Inconsistent Moderation on Christianity

Improbable

Just looking for some Admin attention on this one with regards to what I feel is inconsistent moderation on the christianity forum. I reported a post in the christianity forum and there was no obvious infraction or on-thread warning so I followed up with the forum mods. The post in question is here.

I've already PM'ed the mods in the christianity forum and the Soc CMods. I feel that the responses I received were unsatisfactory. I was then directed to post here by the CMods to get an admin response as the next step. I've included the PMs that were exchanged below.



edit: I removed the PM exchange between myself and PDN after this was moved to Helpdesk by Spear as PDN did not give me permission to post the PMs anywhere when I asked him.

Improbable wrote:

Dades wrote:

I'm probably the wrong person to comment, being broadly responsible for allowing the "vicious little animals" their way a lot of the time...

That said we also have allowed Eramen his say in A&A without any gagging, as to do otherwise would be hypocritical.

By rights, PDN should be sanctioning/warning that post if you were to go with the charter, but I feel for him sometimes. He's close to the subject matter and frankly I'm inclined to cut him some slack - it really sounds like he was having a bad day.

I don't know why non-Christians post there anyway.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts. Like I said, I'm somewhat 'involved' but maybe comments from nesf or Scofflaw might play a different tune.
Dades

I understand what you're saying and as I said in my PM, I also understand that he's frustrated by the position that he is in. But on the other hand, I don't think that changes anything in terms of what the forum charter is or what was said by Eramen.

By his own admission, PDN is making a decision based on the fact that he doesn't like the way christians are treated in another forum. That he considered a yellow card but decided to let Eramen say what he did without consequence is a major problem for me and as far as I know, is not the way moderation on boards is supposed to work. I don't see many moderators using the argument that "Well person A was an asshole to person B, so I'm going to let person C be an asshole to person D."

I don't really think 2 wrongs make a right and if PDN has a problem with the moderation that goes on in another forum, he should send a message to the moderators of that forum or to the category mods. Or post a thread in feedback, just like any other user.

He shouldn't be taking it out in a passive aggressive manner (in my opinion) on atheists who happen to post in the christianity forum by allowing this sort of thing to carry on and turning a blind eye to it.

With regards to the actual statement made by Eramen, he's certainly entitled to his opinions and he's free to post them, as has been demonstrated on both the A&A and christianity forum, as long as it does not contravene the respective forum charters or the general boards instructions, i.e. don't be a dick.

p.s. nesf indicated that he felt Dades covered it well enough that he didn't feel the need to add anything.

Spear

Moved to Helpdesk, as this isn't DRP related.

Improbable

Spear wrote: »

Moved to Helpdesk, as this isn't DRP related.

Just to point out, I was directed to post in the Dispte Resolution forum by nesf.

Spear

Improbable wrote: »

Just to point out, I was directed to post in the Dispte Resolution forum by nesf.

Then nesf was mistaken. DRP only covers bans and infractions, and since you received neither, this isn't for the DRP.

Plowman

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Improbable

Plowman wrote: »

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I think it's a little disingenuous to equate not capitalising the word christianity with the statements that Eramen made. At any rate, this thread isn't about me. Whether I capitalise a word or not has no bearing on the content of Eramen's post or on the christianity forum charter or on the site-wide rule of not being a dick.

Plowman

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Improbable

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I wouldn't care at all if you spelled my name all in lowercase. At any rate, I think it's a stretch to say that not using capitalisation correctly is rude, demeaning, uncivil and disparaging. It's certainly not on the same level as Eramen's post. This issue of me being "uncivil" is not the reason why Eramen's post was not actioned. I can't share the PM sent to me by PDN as to exactly why he didn't action the post as he has forbade me from doing so when I asked him, but suffice it to say, that was not the reason that was given.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Improbable

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

If Eramen, or anybody else for that matter, has a problem with what I post or how I post it, they can report it and you can feel free to action it on the forum. You can decide it however you like and I will follow the necessary appeals procedures. Even if I was being any of those things, which I don't think I was, that changes nothing with regards to what Eramen posted or the rules that apply to the forum. If you wish to apply the rules in a slanted manner, then at least declare that you will be doing so on the charter. I would have no problem with that.

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

My dislike for christianity and religion in general has nothing to do with it. I'm able to post quite politely on the forum. If my lack of capitalization is breaking a rule, please, do action it.

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I see. So in Eramen's case, it's only a "perceived transgression", but in my case it's "crossing the line". If you think it's so offensive, action it. If it's not so offensive, then why bring it up and equate it with what Eramen said?

Eramen did not have a go at atheists or antitheists because they didn't capitalise the word christian. He did so because I asked the question "And what is your basis for saying that?" of a person who said that if you did not hear god speaking to you, that there is something seriously wrong with you. As I said before, the same question could have been asked by someone of a different religious persuasion and I doubt it would have received such a vitriolic response. Meaning that it wasn't the question which was causing offence, it was the religious view of the person asking it.

At any rate, I won't discuss this with you any further as I feel we're simply not going to change each other's minds, leaving little to be gained. I only posted this message so that an admin could take a look at it and give a final ruling.

Dades

This thread is pointless without a bit of clarification.

The gist of PDNs response to Improbable was that people have licence to say what they think about religion in A&A, so that if someone occasionally has a rant about irreligion in Christianity it might be let go.

Unorthodox, perhaps, but understandable.

Plowman

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Improbable

Bump for some admin attention?

Gordon

Improbable wrote: »

Bump for some admin attention?

Hi there, sorry, but you'll need to explain in bite size terms what exact quote you have an issue with please. There is a great deal of text to go through so please can you limit your position to only relevant points?

Then, please tell me what you would see fit as a resolution.

Improbable

I have 2 issues. The first is the lack of moderation on this post:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76064782&postcount=31

In my opinion it is a breach of the 3rd part of the christianity forum charter which states: "Bigotry, crude generalisations and unreasonable antagonism will not be tolerated. This rule encompasses all intolerance towards creeds, beliefs, lifestyles or opinions that differ from one's own."

I also believe it is a breach of the general don't be a dick rule.


My second issue is that I feel the response I received from PDN about why the post was not actioned was unsatisfactory in explaining why the reported post was not actioned in some way. I cannot post the PM here as I do not have permission from PDN to do so, and I don't know if you can see them or not. I can forward them on if you need to see it.


My position is that moderation should not be applied in a biased fashion, where people are allowed to have a go at atheists just because it's the christianity forum.


An ideal result from my end would be an acknowledgement that in the future, this type of antagonism is not simply allowed to be posted without some sort of action being taken, whether that be an infraction or even just a simple "hey guys, let's play nicely".

Gordon

Improbable wrote: »

I have 2 issues. The first is the lack of moderation on this post:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76064782&postcount=31

In my opinion it is a breach of the 3rd part of the christianity forum charter which states: "Bigotry, crude generalisations and unreasonable antagonism will not be tolerated. This rule encompasses all intolerance towards creeds, beliefs, lifestyles or opinions that differ from one's own."

I also believe it is a breach of the general don't be a dick rule.

What is? What comment, what part? What is the problem exactly?

My second issue is that I feel the response I received from PDN about why the post was not actioned was unsatisfactory in explaining why the reported post was not actioned in some way. I cannot post the PM here as I do not have permission from PDN to do so, and I don't know if you can see them or not. I can forward them on if you need to see it.

Yes please

My position is that moderation should not be applied in a biased fashion, where people are allowed to have a go at atheists just because it's the christianity forum.


An ideal result from my end would be an acknowledgement that in the future, this type of antagonism is not simply allowed to be posted without some sort of action being taken, whether that be an infraction or even just a simple "hey guys, let's play nicely".

Thank you.

Improbable

Gordon wrote: »

What is? What comment, what part? What is the problem exactly?

"That is before all you 'pretend atheists' aka anti-theists, came here and imposed your rather snide, ideology-tainted remarks on things, generally seeking to derail everything into a 'god-bashing' agenda. I think the obnoxious back-patting in the form of 'thank you's' and the usual faddish New Atheist behaviour should be left at the door on these topics. We have a whole AA forum dedicated to measuring oneself by ridiculous anti-theism and and proving yer 'scoopieror intelligunce'."


That is the comment. The problem, exactly, is that I think this is a clear breach of the charter with regards to unreasonable antagonism and nothing was done about it and that the reason no action was taken was unsatisfactory.

Gordon

Firstly, point one of the Christianity charter states: "This forum has the additional purpose of being a point on Boards.ie where Christians may ask other Christians questions about their shared faith. In this regard, Christians should not have to defend their faith from overt or subtle attack."

I would see your opening posts on that thread contravening point one, considering your stance on theism as can be understood by reading your posting history, and the big MASSIVE "ATHEISM" avatar. I believe that you haven't been infracted/banned for your behaviour on that thread, is that correct? To play Devil's advocate, I would posit that maybe the Christian forum is getting pretty bloody fed up with Atheists trying to god bash making them constantly defend their faith.

Improbable

Gordon wrote: »

Firstly, point one of the Christianity charter states: "This forum has the additional purpose of being a point on Boards.ie where Christians may ask other Christians questions about their shared faith. In this regard, Christians should not have to defend their faith from overt or subtle attack."

I would see your opening posts on that thread contravening point one, considering your stance on theism as can be understood by reading your posting history, and the big MASSIVE "ATHEISM" avatar. I believe that you haven't been infracted/banned for your behaviour on that thread, is that correct? To play Devil's advocate, I would posit that maybe the Christian forum is getting pretty bloody fed up with Atheists trying to god bash making them constantly defend their faith.

I do not believe that what I said can be construed as an attack. Based on the original unedited post, I honestly thought that it was an appropriate comment to make. I believe that anyone could have posted what I did, regardless of their religious view. If something in my post was seen as being god-bashing, that was not my intention.

Gordon

I don't see it that way dude, your glaring atheism avatar and your actions on that thread point to you specifically making subtle attacks on Christianity, this kind of activity just breeds off-topicness and annoyance. Personally, I'd have warned or banned you for your charter breach. But, yes, if I did that, I would also have yellow carded the person in your 1st issue. So, if you weren't banned for your behaviour, and he wasn't warned, I put it down to either the Mod having more pressing issues to attend to instead of petty bickering, arguing and attacks on the community's beliefs, or the Mod not thinking that either infractions warranted action.

Therefore, to resolve this now, and to answer your two issues:

1) I don't believe further action needs to take place wrt poster correction. However, I'll speak with the mod that PMd you, and point out my take on the 'don't be a dick' rule for forum posters.
2) "the response I received from PDN about why the post was not actioned was unsatisfactory": The charter states that the Mod does not need to give a response. You yourself stated that you didn't expect any feedback in your PM to him. Therefore, I'm surprised that you have this second issue.

I'll mark this as resolved now, this dual issue is closed.