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Newgrange tomorrow for the solstice!!???
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20-12-2011 11:33pm#1
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭
Join Date:Posts: 59022
Well ancient Egyptians were incredibly sophisticated, but their religion had a lot of "interesting" sexual symbolism and odd practices the Discovery channel tends to avoid.slowburner wrote: »Maybe they did mean it to symbolically represent the rebirth of the new year and maybe it did have sexual connotations. But I doubt it.
EG at one point in their history, one practice was where the Pharaoh's primary wife would *ahem* give her husband hand relief so that he would spill his seed on a sacred stone deep in the bowels of the temple. Watched by high priests. IIRC one of the titles that a Pharaohs wife had was "the hand of God". So the Newgrange chaps and chappesses may well have had the whole womb of the earth, willy of the son thing going on. Another interesting one about Newgrange is every 17-18 years(?) the full moon appears in the box/entrance before the sun comes up. Further there's a Greek (IIRC) text that describes a circular temple of the sun and moon and gives the same timing. They say it's the lands above the north winds. Engineers, scientists, philosophers they were, geographers they were not 
. The British sometimes claim they speak of Stonehenge, but Newgrange fits the bill a lot better. Also IIRC later Roman coins were found nearby at the site. It may have been a lot more famous in the ancient world than we realise. Don't get me started on the hollywood reconstruction... Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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That would make for an interesting Hollywood title "Newgrange - Womb of the Earth, Willy of the Sun".
I'm no prude, but I just think that far too many things are interpreted as being genitals in archaeology. As if there was nothing else in antiquity to idolise.
Some standing stones/menhirs etc. are pretty obviously phallic - many others are nothing like a phallus but are interpreted this way.
I watched a programme recently about the end of the Roman conquest in Britain. One archaeologist interpreted a symbol on an artifact as a penis - to me it was very clearly a mushroom or toadstool.
She went on to theorise how the barbarians might have painted themselves in woad mixed with semen, the night before they went into battle.
My arse they did, any athlete will tell you that the last thing they should do before a competition is deplete the 'auld bodily fluids and that ain't a modern idea.
Ah yes; "Hibernia which lies between Britain and Iberia"Engineers, scientists, philosophers they were, geographers they were not
...and don't get me started on the Romans in Ireland.Also IIRC later Roman coins were found nearby at the site.
Don't get me started on the hollywood reconstruction...
It would be interesting to hear folks' opinions of the reconstruction of Newgrange.
Any idea what the Greek text is that refers to the circular temple? I'm pretty sure there's nothing in Strabo or Agricola, so it's not a Roman text.0 -
Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59022
Oh sure. It can be a deep rooted thing. Akin to the "if you only have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail" kinda thing.slowburner wrote: »I'm no prude, but I just think that far too many things are interpreted as being genitals in archaeology. As if there was nothing else in antiquity to idolise.
Maybe though depleting the bodily fluids actually increases testosterone so... Plus semen was seen as having great power in many cultures, so it's possible, though yes I'd agree it sounds a bit Daily Mail. Unless someone wrote of this at the time, I'd take it with a large pinch of salt(and even then).She went on to theorise how the barbarians might have painted themselves in woad mixed with semen, the night before they went into battle.
My arse they did, any athlete will tell you that the last thing they should do before a competition is deplete the 'auld bodily fluids and that ain't a modern idea.
Well... that's kinda true. ish.Ah yes; "Hibernia which lies between Britain and Iberia" The hyperboreans seem to change where they live too. Could be anywhere depending on the writer, but it seems to be a general catchall for "that lot up there, where it's cold". Not dissimilar to how the Romans described Celts in that they vary in location too. One writer will place them centred in Germany, others in Romania, others still in Spain.
Personally speaking the facade and entrance is wrong. Too vertical for a start and requires concrete today to keep it in situ. The reconstruction at Knowth is far more sensitive. They laid the white stones as an entrance platform. Neolithic decking kinda thingIt would be interesting to hear folks' opinions of the reconstruction of Newgrange.. Though I'd ask one question of that reconstruction. Try walking on it in thin leather shoes or even barefoot. Not easy. That said and this is the personal bit, I think they're both wrong. Why? OK the white stones were found in an archaeological context at the front of the buildings around the entrance so it seems perfectly logical to assume that's in the general area of where they started life. However if you look at the history of the sites after they went into disuse a couple of things stand out for me. 1) both were dug for gravel and the like. 2) Both were climbed up over centuries(even built on) and 3) old photos particularly of Newgrange show that the route taken by people and animals left a trail by the entrance. These would affect where the stones rolled down. I noticed this on a slope in my own back garden. The remains of an old rock garden have rolled down over the years to the bottom and follow the line of the path, quite away from it's original position(and many quite large stones have apparently "vanished". Over the many centuries of footfall and rain and gravity on these sites you can well imagine the process being even more in evidence.
My theory of it's original look? I would posit that the whole building was covered with a thin layer of white stones, so they looked almost like representations of the moon/sun when seen from a distance and imagined seen from above to their "gods". More like the moon though. Temple of the moon, that the sun entered every year and the moon entered before the sun every 18 years kinda thing. I reckon it could be a moon cult rather than a sun one. A few carvings at Knowth may be moon carvings/calenders. IIRC one researcher made a pretty good case for the latter?
Pythias(sp) I think. Have it in a book somewhere. Talking about a temple of Apollo. Pretty vague and short IIRC and it might refer to stonehenge or newgrange, either could fit, but for me newgrange is the slightly better fit. One big reason is that he describes the god apollo visiting there once every 18 years which would tie in with newgrange but not stonehenge and even more he describes that he does so in winter. Newgrange is aligned to the winter solstice, stonehenge to the summer. Stonehenge is the "wrong" time of year. He also describes the temple as spherical/vaulted, not circular(and the Greeks were precise about that sort of thing) and describes it as adorned with carvings. Stonehenge has no carvings and is circular.Any idea what the Greek text is that refers to the circular temple? I'm pretty sure there's nothing in Strabo or Agricola, so it's not a Roman text.
Sorry I'm running on my not exactly brilliant memory here. Google isn't much of a help or I'm asking the wrong questions.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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The day I stop enjoying your 'running on' is the day I'll be six feet under.
Sorry I'm running on my not exactly brilliant memory here. Google isn't much of a help or I'm asking the wrong questions.
'Twas yourself who pointed me in the direction of Strabo and Agricola elsewhere in my probably pointless (but fun) enquiries.
A little bit of googling tells me that Pytheas was a Greek geographer from present day Marseilles. It seems that his principal work "On the Ocean" was lost, and survives only through references from Polybius around the 2nd century BC.
It seems that he was a pretty good geographer - he calculated the distance from Marseilles to Land's End (where he visited the tin mines of Cornwall) nearly perfectly and calculated the circumference of Britain, which he claimed to have walked all over. This was around the 4th century BC.
So it is not at all unreasonable to suspect that he visited Ireland and perhaps even Newgrange ??0 -
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Here's an excerpt but it doesn't have the part about the tops level to within an inch.
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Thanks for that link slowburner... I don't yet have the privileges to thank your post
I'm a Boards newbie, but am familiar with forum etiquette from other other places.
@In_the_trees:That's really kind of a nice symmetry there to hear that you were in one of the Bru na Boinne passageways while in the womb... especially when you take into account some of the inferences made to wombs and fertility in posts earlier in this thread.0 -
Pythias(sp) I think. Have it in a book somewhere. Talking about a temple of Apollo. Pretty vague and short IIRC and it might refer to stonehenge or newgrange, either could fit, but for me newgrange is the slightly better fit. One big reason is that he describes the god apollo visiting there once every 18 years which would tie in with newgrange but not stonehenge and even more he describes that he does so in winter. Newgrange is aligned to the winter solstice, stonehenge to the summer. Stonehenge is the "wrong" time of year. He also describes the temple as spherical/vaulted, not circular(and the Greeks were precise about that sort of thing) and describes it as adorned with carvings. Stonehenge has no carvings and is circular.
Sorry I'm running on my not exactly brilliant memory here. Google isn't much of a help or I'm asking the wrong questions.slowburner wrote: »A little bit of googling tells me that Pytheas was a Greek geographer from present day Marseilles. It seems that his principal work "On the Ocean" was lost, and survives only through references from Polybius around the 2nd century BC.
It seems that he was a pretty good geographer - he calculated the distance from Marseilles to Land's End (where he visited the tin mines of Cornwall) nearly perfectly and calculated the circumference of Britain, which he claimed to have walked all over. This was around the 4th century BC.
So it is not at all unreasonable to suspect that he visited Ireland and perhaps even Newgrange ??
I found this post by chance and instantly remembered these posts. It's worth a read and discusses the possibility of what Pytheas mentions being either Newgrange or Stonehenge. You'll definitely need to read the comments at the bottom of the page because they correct some of the writer's mistakes.
Fascinating subject.
I've always been amazed at how these monumental places just seem to have been almost completely forgotten about over the course of time, worth a thread of it's own perhaps!0 -
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRnXHGMOMl4
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