N29. What an Oddity

Sponge Bob

The N29 is the Waterford Port Road. It is an extremely odd National Road

1. It is not connected to the National Road network, one approaches it over the R680 here. That portion of the R680 should be designated N29...being of a higher quality than most of the National Road network as it now is and all.

2. Eventually one reaches the Slieverue Roundabout and the N29 isolate starts there.

3. The speed limit is seemingly 80kph along the entire southbound road despite it being of UNIFORMLY high quality. It does have a number of junctions but traffic is low and they are good quality. The speed drops from 80kph to 50kph at some of these junctions. Northbound is 100kph in parts. I would point out that Southbound is a continous incline downwards and with a lot of trucks a uniform 80kph may be the best idea. Northbound is climbing all the way.

4. It is the Only National road that ends on a speed bump .

Jayuu

A bit of legacy really because until the Waterford Bypass was completed it did connect directly to the N25. I never understood why it had to be classed as an N route in any case.

I guess the only reason the little bit of R680 between the two roundabouts hasn't been reclassified to the N29 is because it probably would cause confusion for signposting for westbound traffic from New Ross. As you'd come to the Luffany Roundabout you'd have the N25 and N29 routes off the roundabout both of which would have to be signposted for Waterford.

If you then took the N29 expecting it to go the whole way to Waterford you'd be a bit put out when 100 yards down the road you got downgraded to the R680 for Waterford with the N29 continuing to Belview Port.

mackerski

Sponge Bob wrote: »

1. It is not connected to the National Road network, one approaches it over the R680 here. That portion of the R680 should be designated N29...being of a higher quality than most of the National Road network as it now is and all.

It is connected to the national road network as shown here

I surveyed this road myself.

Victor

Designation as National Roads (not "routes") isn't just about a convenient number from A to B, it is also about the legal status of the road - NRA and DoT and responsible for 100% of funding for capital and maintenance of national roads. Providing a road to a main port more sensibly falls under the remit of the state and a council.

Have a look at Roads Act 1993 (Classification of National Roads) Order 2006 and Roads Act 1993 (Classification of Regional Roads) Order 2006 which have only been superseded by the more recent motorway orders.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2006/en/si/0187.html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2006/en/si/0188.html

dubhthach

What this reminds me of is the old Waterford and Tramore (W&T) railway which remain the only rail line (carrying passenger service) never to be connected to rest of the network up until it's closure in early 60's

Sponge Bob

Well if the northern of the 2 Roundabouts ...that where the bypass ends...is within the Townland of Kilmurry and if the southern of the 2 roundabouts is ALSO with the townloand of Kilmurry...then perhaps it would remain duly designated.

However some of the southern roundabout along with ALL the Northern Roundabout are located in the Townland of Rathpatrick not that of Kilmurry.


Consequently I maintain my claim that the N29 is an Isolate.

Have a map, the Yellow fills are the legally OK ones per the 2006 order.



Legal Bit ( thanks Victor)

http://www.dttas.ie/upload/general/11931-SI_187_OF_2006-0.PDF

N29 Belview Port Access, County Kilkenny
Between its junction with N25 at Kilmurry and its terminal point at the port at Belview via Gorteens all in the county of Kilkenny.

mackerski

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Well if the northern of the 2 Roundabouts ...that where the bypass ends...is within the Townland of Kilmurry and if the southern of the 2 roundabouts is ALSO with the townloand of Kilmurry...then perhaps it would remain duly designated.

However some of the southern roundabout along with ALL the Northern Roundabout are located in the Townland of Rathpatrick not that of Kilmurry.


Consequently I maintain my claim that the N29 is an Isolate.

It's an amusing line of reasoning, but doesn't fly. The 2006 order, being as it is based on the older alignments, refers to a terminal point at a named location _and_ connecting to a named road, the N25. So if you want to invoke the 2006 SI you can't claim that the road doesn't hit the N25.

It's a while since I surveyed the N29, but it was on the new alignment and I came away very happy that the maps linked above reflects the signs on the ground (it should be mentioned that I tend to distrust signs in Ireland), but it also fits well with the principle that you don't have small gaps between one national road and another.

One suspects that a new SI defining the new alignment of the N29 either exists or will emerge at some point once we've fixed the economy and a few other important bits and pieces. In the meantime, the local council can probably clarify who has to pay for repairs to the section in question.

Sponge Bob

mackerski wrote: »

It's an amusing line of reasoning, but doesn't fly. The 2006 order, being as it is based on the older alignments, refers to a terminal point at a named location _and_ connecting to a named road, the N25. So if you want to invoke the 2006 SI you can't claim that the road doesn't hit the N25.

It was indeed correct in 2006 and would remain correct despite administrative torpor were the northern roundabout built in Kilmurry ...and it wasn't. It is in Rathpatrick!

Can you find an amendment to the Order anywhere...either under the 1993 Act or some post 2006 enactment ???

Maybe 'your' new N29 belongs to the contractor who built it until the last retention payment is released or something Mackerski.

mackerski

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Can you find an amendment to the Order anywhere...either under the 1993 Act or some post 2006 enactment ???

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you - the 2006 order claims both that the N29 joins the N25 and that it does so in a specific townland. One of those assertions at least cannot be true today. Which one do you think is false?

Sponge Bob

Jeez I published the map. The Purple line N-S across the roundabout is a Townland Boundary The section between the 2 roundabouts including the entire northern roundabout and parts of the southern roundabout are NOT IN THE TOWNLAND OF KILMURRY.

.......and the 2006 order was by and large a restatement of the original 1994 order.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/si/0209.html

There has been no order since 2006 under the powers granted the minister in the 1993 act. Maybe these powers were assigned elsewhere 2006-2011...if so where and was an order made ????

Unless you can prove there was a valid order I maintain my claim that the N29 is an Isolate and (worse) that OSM is WRONG

mackerski

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Unless you can prove there was a valid order I maintain my claim that the N29 is an Isolate and (worse) that OSM is WRONG

Then I'll repeat my question - the 2006 order claims that the N29 joins the N25. You claim that it does not, but you seem, simultaneously, to claim that the order is correct.

Help me understand this...

Sponge Bob

I claimed no such thing...you did. Now read what I said carefully without skipping anything.

The feckin roundabouts were built after 2006....and in a DIFFERENT TOWNLAND.

Victor

The reality is that the statutory orders are profoundly vague, except in some urban areas. I'm sure, if I was so bothered (I'm so inclined, but not so bothered) one could easily find hundreds of locations where the routes are ambiguous.

The reality, I suspect is that legally, both the old and new roads are the N25 and who knows what the Slieveroe Bypass is officially. When was that built?

EDIT:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2006/en/si/0187.html

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS
S.I. No. 187 of 2006
ROADS ACT 1993 (CLASSIFICATION OF NATIONAL ROADS) ORDER 2006

2. Each public road mentioned by number beside the letter N in column (1) opposite a description of the road in column (2), of Schedule 1 is classified as a national road and is a national primary road.

4. Each proposed public road mentioned in column (1) opposite a description of the road in column (2), of Schedule 3 is classified as a national road.

---

SCHEDULE 1
Regulation 2
NATIONAL PRIMARY ROADS

N25
Cork - Rosslare, County Wexford

Between its junction with N22 at Curraheen in the county of Cork and its terminal point at Ballygillane Lower Rosslare Harbour in the county of Wexford via Ballinaspig More, Ardarostig and South Ring Road in the county of Cork: South Ring Road in the city of Cork: South Ring Road and Monfieldstown in the county of Cork: Ballinure in city of Cork: Jack Lynch Tunnel at the boundary between the city of Cork and the county of Cork: Dunkettle Intake, Inchera, Courtstown, Harpers Island, Tullagreen, Carrigtwohill Bypass, Oatencake, Midleton Bypass, Park South, Churchtown, Castlemartyr, Killeagh, Ballyvergan, Clashadunna East and Muckridge in the county of Cork: Rincrew, Youghal Bridge, Kinsalebeg, Pilltown Cross, Clery's Cross, Grange, Kiely's Cross and Killongford in the county of Waterford: Clogherane, Kilrush, Shandon Bridge and Abbeyside in the town of Dungarvan: Old Pike Bridge, Lemybrien, Ahanaglogh, Percy Kirwan Bridge, Carrignanonshagh, Carroll's Cross, Ballyduff, The Sweep, Bawnfune and Butlerstown North in the county of Waterford: Cork Road, Manor Street, Parnell Street, The Mall, Parade, Custom House Quay, Coal Quay, Meagher's Quay, Merchant's Quay, Brother Ignatius Rice Bridge, Dock Road, Fountain Street and Ross Road in the city of Waterford: Kilmurry, Carriganurra, Ballynaraha and Ballyverneen in the county of Kilkenny: Waterford Road, O'Hanrahan Bridge, Quay and Marshmeadows in the town of New Ross: Oaklands, Portersland, Ballynabola, Scullaboge, Carrowreagh, Harristown Little, Ballyhit, Ballindinas, Conard Great, Blackhorse, Ballykilliane, Ballybrennan Big, Tagoat and Kilrane in the county of Wexford.

---

SCHEDULE 3
Regulation 4
PROPOSED NATIONAL ROADS

Waterford Area
City Bypass

- between N25 west of Kilmeaden (in the vicinity of the townland of Ballyduff East) in the county of Waterford and the N25 Northeast of Sleiverue (in the vicinity of the townland of Luffany) in the county of Kilkenny bypassing Waterford City and incorporating links to the N24 north of Waterford City (in the vicinity of the townland of Granny), to the N9 north of Waterford City (in the vicinity of the townland of Dunkitt) and to the N29 east of Waterford City (in the vicinity of the townland of Kilmurry)

Based on the above, what you have been calling the N25 (the big dual carriageway across south Kilkenny) has no number and is actually called

"Waterford Area
City Bypass"

mackerski

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I claimed no such thing...you did. Now read what I said carefully without skipping anything.

The feckin roundabouts were built after 2006....and in a DIFFERENT TOWNLAND.

Indeed they were. Perhaps it's more useful to ask why you think the N29 is isolated.

BTW, you'll see that OSM doesn't agree that the R680 goes anywhere near this location, and the relevant (2006) SI doesn't either. R711 doesn't feature in the 2006 SI, which seem fair considering it appears to be the old N25.

Edit: I just noticed that the alleged gap in the N29 used to be part of the N25. If we are to consider that that piece of road is no longer a national road, it would presumably have to have been handed off to the council, which seems an odd thing to do given that it is functionally and, IIRC, according to signs, a part of the realigned N29.

Sponge Bob

mackerski wrote: »

I
Edit: I just noticed that the alleged gap in the N29 used to be part of the N25. If we are to consider that that piece of road is no longer a national road, it would presumably have to have been handed off to the council, which seems an odd thing to do given that it is functionally and, IIRC, according to signs, a part of the realigned N29.

Emmmm it is a new road parallel to the old N25 ....and it is not the N29 in any legal sense that I can find.

Roads must be designated in a very specific way and the dual carriageway north of the southern roundabout of the pair appears to be .....undesignated in the legal sense.

L1011

Sponge, you're just being deliberately difficult here.

Any N roads which terminated/began on another N road that "moved" during the recent few years of network changes just got lenghtened to expand to where the road moved to. You know this as well as I do.

By your definition, the N77 ends in Durrow village, nowhere near any other N road. Everyone else accepts it extends along the former N8 to the M7.

Sponge Bob

The N62 began at a crossroads east of Athlone but is nowadays signposted at the Athlone East exit and appears to follow approx 2km of the old N6 ( either side of Kilmartins roundabout)

The M6 and junction were opened in 2006. Amazingly the length of the N62 in County Westmeath remained Absolutely Constant at 6km 909 m between 2005 and 2007 ( published mid 2008) ...now why is that ???

It did change in 2009 to a 'to be expected' 8.9 km and.....**** me if it didnt change back again in 2010 ( published 2011) when it shrank back to 6km and 944m from 8.9km

I put it to you sir that SOMEBODY NOTICED !!!!!

However the N62 is connected elsewhere to the National Road network and is therefore not an isolate. But I believe the same problem applies to the new N62 and the new N29. They are not correctly designated.

Rather than attack me continously on the matter I suggest you find the legal redesignation you all believe has occured and linkee poos in here. Thanks.

Victor

MYOB wrote: »

Sponge, you're just being deliberately difficult here.

No, the powers that be are being lazy.

I've edited my last post - my connection was being buggy last night.

dubhthach

Victor wrote: »

No, the powers that be are being lazy.

I've edited my last post - my connection was being buggy last night.

I see the Ordance Survey page is down so I can't see how they have route designated. However Kilkenny County Council regard the "old section" of N25 as now been the N29, this can be seen from Google Streetmap of sign showing the upcoming roundabout and available routes etc.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Kilmurry,+County+Kilkenny,+Ireland&hl=en&ll=52.290357,-7.069144&spn=0.003859,0.019505&sll=52.287771,-7.063179&sspn=0.016984,0.03901&vpsrc=6&geocode=FUupHQMdyjuU_w&hnear=Kilmurry,+County+Kilkenny,+Ireland&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=52.290351,-7.069154&panoid=oibZuAWM3ginltBlY9bLFA&cbp=11,61.28,,0,-13.09

The relevant legal designation that I can see on Transport.ie site says:

N29 Belview Port Access, County Kilkenny
Between its junction with N25 at Kilmurry and its terminal point at the port at Belview via Gorteens all in the county of Kilkenny.

http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/7616-0.pdf

Obviously it's ambigous given the new road, however as MYOB points out the same can be said about the N77 at Durrow.

Sponge Bob

dubhthach wrote: »

as MYOB points out the same can be said about the N77 at Durrow.

You forgot about both the N66 and N65 near and north of Loughrea and the N66 extension thru Gort! The N66 could also be an orphan isolate !

Victor

Sponge Bob wrote: »

You forgot about both the N66 and N65 near and north of Loughrea and the N66 extension thru Gort! The N66 could also be an orphan isolate !

But they are still connected to the N6 at Loughrea!

Sponge Bob

Ah well maybe not. In 2007 the Roads Act 2007 was passed Victor. This amended section 10 of the Roads Act 1993 thus. I bolded the new bit.

1993 Act.

10.—(1) (a) The Minister may by order classify any existing public road or any proposed public road as a national road.


(b) The Minister may by order classify any existing public road or any proposed public road as a regional road.


(c) A public road, other than a national road or a regional road, shall be a local road.


(d) Where a public road has been classified as a national road or a regional road under this subsection and where that road has been realigned or a by-pass has been constructed on it, such realignment or by-pass shall, unless otherwise provided by order of the Minister under this subsection, be a national road or a regional road, as the case may be, and that section of the existing road which remains following the realignment or the construction of the by-pass shall be a local road.


(2) (a) The Minister may make regulations—


(i) prescribing classes of public roads in addition to or in substitution for the classes referred to in subsection (1), and


(ii) making provision for the assignment of responsibility for the maintenance and construction of such classes of public roads and for the adaptation for that purpose of any of the provisions of section 13


(b) Regulations under this subsection may provide either generally or in a particular case that a reference in any enactment (including this Act) or instrument to a national road, a regional road or a local road is to be construed as a reference to a public road of a class prescribed in such regulations.


(3) (a) The Minister (in the case of national roads and regional roads) and a road authority (in the case of local roads) may by order—


(i) designate particular roads for particular purposes,


(ii) divide a particular class of roads into subclasses.


(b) Where the Authority stands established under section 16 the Minister shall consult with it before classifying a public road or a proposed public road as a national road under subsection (1) (a) or before making an order under paragraph (a) of this subsection relating to a national road.


(4) (a) The Minister shall assign a number or other identifying mark to each national road and regional road.


(b) A road authority shall assign a number or other identifying mark to each local road in respect of which it has responsibility.


(5) (a) A road authority shall keep a schedule and map of all public roads in respect of which it has responsibility.


(b) A road authority shall prepare the schedule and map as soon as practicable after the commencement of this section and shall take all reasonable measures to keep the schedule and map up to date.


(c) The schedule and map shall be kept at the offices of the road authority and shall be available for inspection during office hours.


(d) The schedule and map may be kept otherwise than in a legible form provided that the information contained therein is capable of being reproduced in a legible form.


(e) Articles 85, 86 and 87 of the Public Bodies Order, 1946 are hereby revoked.


(6) A road authority shall, at the request of the Minister and in such manner as may be specified by him, carry out an inventory of all public roads, or of any class or subclass of public road, in respect of which it has responsibility

After 2007 the powers read.

10.—(1) (a) The Minister may by order classify any existing public road or any proposed public road as a national road.


(b) The Minister may by order classify any existing public road or any proposed public road as a regional road.


(c) A public road, other than a national road or a regional road, shall be a local road.


(d) Where a public road has been classified as a national road or a regional road under this subsection and where that road has been realigned or a by-pass has been constructed on it, such realignment or by-pass shall, unless otherwise provided by order of the Minister under this subsection, be a national road or a regional road, as the case may be, and that section of the existing road which remains following the realignment or the construction of the by-pass shall be a local road.

(e) Where a new section or a replacement section of a national or regional road is proposed or has been provided, the new or replacement section is, unless provided by order of the Minister under this subsection, a national or regional road, as the case may be. Any section of the existing road which remains following the construction of the new or replacement section becomes a local road.


(2) (a) The Minister may make regulations—


(i) prescribing classes of public roads in addition to or in substitution for the classes referred to in subsection (1), and


(ii) making provision for the assignment of responsibility for the maintenance and construction of such classes of public roads and for the adaptation for that purpose of any of the provisions of section 13


(b) Regulations under this subsection may provide either generally or in a particular case that a reference in any enactment (including this Act) or instrument to a national road, a regional road or a local road is to be construed as a reference to a public road of a class prescribed in such regulations.


(3) (a) The Minister (in the case of national roads and regional roads) and a road authority (in the case of local roads) may by order—


(i) designate particular roads for particular purposes,


(ii) divide a particular class of roads into subclasses.


(b) Where the Authority stands established under section 16 the Minister shall consult with it before classifying a public road or a proposed public road as a national road under subsection (1) (a) or before making an order under paragraph (a) of this subsection relating to a national road.


(4) (a) The Minister shall assign a number or other identifying mark to each national road and regional road.


(b) A road authority shall assign a number or other identifying mark to each local road in respect of which it has responsibility.


(5) (a) A road authority shall keep a schedule and map of all public roads in respect of which it has responsibility.


(b) A road authority shall prepare the schedule and map as soon as practicable after the commencement of this section and shall take all reasonable measures to keep the schedule and map up to date.


(c) The schedule and map shall be kept at the offices of the road authority and shall be available for inspection during office hours.


(d) The schedule and map may be kept otherwise than in a legible form provided that the information contained therein is capable of being reproduced in a legible form.


(e) Articles 85, 86 and 87 of the Public Bodies Order, 1946 are hereby revoked.


(6) A road authority shall, at the request of the Minister and in such manner as may be specified by him, carry out an inventory of all public roads, or of any class or subclass of public road, in respect of which it has responsibility

Now the problem is that the N6 and N18 were not a "new or replacement" section they having been ( or may still be) national primary roads.

Furthermore a Road ( National or Regional) must START in a named location...a Townland or Urban street. The subsections 10(1)d and 10(1)e allow for automatic transfer fo designation where a new section is built ALONG a route .....ie a Ballaghadereen bypass ALONG the N5 and does not explicitly allow for redesignation of start and end points.....which appear to require a Ministerial order as ever.

This explains why the N62 grew and shrank in the period between 2006 and 2011 as I showed earlier....the same problem applies to the N65 and N66 ...and the N77 and N29.

The primary routes were initially assigned at some stage to the Motorways and these new primary routes were designated motorways under the 2007 Act ...especially in these 2 orders.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2008/en/si/0279.html
http://www.attorneygeneral.ie/esi/2009/B26966.pdf

Under the same 2007 amendment to the 1993 act many powers were devolved to Local Authorities....but not designation.

http://www.attorneygeneral.ie/esi/2008/B25995.pdf

The Roads Act 2007 was evidently drafted by a complete plank ...they are probably a secretary of some government department by now.....Finance perhaps??

Only a ministerial order can change a start or end location for a National or Regional Road. No such orders exist. We have not had a roads act since 2007...plenty of Road Traffic acts mind you but no roads act.

Victor

Roads Act 2007 wrote:

(e) Where a new section or a replacement section of a national or regional road is proposed or has been provided, the new or replacement section is, unless provided by order of the Minister under this subsection, a national or regional road, as the case may be. Any section of the existing road which remains following the construction of the new or replacement section becomes a local road.

I can imagine that working for an on-line reconstruction that has minor deviations, not something like the Waterford Bypass or Ballinasloe-Oranmore.

Some really sloppy and lazy draughting there.

Sponge Bob

That section 10(1) would cover a Ballaghaderreen Bypass seeing as the start and end points of the N5 itself are not affected. The slob in Transport did not allow for varying start and end points save where a New Or Replacement road was built on the route to be varied.

The N62 N66 and N77 were all to be extended onto EXISTING Roads ....not new or replacement ones. That explains why the N62 was 'disextended' back to the townland in which it legally starts.....albeit gaining c.30m over its 2005 length to take it to the townland boundary and even that is dodgy in my opinion.

Arguably 10(1) might cover the N5 LONGFORD Bypass ....

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2006/en/si/0187.html

Between its junction with N4 at Lisnamuck in the county of Longford and ..

were the new N5 Longford Bypass starting in Lisnamuck. It isn't as it happens.

Danno

MYOB wrote: »

By your definition, the N77 ends in Durrow village, nowhere near any other N road. Everyone else accepts it extends along the former N8 to the M7.

The former N8 from M7 Junction 17 Portlaoise South to Durrow has been resigned N77.

The former N8 from Durrow to Cork was resigned R639, although still has a 100kph speed limit for most of it's route.