration have been sufficient grounds for an arrest?

MagicSean

Marcusm wrote: »

Is there more to the story? I would have thought that any sensible guard would have asked the putative suspect to voluntarily subject himself to a search as an alternative to the hassle of a formal arrest. Further, would a simple complaint without further corroboration have been sufficient grounds for an arrest?

In many cases of theft from the person the statement of the injured party would be the only evidence. It's not unusual for thieves to operate away from witnesses and cameras.

The Gardaí may very well have asked him first. Unfortunately, people who have been drinking a lot and are with their mates have a tendency to become wannabe solicitors when confronted with a situation like this. Some just become morons for no reason. I could tell you many a story about people who have been given a simple choice (leave the area or be arrested) and will choose not to leave the area but still be surprised when they are arrested.

cursai

Marcusm wrote: »

Is there more to the story? I would have thought that any sensible guard would have asked the putative suspect to voluntarily subject himself to a search as an alternative to the hassle of a formal arrest. Further, would a simple complaint without further corroboration have been sufficient grounds for an arrest?

True. Which forces the Gardai to abuse sec 23 mda and the power to search under the firearms act. Other wise he could have been just searched whilst in custody for the theft for the purposes of the custody record.

Turner

cursai wrote: »

True. Which forces the Gardai to abuse sec 23 mda and the power to search under the firearms act. Other wise he could have been just searched whilst in custody for the theft for the purposes of the custody record.

I thought Gardai in Dublin had the power to search for stolen property under the Dublin police act of 1842.

Only in the Dmr though.

Haven't time to look it up now to get the legislation.

MagicSean

Turner wrote: »

I thought Gardai in Dublin had the power to search for stolen property under the Dublin police act of 1842.

Only in the Dmr though.

Haven't time to look it up now to get the legislation.

I think that has been repealed

MyKeyG

All I am doing is giving the cops that attended the benefit of the doubt. As legally from what people have posted here under Irish Law they appear to have done nothing outside their powers.

I know what you're doing. I never said the Guards did anything outside their powers. But there's nothing wrong with Gardai using a small bit of cop on. How much time was wasted on this suspected phone theft while lads were getting their heads kicked in all over Dublin city?

You got caught making unfounded claims in relation to cuffing please don't dismiss it by stating it was hair splitting.

I'm entitled to dismiss whatever I like if I think my opposite number is being obtuse. I was pointing out that though I could not provide a source link it didn't invalidate my GENERAL point. You took one iffy element from an altogether sound argument knowing that you had no rebuttal for the rest.

Have you seen every single arrest by Garda, now you are assuming

I haven't seen every single arrest but I like to think I have cop on. You seem to think the Gardai removed the OP's brother from the premises without anybody noticing. Come on seriously what do you think happened? The Garda turned to him and said 'Right, to avoid embarrassment we'll go outside and you count to twenty, follow us out and it's off to the station. It had to be fairly noticeable if the OP himself was able to have a chat with the Guard. Nobody likes the personal as well as the public humiliation of an arrest.

The substance of your argument is that this person should not have been brought to a station. Without being there you cant make that call.

You made a fair few assumptions yourself on this thread so please don't claim you have the moral ground here. I never said he shouldn't have been brought. I used my brain and reasoned that given the overall circumstances (he was found without the phone and released) what possible reason did the guards have to arrest him? Only the OP can fill in that info and he seems to have scampered. There's no point you and I at each other over and back when as you said it's mere conjecture on both parts.

ANSI

Turner wrote: »

Gombeen post.

Actually, posts.

gombeen mod

cursai

Oooooh its on

Carawaystick

cursai wrote: »

Handcuffs are used on a discretionarybasis but are advised. Only exceptions outside of advice are pregnant women.

What reason is made for the discrimination of pregnant women? it's not as if they have a medical condition or are always obvious to outsiders, or their unborn children are likely to suffer inordinately from having their mothers wrists cuffed?

Heavily pregnant aye, 4 weeks pregnant,,,,?

re. the OP

I guess the gardaí are in a hard place, they can't search a person without arresting, (from this thread) so they have to arrest the person

( Is arresting a person on suspicion based solely on a drunken quare wan a crime of moral turpitude( I guess is the main issue))

MyKeyG

Carawaystick wrote: »

What reason is made for the discrimination of pregnant women? it's not as if they have a medical condition or are always obvious to outsiders, or their unborn children are likely to suffer inordinately from having their mothers wrists cuffed?

Heavily pregnant aye, 4 weeks pregnant,,,,?

re. the OP

I guess the gardaí are in a hard place, they can't search a person without arresting, (from this thread) so they have to arrest the person

( Is arresting a person on suspicion based solely on a drunken quare wan a crime of moral turpitude( I guess is the main issue))

The gaurds as far as I knew could ask the accused to submit voluntarily to a search, if he refuses then by all means arrest him.

The OP isn't being very informative so I suppose you could assume his brother (anyone still believe that btw?) turned into Jonny Coughran on the spot and gave the Guards no choice.

Zambia

MyKeyG wrote: »

I know what you're doing. I never said the Guards did anything outside their powers. But there's nothing wrong with Gardai using a small bit of cop on. How much time was wasted on this suspected phone theft while lads were getting their heads kicked in all over Dublin city?

You handle one job at a time, you dont do one job half assed because you have more on your plate. You can only solve one crime at a time.

MyKeyG wrote: »

I'm entitled to dismiss whatever I like if I think my opposite number is being obtuse. I was pointing out that though I could not provide a source link it didn't invalidate my GENERAL point.
You took one iffy element from an altogether sound argument knowing that you had no rebuttal for the rest.

It was not iffy it was wrong mate lets call a spade a spade here.

MyKeyG wrote: »

I haven't seen every single arrest but I like to think I have cop on. You seem to think the Gardai removed the OP's brother from the premises without anybody noticing. Come on seriously what do you think happened? The Garda turned to him and said 'Right, to avoid embarrassment we'll go outside and you count to twenty, follow us out and it's off to the station. It had to be fairly noticeable if the OP himself was able to have a chat with the Guard. Nobody likes the personal as well as the public humiliation of an arrest.

I never said the OPs brother was not humiliated, to be honest it makes no difference if he was. The fact remains the members did the job by the book from what I can see.

MyKeyG wrote: »

I used my brain and reasoned that given the overall circumstances (he was found without the phone and released) what possible reason did the guards have to arrest him? Only the OP can fill in that info and he seems to have scampered. There's no point you and I at each other over and back when as you said it's mere conjecture on both parts.

All I am saying is you dont know all the overall circumstances yet you keep down this line that the guy should not be arrested.

Lets face it for all we know the OP's brother could be guilty and not telling him.

MyKeyG

Zambia wrote: »

It was not iffy it was wrong mate lets call a spade a spade here.

Oh FFS. How childish can one person be? OK I was wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong times a thousand about it being the law to cuff someone!!! There, you happy? Now can we have a grown up debate?
My point is it that whether cuffing is the law or not, and whether I claimed it erroneously, it didn't take from the overall argument I was making about the humiliation of arrest. You used a single incorrect element I made to knock the entire argument because you had no counter argument.

No we don't know the facts but in a general situation have Gardai and I believe should whenever possible try to resolve the issue on the spot considering police resources are valuable.

In all honestly the OP doesn't seem to give a rats backside about this and I'm personally inclined to follow him out the door.

Zambia

No need to overreact anyway

MyKeyG wrote: »

No we don't know the facts but in a general situation have Gardai and I believe should whenever possible try to resolve the issue on the spot considering police resources are valuable.

In this case it probably was not possible.

Its the states job to provide enough police not the police officers job to cut corners so the lack of resources less noticeable.

MyKeyG

Zambia wrote: »

No need to overreact anyway


In this case it probably was not possible.

Its the states job to provide enough police not the police officers job to cut corners so the lack of resources less noticeable.

I never said anything about cutting corners. Gardai have the discretion to handle certain matters 'roadside'.

I can only go on what the OP said which is all anyone can do regarding any thread. What he said was the guards released his brother without charge, having searched him, after half an hour. I simply find it hard to believe that anything was done at the station that couldn't have been done on site. The whole episode at face value strikes me as a complete waste of time.

Yes he might have turned into Matlock on the spot but any serious abuse would not have seen him released after half an hour so how serious can his potential intoxicated tirade have been? Like I said I can only balance what the OP said with common sense.

Zambia

Some time ago I was in a pub with a mate drinking he was an off duty garda.

I was almost sure I saw a girl take a purse out of a bag and leave the pub I told him to go and wait by the pub exit and I would check with the bag owner.

She confirmed her purse was gone I nodded and my mate ran out and grabbed her.

Now when we grabbed her she had no purse. The squad car arrived she had no purse.

She was arrested from the time we grabbed her. A she was put in the squad car one off the members saw the purse under a car by the pub exit where she must have dropped it.

The fact is although she was searched and did not have the purse she was still going to be arrested for the theft of it. Even if my mate was not there it would have been prudent of the attending members to take her and process her on my say so.