how would this work out?

Dunedin

I sold a few springers in Aug/sept time at home (private sale). All of them were scanned in calf. One of them now turns out that she is not in calf.

The man rang me back to advise of this. Now, there was no problem. I told him I would take back the heifer but as she is a good strong heifer (coming 3 years old), he was happy to keep her. He was really only ringing to confirm if I had scanned them and was happy to accept my word that I had so he just kept the heifer.

I assume it would sold as seen but if he really wanted to make an issue of it, what should be the way to handle it?

anyone any experience of this type of thing?

reilig

First of all, he has all he rights in this.

You sold the animal to him and it was not as you described. He must be a nice man if he's happy to keep her without compensation. Although she may have gone up in value since you sold her so neither of you would lose if you had to take her back. If he was looking for compensation, you would have to give him Eur 1.50 to Eur 2 per day for feed, dose, transport and vet. That's the going rate. Thank god I haven't had one in a long time.

Did you get certs from your scanning man? If so, you would be able to claim compensation from him.

Dunedin wrote: »

I sold a few springers in Aug/sept time at home (private sale). All of them were scanned in calf. One of them now turns out that she is not in calf.

The man rang me back to advise of this. Now, there was no problem. I told him I would take back the heifer but as she is a good strong heifer (coming 3 years old), he was happy to keep her. He was really only ringing to confirm if I had scanned them and was happy to accept my word that I had so he just kept the heifer.

I assume it would sold as seen but if he really wanted to make an issue of it, what should be the way to handle it?

anyone any experience of this type of thing?

Dunedin

reilig wrote: »

First of all, he has all he rights in this.

You sold the animal to him and it was not as you described. He must be a nice man if he's happy to keep her without compensation. Although she may have gone up in value since you sold her so neither of you would lose if you had to take her back. If he was looking for compensation, you would have to give him Eur 1.50 to Eur 2 per day for feed, dose, transport and vet. That's the going rate. Thank god I haven't had one in a long time.

Did you get certs from your scanning man? If so, you would be able to claim compensation from him.

didn't get certs from scanning but then I never asked for them either but I will in future.

The heifer would probably have gone up a bit in value. either way, i would have taken the heifer back without hastle as this country too small to mess lads about.

whelan1

i think its a dodgy one, she might have been in calf when sold and could have thrown the calf, the fact you had scanned them would work in your favour... where they scanned long before you sold them and how long where they in calf? edited to say if he is happy to keep her and " was just letting you know, i dont see any problem"

bbam

I appreciate he has this protection for cattle bought in the mart.
Does he really have this protection through a private sale?
Would it not be hard to get compensation, I presume through small claims court?

reilig wrote: »

First of all, he has all he rights in this.

You sold the animal to him and it was not as you described. He must be a nice man if he's happy to keep her without compensation. Although she may have gone up in value since you sold her so neither of you would lose if you had to take her back. If he was looking for compensation, you would have to give him Eur 1.50 to Eur 2 per day for feed, dose, transport and vet. That's the going rate. Thank god I haven't had one in a long time.

Did you get certs from your scanning man? If so, you would be able to claim compensation from him.

reilig

bbam wrote: »

I appreciate he has this protection for cattle bought in the mart.
Does he really have this protection through a private sale?
Would it not be hard to get compensation, I presume through small claims court?

What protection does he have by buying through the mart?

Who's to say that the heifer was in calf when he bought her?

Who's to say that the scanning man didn't make a mistake?

The seller claims that he had her scanned, but has no record or proof.

Who's to say that she didn't throw the calf with the new owner?

(No offence Dunedin - I'm just pointing out all the possibilities).

If it went to court, and the seller had no proof that she was in calf, would he win or lose?

Its important to get a scanning cert for any animal that you are selling. Costs nothing extra, and any scanning man or woman worth their salt will have them available.

My scanning man was telling me that he was asked by a client a few weeks ago to go to court to give evidence that he scanned a heifer in calf. He scanned 30 heifers that day, was asked for no certs, read or recorded no numbers, how could he back the guy up?

As Whelan said, if he's happy and was just letting you know, there's no problem.

whelan1

bbam wrote: »

I appreciate he has this protection for cattle bought in the mart.
Does he really have this protection through a private sale?
Would it not be hard to get compensation, I presume through small claims court?

currently going through courts over cattle i bought 2 years ago, you have to be in it for the long haul, cant see a claim for 1 animal making it to court tbh, unlessthe animal was very valuable... its alot of hassle...

greysides

I don't know the legals in's and out's but I think the heifer should be tried in court. After all, it's quite possible she was in-calf at scanning and has subsequently lost the calf. It's all perfectly normal, there are losses at every stage of gestation. It only becomes a veterinary issue if the losses exceed normal.
So there may well be no human to fault so ............... hang the heifer!

bbam

reilig wrote: »

What protection does he have by buying through the mart?

Protection may be an exaggeration but the mart can insist you take the animal back or sell no more of your stock.

Two years ago I sold a heifer as not in calf, two weeks later contacted by mart that he had a query about her being in calf and I was told the above. When he scanned her she was empty so it didn't go any further. Its our local mart so I would have taken her back.

Muckit

Dunedin wrote: »

I sold a few springers in Aug/sept time at home (private sale). All of them were scanned in calf. One of them now turns out that she is not in calf.

Sure if she was 'springing' she definitely was in calf

JohnBoy

surely unless the buyer scans directly after coming home from the mart and finds the heifer not be to in calf then they can have no comeback?

the heifer could abort in the corner of a field that night and have the foetus taken by a fox and no one would ever know.

surely buying in an calf heifer is buying a heifer and the chance of a calf with her, as opposed to a heifer and the guarantee of a calf.


it's a different situation to selling a heifer as a being "not in calf" for fattening.


Just my opinion but I dont see how any judge could find in favour of the buyer.

reilig

Why would you scan a heifer directly after bringing her home from the mart if the owner tells you that she has been scanned in calf? Most people will only have a scanner on the farm once or twice a year.

As the buyer in this case is not claiming, there is no way of knowing how it would work out.

As I detailed above, my scanner man was asked to act as a witness that a heifer that he scanned was in calf. He could not do so as there was no record kept. AFAIK the original owner of the heifer took her back and paid compensation based on legal advice.

The heifer was scanned in calf at 3 months. At 5 months the owner noticed her in heat. She had been housed all the time and never showed signs of throwing the calf. The buyer was at a loss and was entitiled to be compensated. If I was the buyer, I would expect compensation. If I was the seller, I'd cut my losses and pay up.

What would anyone else here do?

Reputation is valuable, as are cattle at the moment.

JohnBoy wrote: »

surely unless the buyer scans directly after coming home from the mart and finds the heifer not be to in calf then they can have no comeback?

the heifer could abort in the corner of a field that night and have the foetus taken by a fox and no one would ever know.

surely buying in an calf heifer is buying a heifer and the chance of a calf with her, as opposed to a heifer and the guarantee of a calf.


it's a different situation to selling a heifer as a being "not in calf" for fattening.


Just my opinion but I dont see how any judge could find in favour of the buyer.

JohnBoy

My point is that unless the buyer can prove the heifer was not in calf on the day it was purchased then I dont see how the seller can be held responsible for what might have happened since then.

Or in other words.......

JohnBoy wrote: »

surely buying in an calf heifer is buying a heifer and the chance of a calf with her, as opposed to a heifer and the guarantee of a calf.

Am I right or wrong on this?

reilig wrote: »

Reputation is valuable

That's a business decision though as opposed to a legal/rights one. Long term it's often better to take a loss in such a situation if it means you'll keep a customer.

5live

I sold a cull cow about 10 years ago. She was scanned in calf about 10 days before and declared so in the mart in november, due to calve start of march. In may, i got a call from a guy on my unlisted phone number looking for compensation as the cow didnt calve. I asked how he got my number and he said the mart gave it to him despite being told it was private and not to give it out to anyone. I said i would ring him back the following morning and to give me his number and he said no that it was unlisted and he didnt want anyone to have it and he would ring me back the following day. so i said fine and hung up and rang my vet.

Turns out the same lad had made a small profitable sideline for himself buying incalf cows and looking for compo if the cow slipped a calf or the calf died calving and used get 4 or 5 of my vets clients every year.

So i rang the mart where i was a shareholder and used sell all my stock and asked for the guys number but they couldnt give it out because he didnt want it given out. So why had they given out mine so, i asked? No reply:rolleyes:

Because i declared when she was to calve, i had protected my ass as he had waited too long after she was due before contacting the mart. My vet reckons she lost the calf while calving and waited until she had healed up before making a fuss.

I havent sent an animal to that mart since.

If you are going to sell an animal as in calf, ALWAYS get a cert. ALWAYS. You were lucky the guy didnt make a fuss as at 1.50 a day for feed, as reilig said, it can mount up and you can have all sorts of diseases coming in with a return

Figerty

I heard the opposite thing happened a seller in East Clare. I can't be sure of the truth of it. But a heifer sold NOT in calf was supposed to have calved later on.

A phone call from a 'farmer' in the midlands looking for compensation for the calved heifer. The word had got around that this was going on an a chat with a solicitor directed the seller to ask for the a blood test of the calf and mother to prove via DNA test that the heifer had actually calved..

Of course the buyer said the calf had been sold on and this wasn't possible. End of phone call and end of problem.

blue5000

Interesting problem alright. Slightly off thread but I've heard of a feedlot owner looking for compo for heifers that he buys in mart declared not in calf on day of sale, but subsequently 'proving' in calf. Because it's a feedlot the heifer cannot be returned to the seller. No one really knows if they were ever in calf at all.

redzerologhlen

blue5000 wrote: »

Interesting problem alright. Slightly off thread but I've heard of a feedlot owner looking for compo for heifers that he buys in mart declared not in calf on day of sale, but subsequently 'proving' in calf. Because it's a feedlot the heifer cannot be returned to the seller. No one really knows if they were ever in calf at all.

Ya, I would say I heard about the same lad. I also heard of someone that went up to see the heifer after he started looking for compo but he wasnt let inside the yard. Dont know a name but he was pointed out to me in Ennis one day I was selling heifers, One of the friends warned me not to let any of them fall to him!!

whelan1

local farmer was buying heifers in our local mart , these where all being sold as maidens, amazingly alot of people got calls that the animals where incalf, local mart was well peeved, had strong words with him apparently he was switching tags, the last straw forme was when he rang a local widow woman to say her heifers where in calf, there was no way they where in calf when she sold them and she gave him money , total waster......... big sign up in mart that animals are sold as seen/described on the day and any descrepencies remain with the owner , i dont understand that , is that the new owner or the previous owner?

Bitten & Hisses

reilig wrote: »

If he was looking for compensation, you would have to give him Eur 1.50 to Eur 2 per day for feed, dose, transport and vet. That's the going rate.

This "money for feeding" is a contentious issue and one which can be seen as a complete scam depending on the circumstances. Thankfully, I haven't one of these either at present, but how is this figure arrived at? If the buyer had kept the animal for a sufficiently long time, couldn't you be looking at paying out a fair chunk of the animal's value just to get out of the problem?
When selling pedigree cattle (Limousin society sales at least, but I think the rules are from the Pedigree Cattle Breeders Council of Ireland), compensation is limited to 10% of the hammer price, which is a much fairer way of doing business.

Figerty

http://www.dnaireland.ie/veterinary.html

This would sort out the chancers.....