Would a Wrestling based drama have mass appeal

Lord TSC

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

The missus is trying to get me to write a PW movie over christmas. Used to write a lot (did media production etc) but now i cant find anything to write about and she is suggesting that since in my explanation about why I watch wrestling I mentioned the potential it has that is rarely fulfilled and equated it to a soap opera more aimed at men, she says I should I should write what I think it could be.

nothing ive written has ever been made into more than a play but it could be fun for a laugh.

I've always been tempted to write a pilot script for a wrestling based drama and send it round, but I've never had the confidence it would appeal to a mass market

Bounty Hunter

Teamshadowclan wrote:

I've always been tempted to write a pilot script for a wrestling based drama and send it round, but I've never had the confidence it would appeal to a mass market

that's actually what I started writing but so far have instead outlined a 4/5 season arc of for a tv show instead. I often struggle with the dialogue much more than the story though and know I'm not the greatest writer so writing an actual script for an episode can oddly take a lot longer than planning it to even littlest of details.

The story would appeal to the masses though and not just wrestling fans once it was done right. Think of the movie warrior for example, humanise your wrestler and show his struggles off screen / out of the ring so that non fans can associate with him and then can will him on in the ring too. Have his success outside of wrestling atleast at first dependant on how his wrestling career is doing so again non wrestling fans will care if his character is doing well. Of cours there would be all the things the wrestling fans would want to see too that non fans wouldn't even know about and these things could be very helpful storyline vehicles, creative politicking, censorship, injuries, wellness, relationships with the boss/divas etc

Lord TSC

Yeay, new topic

Funnily enough, I feel I'm pretty decent at dialouge (I've been told by agents its my strenght), but I'd worry I'd have difficulty straddling the line between actual wrestling show and character-based drama.

I've always said if I make a name for myself as an author, I'd start writing a book about a guy with cancer who decides to try and become a world champ before he died. There'd be a wrestling promotion who'd exploit him for good PR but treat him badly backstage. A real struggle as the guy tries to prove himself in the macho world of wretling, all the while dealing with the fatal illness which is tearing him apart.

The idea of a wrestling-based drama is kind of why I was so interested in the Wrestling Revolution Product though; the original pitches I saw seemed to line it up as a season-based, episode content not nessecarily based around in-ring action but the characters behind the scenes. Add to that I've been watching The West Wing recently, a show about a subject matter I've got little interest in but which is absolutly fascinating to me, and has me wondering could a wrestling based show have the same appeal to non-wrestling fans.

Here's a question; do you maintain kayfabe? Do you write it achknowledging the scripted nature of wrestling? Could such a show appeal to the masses if it wasn't based on kayfabed stories but around the people who are playing the kayfabed characters? Like a show within a show, ala 30 Rock or Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip?

jaykhunter

fwiw i thought 2010's Tough Enough did a great job of mixing wrestling and a reality show. But if u were doing an episodic drama it'd be best to show both work and shoot aspects of wrestling; it's something that makes wrestling so unique. Definitely a seasonal-feel where the guy could move from wrestling school to kid's birthday parties to small shows up to ROH etc. I think it'd be great but I doubt anything with the word wrestling on it would have mass appeal - much like if boxing or ufc tried it. But wrestling's presented show and behind the scenes show is it's own unique world which makes it much more compelling. Awesome.

rossieboy

I would love to see something like that!!

You could use Footballers Wives or Dream Team as an example.. They were football based dramas.

Bounty Hunter

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Yeay, new topic

Funnily enough, I feel I'm pretty decent at dialouge (I've been told by agents its my strenght), but I'd worry I'd have difficulty straddling the line between actual wrestling show and character-based drama.

I've always said if I make a name for myself as an author, I'd start writing a book about a guy with cancer who decides to try and become a world champ before he died. There'd be a wrestling promotion who'd exploit him for good PR but treat him badly backstage. A real struggle as the guy tries to prove himself in the macho world of wretling, all the while dealing with the fatal illness which is tearing him apart.

The idea of a wrestling-based drama is kind of why I was so interested in the Wrestling Revolution Product though; the original pitches I saw seemed to line it up as a season-based, episode content not nessecarily based around in-ring action but the characters behind the scenes. Add to that I've been watching The West Wing recently, a show about a subject matter I've got little interest in but which is absolutly fascinating to me, and has me wondering could a wrestling based show have the same appeal to non-wrestling fans.

Here's a question; do you maintain kayfabe? Do you write it achknowledging the scripted nature of wrestling? Could such a show appeal to the masses if it wasn't based on kayfabed stories but around the people who are playing the kayfabed characters? Like a show within a show, ala 30 Rock or Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip?

I think you would have to break kayfabe to be something people could associate with properly and find realistic. Admit that it is staged but make it about the charcter winning over the audience in the role given to him or winning over the creative team or boss or whatever and getting into a position he thinks he deserves be that cos he is a great athlete, talker or just that that is his desire.

The West Wing is a great show, imagine sorkin writting the goings on backstage during Raw. Imagine the storylines about the wrestler banging the bosses daughter (too close to reality i know) to get ahead and the same guy then holding down the lead character or him being buried for mistakes outside the ring and being put on a losing streak for example.

Personally I think that a lot more material for a drama would come from breaking kayfabe than not. Shoot promo's, podcast appearances, pitching ideas to creative, future endevoured characters, backstage rivalries/friendships, screwjobs, last minute re-writes, planning spots etc.

I like your idea especially the details like a promotion exploiting his story though I cant help think atm with Shows like The Big C / Breaking bad you might almost need another hook than cancer but tbh Wrestling would probably be it.

Also like you say maybe there wouldnt actually be that much wrestling in such a show, I mean how much writting do you actually see Hank Moody do in Californication as apposed to banging diva material.

Lord TSC

jaykhunter wrote: »

fwiw i thought 2010's Tough Enough did a great job of mixing wrestling and a reality show. But if u were doing an episodic drama it'd be best to show both work and shoot aspects of wrestling; it's something that makes wrestling so unique. Definitely a seasonal-feel where the guy could move from wrestling school to kid's birthday parties to small shows up to ROH etc. I think it'd be great but I doubt anything with the word wrestling on it would have mass appeal - much like if boxing or ufc tried it. But wrestling's presented show and behind the scenes show is it's own unique world which makes it much more compelling. Awesome.

This, I reckon, would be the big problem. As soon as any agent or producer saw "wrestling" in a pitch, I think it would sadly die on its ass. Going back to WRP, isn't that funded by donations? I know from my experience of trying to get a time travel, post-apocalyptic sci-fi novel published that agents and publishers take one look at your pitch and reject it if it's not marketable

Tbh, I think, if I were writing it, I wouldn't show any actual wrestling in it at all, or at least as little as I could. The entirity of the action would be second hand, and the show would focus entirely on the backstage relationships. I've actually got an opening scene in my head which would start the show as the main champion got injuried, throwing all stories into disarray, having everyone backstage suddenly positioning themselves to become the next top guy... imagine if it was announced tomorrow that John Cena's career was completly over; how would that affect the backstage?

Personally I think that a lot more material for a drama would come from breaking kayfabe than not. Shoot promo's, podcast appearances, pitching ideas to creative, future endevoured characters, backstage rivalries/friendships, screwjobs, last minute re-writes, planning spots etc.

See, that's what I mean. There's about six seasons worth of stuff there :P Add to that obsessive fans, creative leaks, real world events impacting on the writing of the shows...there's so much reality you could draw on from WWE alone.

Argh, shouldn't have started thinking about this, especially after just finishing my third watching of Studio 60. Giving me ideas. :P

I like your idea especially the details like a promotion exploiting his story though I cant help think atm with Shows like The Big C / Breaking bad you might almost need another hook than cancer but tbh Wrestling would probably be it.

Never seen them tbh, but the cancer thing is more of a placeholder; its more I'd have the character with something exploitable...

Bounty Hunter

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

This, I reckon, would be the big problem. As soon as any agent or producer saw "wrestling" in a pitch, I think it would sadly die on its ass. Going back to WRP, isn't that funded by donations? I know from my experience of trying to get a time travel, post-apocalyptic sci-fi novel published that agents and publishers take one look at your pitch and reject it if it's not marketable
.....

its very possible because it is always still a gamble as to who it is being shown it, if they have a very low opinion of PW they could easily pass on it without seing its potential but as said once you make the human element of it the centerpiece it could work. Friday Night Lights for example was critically acclaimed and a show about high school football in a nutshell but actually only has very little game footage as it focuses primarily on the relationships that form around the game / players / families in the town of Dillon, Texas instead.

I really like the opening with a champ being injured as a great way to introduce the backstage fracas and a scramble from characters to get their own spots / full the void creatively etc. Personally I guess im going for a wrestler as the main charachter so just going for someone relatable struggling with all the backstage issues as a way of highlighting them. Maybe give him one big rivalry per season examples like

Season 1: Vs Creative
Seasom 2: Vs The Boss
Season 3: Vs The face of the company
Season 4: Vs The Censors
Season 5: Vs Popular Culture
Season 6: Vs Retirement

and thats just within the confounds of a WWE esque environment. As you say so much could be taken from reality especially characters, Vince, HHH, Jeff Hardy, hell even Zack Ryder would all probably end up being replicated be it intentional or not. The hands on control freak boss, The wrestler with backstage clout, The Screw up, The Internet darling etc

Diabhal Beag

A wrestling drama sounds honestly like the worst possible show ever in that it will took so much explanation. Filling non-fans in on what's happening would be hard. If you go kayfabe you're cutting out any possible good storylines about death and drugs so you have to break kayfabe which will require even more explanation of what's happening. The negative viewpoint on wrestling in the mainstream won't help when it comes to pitching scripts and the realistic odds of getting it picked up.

Would ye pitch it to Irish companies or would ye be looking for something like a HBO syndication?

GTR63

If your pitching it do a network do it like George in Seinfeld. Its a show about nothing.

Lord TSC

Would ye pitch it to Irish companies or would ye be looking for something like a HBO syndication?

Speaking from experience of trying to ship round a movie in the past, you'd have to do neither. Best bet would be to try and find an agent in England (there's only about 4 or 5 credible, big name ones in Ireland so England is the closest port of call) and get them to start shipping it round to production companies.

At a push, you've got the likes of the BBC Writer's Room which encourages submissions from new writers, but the success rates are apparently pretty low. I've pitched to RTE twice via the email for submissions on their website, but got no reply either time; that said, they also wanted budget estimates which a normal writer starting off will have NO clue on whatsoever. Channel 4, afaik, don't actually accept submissions from people with no agents, and most production companies won't talk to you unless you've got an agent either.

Annoyingly, most agents will likely not want to talk to you until you've got a production company on board

parker kent

Diabhal Beag wrote: »

A wrestling drama sounds honestly like the worst possible show ever in that it will took so much explanation. Filling non-fans in on what's happening would be hard.

But Aronofsky filled in non wrestling fans in a 2 hour movie. Look at The Wire, it dived in and expected viewers to learn as they watched. If a show is well written, directed, produced etc, you don't necessarily need to lower your aims.

Diabhal Beag

Ya but you need somebody like Darren Arnofsky to do it justice of any sort. He based it around an old guy and made it a relevant story people cared for. These guys want to base many seasons around it.

Bounty Hunter

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Speaking from experience of trying to ship round a movie in the past, you'd have to do neither. Best bet would be to try and find an agent in England (there's only about 4 or 5 credible, big name ones in Ireland so England is the closest port of call) and get them to start shipping it round to production companies.

At a push, you've got the likes of the BBC Writer's Room which encourages submissions from new writers, but the success rates are apparently pretty low. I've pitched to RTE twice via the email for submissions on their website, but got no reply either time; that said, they also wanted budget estimates which a normal writer starting off will have NO clue on whatsoever. Channel 4, afaik, don't actually accept submissions from people with no agents, and most production companies won't talk to you unless you've got an agent either.

Annoyingly, most agents will likely not want to talk to you until you've got a production company on board

that sounds about right. It can be very frustrating and you usually get very little feedback too. IIRC though I used BBC writers room before and they did give me some advice on changes I could make but others werent so lucky.

Its all about finding someone who thinks they can pitch your script as you said agents or possibly someone directly involved in the production companies.

tbh I do think that you would have a harder time trying to shop something like that around on this (where you guys are) side of the atlantic too but if the script was good enough someone would want it. I do recognise that the type of thing I wal elluding to earlier with a several seaso arc based around a WWE esque world and the life of a Pro Wrestler would probably need the backing of someone like HBO and wouldnt be too feasible in other circumstances but alternative smaller versions could obviously be done

Hygro

if you were writing a wrestling drama you'd have to do it like "The Wrestler", there's no other way.

You'd have to base it around the backroom with only small forays into the ring every now and then. Basically write it from a newcomers prospective having to deal with all of the **** that happens backstage.

Lord TSC

Diabhal Beag wrote: »

Ya but you need somebody like Darren Arnofsky to do it justice of any sort. He based it around an old guy and made it a relevant story people cared for. These guys want to base many seasons around it.

There's many ways you could make it relevant, especially if you were basing it around the backstage aspects of the show; we all have had jobs we thought were hectic and crazy. It wouldn't need to be over simplified. You just need to make sure the characters are human.

rovert

Ever see the series Nikki or Learning The Ropes

parker kent

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

There's many ways you could make it relevant, especially if you were basing it around the backstage aspects of the show; we all have had jobs we thought were hectic and crazy. It wouldn't need to be over simplified. You just need to make sure the characters are human.

I'd pretty much agree. You can make a good TV show about any job really. Think about what a wrestling show can do: the issues with being on the road (family issues, loneliness etc), worrying about keeping a job, working for idiots, abuse from fans, people laughing at you being a "fake" wrestler, the injuries, the drugs etc etc.

A great wrestling show would need to be about the people behind the curtain. I wouldn't necessarily demonize any character either. The owners, bookers, wrestlers etc all have their issues. Think of the basic human tragedy of somebody working away for shít money, getting injured, getting a drug addiction and losing touch with loved ones all to "live the dream" of being a wrestler. Then that dream ends up with you stuck somewhere like FCW long-term constantly hoping for the call-up.

Obviously it would have to be well written and directed, I have said that. But there is the possibility that a good TV show could be written about wrestling.

It would need to be extremely well written to avoid stereotypes (think what would Russo do and do the opposite :P). But there have been plenty of shows, movies etc that have been about industries that not that many would understand that have been very successful.

Ya but you need somebody like Darren Arnofsky to do it justice of any sort. He based it around an old guy and made it a relevant story people cared for. These guys want to base many seasons around it.

So you think that you can only do that about that one type of character? What about the owner? Or the young kid trying to make his breakthrough? Or the wife of somebody involved in wrestling? Or a young woman that is training to be in wrestling. Think about what stuff she would go through in training and on the road. Think of all the great books, articles, stories you have heard about wrestling. Those stories could be taken and used to create an interesting story that is about basic human interests.

Diabhal Beag

Every story I've heard screams comedy series. You can base it around as many people as possible but you'd want to make a very good show to be able to win over the usual "two gays grappling in underpants" stereotype. Darren Aronofsky is successful and a household name when it comes to directors.

Otis Driftwood

parker kent wrote: »

But Aronofsky filled in non wrestling fans in a 2 hour movie. Look at The Wire, it dived in and expected viewers to learn as they watched. If a show is well written, directed, produced etc, you don't necessarily need to lower your aims.

The thing with The Wrestler is that there is little actual wrestling in it,little wrestling lingo too.Its a drama that could have been done about a boxer or any other type of contact sport star.It appealed to wrestling fans because we have all seen our heros return too many times trying to make a quick buck - Scott Hall springs instantly to mind - so we could to relate to that aspect of it.Non wrestling fans could relate to it because of the interaction between Rourke and Tomei and Rourkes fractured relationship with his daughter.They are completely wrestling unrelated and are every day occurances which is why it hooked people.

I dont believe a TV show would have the holding power that The Wrestler had.

parker kent

Diabhal Beag wrote: »

Every story I've heard screams comedy series. You can base it around as many people as possible but you'd want to make a very good show to be able to win over the usual "two gays grappling in underpants" stereotype. Darren Aronofsky is successful and a household name when it comes to directors.

I don't see how me saying there is potential for a series based on a guy coping with drug addiction, a failing career etc is a comedy.

Darren Aronofsky being successful has nothing really do with it. I know very well how successful he has been in his career. I just used him as an example of how to create a drama based around a wrestler. But anyway, everybody needs something to break out in order to become successful. Darren Aronofsky, Christopher Nolan etc have held the same principles from their first movies too. Ditto David Simon.

I know I am talking about the best of the best here, but if somebody with a lot of talent decided to make a wrestling based drama, it could work. Look at Game of Thrones and how it has won over the masses (Ditto The Lord of the Rings). Look at Battlestar Gallactica and how it went passed the stereotypes about sci-fi. It would easily have been a joke but they focused on core story telling, themes and basic humanity.

Otis Driftwood wrote: »

The thing with The Wrestler is that there is little actual wrestling in it,little wrestling lingo too.Its a drama that could have been done about a boxer or any other type of contact sport star.It appealed to wrestling fans because we have all seen our heros return too many times trying to make a quick buck - Scott Hall springs instantly to mind - so we could to relate to that aspect of it.Non wrestling fans could relate to it because of the interaction between Rourke and Tomei and Rourkes fractured relationship with his daughter.They are completely wrestling unrelated and are every day occurances which is why it hooked people.

I dont believe a TV show would have the holding power that The Wrestler had.

My points have all been based around it being open to non-wrestling fans. I wouldn't expect or want it to be full of in-ring action. I'd watch actual wrestling if I wanted to see that. I would want something that explores their lives behind the scenes. That is more interesting. They almost all have fúcked up personal lives, deal with injuries, have or work with people with addiction etc etc etc. I could easily imagine somebody creating a series with 12 episodes that would hook people.

Any great TV series needs basic themes and stories that everybody can relate to. Do I relate to my best friend becoming King because a Lannister killed a mad king? No but Game of Thrones explores basic human stories that we can all relate to and frames them in a fantastical world. Ditto The Wire.

Actually in relation to insider wrestling terms, they used insider lingo from the get-go in The Wire. It was up to people to learn as they watched. Look at Snoops in The Wire.

Any wrestling drama would NEED to be universal. It should explore basic themes and characters that are universal. It should basically be an examination of common human stories that just happens to take place in the world of wrestling. Good TV shows explore the same things whether it happens in a 60s advertising agency, a Baltimore street corner, a fleet of star ships or backstage at a wrestling show.

Lord TSC

I wouldn't expect or want it to be full of in-ring action.

I think it's even been said (or at least I've said) I'd personally have no in-ring action in it at all. The entire series would be behind the curtain; what happens before and after the actors walk through it. To give a few examples, Smallville (while dodgy in terms of quality) made the smart move of doing a Superman drama with "No tights, no fights", and allowed it to become mainstream. The West Wing did politics without actually showing much of the American political system as it exists in the public eye (At least to begin with). Studio 60 would have been perfect if it had not shown so many of the skits and revealed how unfunny most of them were.

I think you'd need a character who non-wrestling fans could relate to; a journalist or someone from the network or a personal assistant character who is backstage but doesn't know the lingo so needs it explained to them (Donna in West Wing springs to mind; a novice to politics when she joins and learns how things work by asking her boss questions, allowing him to explain it to her and the audience). Even then, what lingo is there that would take more than two seconds to explain? You've got kayfabe, face and heel. Thats about it. Move names would be non-existant mainly due to a lack of actual matches being shown.

parker kent

Exactly. There are plenty of shows with far more complex insider language than wrestling that have had mainstream success. I was watching Sons of Anarchy earlier and it is an example of how a show about a potentially off putting setting can achieve great success. Bikers in leather could easily be laughed at where it not so well written.