Unite In Protest

Avatarr

We are a fractured little society, to date, unable to unite in protest against the austerity measures that are ripping our country apart. Surely we can all come together (public and private sector alike) and stand side by side, sending a strong message, that we won’t take it anymore. When you read of a sixteen year old girl who will have 14 of her teeth needlessly removed, because the HSE won’t pay for filling or a pensioner who goes to bed at six in the evening because he can’t afford heating due to the cuts in heating allowance along with the knowledge of extravagant pensions of ex government ministers (See link below), does it not make you as mad as hell.
http://www.fairocracy.com/facts_and_figures/current_cost_of_ex_tds_and_ministers_yearly_pensions_in_ireland.html

tayto lover

We badly need a coup in this wee country.

hmmm

Coups or protests can not magically generate 14 billion euros in extra taxes to fill the deficit.

I agree with you however, we should have large layoffs and paycuts in the public sector, and social welfare rates should be slashed. I agree with you fully on this.

Tea drinker

I read that sensationalist story in the independent about the 14 teeth being removed.
Apparently the HSE pay for 2 fillings per year, which means she either has 16 rotten teeth or or the article is incorrect.
Is there any chance you might unite against bad parenting to cut the sunny D and other sugary XXXt out? How on earth could she need that many fillings? Either way, not my problem.

And there's no chance of unity between PS and private. Besides that the Unions are delusional at best and have no clue what to do, and imho are not interested in grand solutions. They will stand steadfast against any unity between public and private.

Geekness1234

Occupy Damestreet that way>>>>>>>>

Avatarr

Tea drinker wrote: »

I read that sensationalist story in the independent about the 14 teeth being removed.
Apparently the HSE pay for 2 fillings per year, which means she either has 16 rotten teeth or or the article is incorrect.
Is there any chance you might unite against bad parenting to cut the sunny D and other sugary XXXt out? How on earth could she need that many fillings? Either way, not my problem.

And there's no chance of unity between PS and private. Besides that the Unions are delusional at best and have no clue what to do, and imho are not interested in grand solutions. They will stand steadfast against any unity between public and private.

Have you a suggestion or should we grin and bare it

Welease

Avatarr wrote: »

Have you a suggestion or should we grin and bare it

So are you proposing a protest to request the raising extra taxes to pay for the defecit (and those individual cases you mentioned)...

Or are you complaining about austerity.. but like many others don't actually want to pay any extra taxes or charges required to pay for the services you also want...?

Avatarr

Welease wrote: »

Avatarr wrote: »

Have you a suggestion or should we grin and bare it

So are you proposing a protest to request the raising extra taxes to pay for the defecit (and those individual cases you mentioned)...

Or are you complaining about austerity.. but like many others don't actually want to pay any extra taxes or charges required to pay for the services you also want...?

I Dont mind paying extra tax's, I do mind however where the money is going. The two examples I started with, we're granted, a bit extreme but they are examples of how austerity is affecting people on the street.

BluntGuy

Avatarr wrote: »

Surely we can all come together (public and private sector alike) and stand side by side, sending a strong message, that we won’t take it anymore.

Take what? The money that's funding us?

I'm all for directed protest at specific issues based on sound reasoning, with a clear outcome in mind. Sadly that's not going to happen because many people are only looking to protect their own corner and get others to take the pain. I'd be all for a protest against our taxes being used to fund the redundancy in the public sector and the slashing of crucial capital investment in our infrastructure. But realistically, that's not going to happen.

But for argument's sake, what do you think we should come together and protest about? What aims do you seek to achieve?

n97 mini

Avatarr wrote: »

We are a fractured little society, to date, unable to unite in protest against the austerity measures that are ripping our country apart.

It's not really ripping the country apart. Some people have been hit with sudden unemployment etc and a big mortgage, and some have had to emigrate, but the vast majority are still able to cope. Even someone on social welfare is still far better than they are in any other European country.

Godge

Avatarr wrote: »

I Dont mind paying extra tax's, I do mind however where the money is going. The two examples I started with, we're granted, a bit extreme but they are examples of how austerity is affecting people on the street.

what taxes do you pay already? Are you in employment?

austerity has meant that some rich families have had less money to put away for their second holiday because of the cut in child benefit. That extreme example is as useful as yours. The point is that no change in benefits, for good or bad, will be absolutely equal and fair in its effects. In those circumstances, the use of extreme examples is unhelpful.

Tea drinker

Avatarr wrote: »

Have you a suggestion or should we grin and bare it

No bud, my train of solutions ran out several months ago. But I already gave you a suggestion didn't I

Avatarr

BluntGuy wrote: »

Avatarr wrote: »

Surely we can all come together (public and private sector alike) and stand side by side, sending a strong message, that we won’t take it anymore.

Take what? The money that's funding us?

I'm all for directed protest at specific issues based on sound reasoning, with a clear outcome in mind. Sadly that's not going to happen because many people are only looking to protect their own corner and get others to take the pain. I'd be all for a protest against our taxes being used to fund the redundancy in the public sector and the slashing of crucial capital investment in our infrastructure. But realistically, that's not going to happen.

But for argument's sake, what do you think we should come together and protest about? What aims do you seek to achieve?

Our bailout deal, we recently got a slap on the back for our austerity measures by IMF:ECB. They are now releasing 3.9bn of monies just in time for the next round of bond holder payments of 3.5bn. WSG highlighted last week that austerity was contracting the economy and fitch have us on notice for a rating downgrade.

Welease

Avatarr wrote: »

I Dont mind paying extra tax's, I do mind however where the money is going. The two examples I started with, we're granted, a bit extreme but they are examples of how austerity is affecting people on the street.

It sounds like just another one of those random "down with this sort of thing" protests..

What are you actually trying to protest about, and what's your proposal?

Are you going to protest that we are not paying enough taxes? and that they should be increased to facilitate the services you complain are being cut?
Or are you protesting about the CPA, and the rate of change costing us money?

You keep saying it's an example of austerity affecting people? Is your solution to borrow more money, so we eventually reach the point of no return and we stop all services in 20 years?

Avatarr

Welease wrote: »

Avatarr wrote: »

I Dont mind paying extra tax's, I do mind however where the money is going. The two examples I started with, we're granted, a bit extreme but they are examples of how austerity is affecting people on the street.

It sounds like just another one of those random "down with this sort of thing" protests..

What are you actually trying to protest about, and what's your proposal?

Are you going to protest that we are not paying enough taxes? and that they should be increased to facilitate the services you complain are being cut?
Or are you protesting about the CPA, and the rate of change costing us money?

You keep saying it's an example of austerity affecting people? Is your solution to borrow more money, so we eventually reach the point of no return and we stop all services in 20 years?

Wow, 6 questions in last post! This forum is like many others, it's an open ended comment to drive discussion not a series of questions. If I had all the answers I wouldnt be bothering with boards.

Welease

Avatarr wrote: »

Wow, 6 questions in last post! This forum is like many others, it's an open ended comment to drive discussion not a series of questions. If I had all the answers I wouldnt be bothering with boards.

You want people to protest.. I am simply asking you what they should be protesting about?

You original post is conflicting in that you complain about austerity, yet in order to pay for these extra services you want, there would need to be further austerity (taxes) imposed on people...How does that help?

woodoo

If that girl ends up getting those 14 teeth removed i'll eat my hat.

Avatarr

Welease wrote: »

Avatarr wrote: »

Wow, 6 questions in last post! This forum is like many others, it's an open ended comment to drive discussion not a series of questions. If I had all the answers I wouldnt be bothering with boards.

You want people to protest.. I am simply asking you what they should be protesting about?

You original post is conflicting in that you complain about austerity, yet in order to pay for these extra services you want, there would need to be further austerity (taxes) imposed on people...How does that help?

I think you got a little absorbed in the inquisition, re read posts, thanks

Welease

Avatarr wrote: »

I think you got a little absorbed in the inquisition, re read posts, thanks

Ahh ok.. So its like the other weekly protest posts here then.. No detail to what should happen, but lets get out there and complain about err something...

Gotcha..

(I was interested in your thoughts, but you seem to want to avoid any discussion of what you think.. so it's somewhat pointless).

RichieC

we are divided by media propaganda, unfortunately. most people will happily blame unions, ps workers and the poor before they dare blame someone that might draw accusations of being a commie.

well done neo liberals. you win. you own us now.

Avatarr

Welease wrote: »

Avatarr wrote: »

I think you got a little absorbed in the inquisition, re read posts, thanks

Ahh ok.. So its like the other weekly protest posts here then.. No detail to what should happen, but lets get out there and complain about err something...

Gotcha..

(I was interested in your thoughts, but you seem to want to avoid any discussion of what you think.. so it's somewhat pointless).[/Quote

Gotcha - your kidding, right?

tayto lover

hmmm wrote: »

Coups or protests can not magically generate 14 billion euros in extra taxes to fill the deficit.

I agree with you however, we should have large layoffs and paycuts in the public sector, and social welfare rates should be slashed. I agree with you fully on this.

Good.
You will be very pleased when your kid has 50 others in his class and is doing poorly as a result. Or when your operation has been put off at short notice for 2 months because of lack of nurses. And when you are assaulted and lying on the footpath for over an hour waiting for the Garda and an ambulance to arrive, you will be very happy. Thanks for the agreement though.

BluntGuy

tayto lover wrote: »

Good.
You will be very pleased when your kid has 50 others in his class and is doing poorly as a result. Or when your operation has been put off at short notice for 2 months because of lack of nurses. And when you are assaulted and lying on the footpath for over an hour waiting for the Garda and an ambulance to arrive, you will be very happy. Thanks for the agreement though.

Perhaps if pay was reduced and redundant management grade staff removed, we could afford more of those workers (many of who would be young, thus at the bottom of the pay scale and reducing youth unemployment) and avoid your doomsday scenarios from emerging.

Welease

tayto lover wrote: »

Good.
You will be very pleased when your kid has 50 others in his class and is doing poorly as a result. Or when your operation has been put off at short notice for 2 months because of lack of nurses. And when you are assaulted and lying on the footpath for over an hour waiting for the Garda and an ambulance to arrive, you will be very happy. Thanks for the agreement though.

I don't believe I have seen anyone call for reduction in those areas.. have you?

I have however seen many reports suggesting rationalisation across administration in the HSE for example.. But that of course doesn't make such an emotive case for the continued waste of money now does it?.....

hmmm

tayto lover wrote: »

Good.
You will be very pleased when your kid has 50 others in his class and is doing poorly as a result.

My kids will eventually have 50 in their class because we are cutting back on school spending in order to maintain pay rates and the employment conditions of those teachers inside the system, irrespective of their ability or motivation to teach.

But that's what the Irish people voted for by electing Labour and spineless TDs in the other parties.

tayto lover

BluntGuy wrote: »

Perhaps if pay was reduced and redundant management grade staff removed, we could afford more of those workers (many of who would be young, thus at the bottom of the pay scale and reducing youth unemployment) and avoid your doomsday scenarios from emerging.

I have said the same thing several times BUT we all know where cuts take place and its always at the bottom.

hmmm

tayto lover wrote: »

I have said the same thing several times BUT we all know where cuts take place and its always at the bottom.

And whose fault is that? I didn't hear union leaders making much noise about cutting places for new teachers, and they seemed overjoyed to have negotiated a deal where their members enjoy much better pay and benefits over new entrants.

tayto lover

hmmm wrote: »

My kids will eventually have 50 in their class because we are cutting back on school spending in order to maintain pay rates and the employment conditions of those teachers inside the system, irrespective of their ability or motivation to teach.

But that's what the Irish people voted for by electing Labour and spineless TDs in the other parties.

Were their pay rates not already cut several times? Continued cuts will make unhappy and disgruntled teachers and you still lose out either way. I cannot see anything but trouble ahead in this country and our "leaders" seem only too eager to pay out to unguaranteed bondholders and to fix "bad banks" who won't loan money to anyone now.

tayto lover

Welease wrote: »

I don't believe I have seen anyone call for reduction in those areas.. have you?

I have however seen many reports suggesting rationalisation across administration in the HSE for example.. But that of course doesn't make such an emotive case for the continued waste of money now does it?.....

The H.S.E. is the real problem child in the P.S. as it is top heavy with managers and admin and the people leaving are the ones we need i.e. nurses on the frontline.

tayto lover

hmmm wrote: »

And whose fault is that? I didn't hear union leaders making much noise about cutting places for new teachers, and they seemed overjoyed to have negotiated a deal where their members enjoy much better pay and benefits over new entrants.

In fairness new entrants always start on lower pay even in the Private Sector.

Welease

tayto lover wrote: »

The H.S.E. is the real problem child in the P.S. as it is top heavy with managers and admin and the people leaving are the ones we need i.e. nurses on the frontline.

Precisely.. So why everytime when someone mentions rationalising poor areas within the PS (HSE) do we have to listen to emotional drivel about people lying dead in the streets with no ambulances, garda etc.. yadda yadda yadda..

Cuts in admins/waste levels etc. would allow the country to keep class sizes smaller, put more garda on the streets etc..

tayto lover

Welease wrote: »

Precisely.. So why everytime when someone mentions rationalising poor areas within the PS (HSE) do we have to listen to emotional drivel about people lying dead in the streets with no ambulances, garda etc.. yadda yadda yadda..

Cuts in admins/waste levels etc. would allow the country to keep class sizes smaller, put more garda on the streets etc..

Please explain where the admin is in schools, garda or ambulance. Everyone in those areas is either a teacher (headmaster), superintendant (Garda) or ambulance controller. No excess in any of those but you wanted to cut all over the P.S. that was my point.
I stated that the H.S.E. seems to be the only area with excess administration staff or the area with most. So cut out the silly yadda, yadda, yadda.

hmmm

tayto lover wrote: »

In fairness new entrants always start on lower pay even in the Private Sector.

I've heard this a couple of times and I don't know where this applies. Anywhere I've ever worked, you get paid the going rate for the job irrespective of your age or when you joined. I must be deprived, I've never worked in a company that used increments. Maybe Waterford Glass, Irish shipping or the Irish Press may have been companies like that.

Welease

tayto lover wrote: »

Please explain where the admin is in schools, garda or ambulance. Everyone in those areas is either a teacher (headmaster), superintendant (Garda) or ambulance controller. No excess in any of those but you wanted to cut all over the P.S. that was my point.
I stated that the H.S.E. seems to be the only area with excess administration staff or the area with most. So cut out the silly yadda, yadda, yadda.

There are numerous areas across the PS that are overstaffed. The McCarthy report etc identified many areas where cuts could (and should) have been made. The Admin in HSE is a prime example, but there are also duplicate functions across the County Councils (not necessarily in Admin) that could be cut. It has even been acknowledged within the terms of the CPA as staff are being moved around from overstaffed areas where possible.

The yadda yadda is that anytime anyone mentions cuts in the PS (even in overstaffed areas), we have to listen to posts going on about people dying in the street etc. Once again, noone has asked for cuts in those areas.. So why contintually try and bring it up.. combining HR functions in County Councils won't mean people die in the street.. and not everyone employed in the PS is a frontline Garda, Nurse and Teacher....

tayto lover

hmmm wrote: »

I've heard this a couple of times and I don't know where this applies. Anywhere I've ever worked, you get paid the going rate for the job irrespective of your age or when you joined. I must be deprived, I've never worked in a company that used increments. Maybe Waterford Glass, Irish shipping or the Irish Press may have been companies like that.

I worked in shipping for several years and we had grades.
I think Tara Mines has grades too.

this isn't R&R