What odds Eddie O'Sullivan for Munster job?

kerrysdad

What are peoples views on Eddie O'Sullivan for the Munster Coach job in 2012/2013 with Anthony Foley as his assistant ?

Jedwardian

I think Tony McGahan is doing a fine job. Look at his tenure thus far.

In the first year he won the league, made the Heineken Cup semi final, converted Paul Warwick into a successful fullback and trusted Keith Earls enough that Earls made the Lions squad.

In his second year he once again qualified for the Heineken Cup semi final and oversaw a team in transition qualify for the League semi final.

In year three his team dominated the league, made the Amlin Cup semi final, they beat Australia and he trusted youngsters like Conor Murray and Felix Jones ahead of experienced professionals enough that they both won Ireland caps.

This year they're once again in a League playoff spot and are the only team to have won all four of their Heineken Cup group games thus far. He's achieved this despite a crippling injury list and blooding another chunk of young players like Simon Zebo, Peter O'Mahoney and Danny Barnes.

I think people underestimate the task McGahan faced when he took the job. Just look at the team he put on the field this weekend and compare it to the team he inherited which won the Heineken Cup for the second time. The number of enforced changes in that short time is staggering. All things considered, he has Munster on the right track.

conor1979

Highly unlikely. After the IRFU having to pay him off to get rid of him in 2008 I dont think they would want him anywhere near any of the provinces!

Could be wrong tho! :cool:

Cpt_Blackbeard

Jedwardian wrote: »

I think Tony McGahan is doing a fine job. Look at his tenure thus far.

In the first year he won the league, made the Heineken Cup semi final, converted Paul Warwick into a successful fullback and trusted Keith Earls enough that Earls made the Lions squad.

In his second year he once again qualified for the Heineken Cup semi final and oversaw a team in transition qualify for the League semi final.

In year three his team dominated the league, made the Amlin Cup semi final, they beat Australia and he trusted youngsters like Conor Murray and Felix Jones ahead of experienced professionals enough that they both won Ireland caps.

This year they're once again in a League playoff spot and are the only team to have won all four of their Heineken Cup group games thus far. He's achieved this despite a crippling injury list and blooding another chunk of young players like Simon Zebo, Peter O'Mahoney and Danny Barnes.

I think people underestimate the task McGahan faced when he took the job. Just look at the team he put on the field this weekend and compare it to the team he inherited which won the Heineken Cup for the second time. The number of enforced changes in that short time is staggering. All things considered, he has Munster on the right track.

You're cannot be a Munster fan..

McGahan has done well in the last 12 months at bringing through youth but, he will always be remembered as the one who allowed this Munster team to become the worst one in at least 10 years.

He tried to force a bastardised form of Rugby League shít upon us and hired incompetent backs and forwards coaches to follow his plan. He is also the man who allowed us to go seasons without a scrum coach and this was only addressed when we had one of the worst scrums in the Magners, never mind the HC.

He has improved massively recently and I would have no problems with him staying on in some capacity but, not as head coach. The biggest factor in us being the only team with a 100% record in the HC has been what Axel has brought back to the pack.

I don't really want Eddie anywhere near the Munster setup either, definitely not as a head coach. If he was capable of swallowing his pride and being willing to take a backs/skills role it could be a great signing but, I can't see him willing to do it.

Connor O'Shea is probably the one name that everyone would love to see involved in the setup. A Dean Richards wouldn't be too bad either.Although I have lost a bit of respect for him since Australia's showing at the WC, Jim Williams would be a great man to get in as head coach.

Whoever we get in, should get a 2/3 year deal to allow Axel to grow as a coach before he takes the reigns.

I wonder how Howlett would work as a back's coach? Hopefully he takes a hands-on role with the backs while he is rehabilitating for the rest of the season, and we can see how it goes. It may be a bit of jobs for the boys but, he is one man I don't want to see be allowed leave the system.

mrboswell

I'm not sure who I'd like to see in there but I'd have my reservations about axel for the moment. You'd certainly want him in the coaching staff but he's unproven as a coach in his own right and I'd like to see if he has the ability to coach a fluid brand of rugby. The game has moved on from when he played and the big packs can't dominate a game like they used to.

I'd certainly be looking outside Ireland and certainly not in O'Sullivan's direction.

Lapsed Catholic

Would agree with Jedwardian. McGahan doing a fine job. Saint Declan walked away to the Ireland job and left the team in disarray. He inherited his initial team of Claw, Foley and co. He developed very little young talent during his time as head coach. He lost both the '00 and '02 HC finals through bad, conserative selection and a fear of change.

McGahan on the other hand has developed and encouraged a bevy of young talent as was mentioned above. Unfortunately RL has had a huge influence on RU over the last decade or so. The main emphasis is now on defence as opposed to attacking. McGahan may have been trying to bring Munsters defence into line with current thinking, as negative as it may be.


Dean Richards is damaged goods following the Bloodgate affair with Quins. Jim Williams is not a head coach at the level that Munster require.

Chucky the tree

I presume Blackbeard meants Robbie Deans since he referenced Austrialia's world cup? I could only imagine the massive up roar hiring Dean richards as Munster head coach after bloodgate. :pac:

Amazotheamazing

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

He tried to force a bastardised form of Rugby League shít upon us and hired incompetent backs and forwards coaches to follow his plan. He is also the man who allowed us to go seasons without a scrum coach and this was only addressed when we had one of the worst scrums in the Magners, never mind the HC.

It was the IRFU who stopped us getting a scrum coach, McGahan wanted one far earlier than we were allowed get McCarthy. The real improvement in our scrum isn't just the signing of Botha, it's that we were able to offload Buckley. We've gone from a fairly weak scrummager to one of the best tightheads in the Pro12.

Also, the rugby league thing only holds true of the last two seasons, in 2009 we were actually pretty good to watch and that was Holland's first season. looking back, I can't help but feel Tipoki was a massive loss, brains-wise. It's also worth remembering we jettisoned the league stuff when we had a fit Jones playing fullback and Barnes at 13 last season. The lateral crap is as much a reflection of the limitation of guys like Hurley, Murphy and Mafi than anything else. No amount of coaching, imo, would make Mafi a playmaker or give either Murphy or Hurley the extra pace they need to be better backs. And, for all the praise Howlett gets, he's always been a finisher, not a creator like Tipoki. I'd high hopes Barnes could be the new brains in our backline but he's had an indifferent enough season, when fit, so far.

However, anyhow McGahan isn't paid to make us play beautiful rugby, it's to make us play winning rugby. Last season, Munster had the best win/loss ratio of any pro rugby team in the top tiers in Europe.

its_phil

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I could only imagine the massive up roar hiring Dean richards as Munster head coach after bloodgate. :pac:

Sure he'd be given a heros welcome. Did he not try cheating Leinster out of a Heineken Cup final?! :P

JustinDee

Lapsed Catholic wrote: »

Unfortunately RL has had a huge influence on RU over the last decade or so. The main emphasis is now on defence as opposed to attacking

A myth that people latch on to for one reason or another. Despite allegedly being a defensive game, lines of defence do in fact need to be breached. This is done by a variety of ways such as the offload draw, off the cuff cross and dummy runners, set-pieces moves, kick passes, 'up and unders' etc.
If it was truly defensive game, there would be no tries. A defensive game plan would entail retention then kicking for field position. Sound familiar?

There's a joke I find funny but sometimes its apt: Webb Ellis invented rugby league when he picked up the ball and ran. Had he invented rugby union, he would have kicked it off the stands.

Rugby league defence coaches are not just involved with formulating non-possession tactics but also in the attacking playbook.
The most significant effect rugby league brought to the table was professionalism. Defensiveness was already rife in rugby union.

I think people have conveniently short memories, particularly with the circumstances and formbook of coaches and players.

PhatPiggins

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Although I have lost a bit of respect for him since Australia's showing at the WC, Jim Williams would be a great man to get in as head coach.

.

Two points:

1.You realise that Jim Williams is the forwards coach for Australia

2.Did you see the quarter final against SA? That was a coaching miracle (plus Pocock who's a miracle full stop)

bamboozle

EOS and Foley would do a great job at Munster, Munster are crying out for a functioning backline and EOS is just the man to provide that.

EOS has a lot to offer still, i'm sure he'd bring Niall O'Donovan and recently resigned england defence coach Mike Ford into his backroom staff.

buck65

Game has moved on from Eddie's style I think.

profitius

I wouldn't be in favour of EOS taking over. He is a very good coach but comes with baggage.

Jim Williams has been let go by Australia. Their forwards were abysmal during the world cup and he has never proven himself as a head coach. No way would I go for him.

Connor O'Shea would be the top candidate for me. Harlequins are playing brilliant rugby and they are outperforming the sum of their parts.

profitius

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Also, the rugby league thing only holds true of the last two seasons, in 2009 we were actually pretty good to watch and that was Holland's first season. looking back, I can't help but feel Tipoki was a massive loss, brains-wise. It's also worth remembering we jettisoned the league stuff when we had a fit Jones playing fullback and Barnes at 13 last season. The lateral crap is as much a reflection of the limitation of guys like Hurley, Murphy and Mafi than anything else. No amount of coaching, imo, would make Mafi a playmaker or give either Murphy or Hurley the extra pace they need to be better backs. And, for all the praise Howlett gets, he's always been a finisher, not a creator like Tipoki. I'd high hopes Barnes could be the new brains in our backline but he's had an indifferent enough season, when fit, so far.

However, anyhow McGahan isn't paid to make us play beautiful rugby, it's to make us play winning rugby. Last season, Munster had the best win/loss ratio of any pro rugby team in the top tiers in Europe.

I have to disagree with that. Munsters back play has been very poor. Jason Holland has so far seemed out of his depth in his role. Theres no lines of running, no switch passes, players recieve the ball standing still.

Coaches can make a massive difference. Look at Leinsters attacking play since Joe Schmidt came in. He transformed them.

If the players are the problem then why are they still there? McGahan has had 3 years to get rid of them.

Lapsed Catholic

JustinDee wrote: »

A myth that people latch on to for one reason or another. Despite allegedly being a defensive game, lines of defence do in fact need to be breached. This is done by a variety of ways such as the offload draw, off the cuff cross and dummy runners, set-pieces moves, kick passes, 'up and unders' etc.
If it was truly defensive game, there would be no tries. A defensive game plan would entail retention then kicking for field position. Sound familiar?

There's a joke I find funny but sometimes its apt: Webb Ellis invented rugby league when he picked up the ball and ran. Had he invented rugby union, he would have kicked it off the stands.

Rugby league defence coaches are not just involved with formulating non-possession tactics but also in the attacking playbook.
The most significant effect rugby league brought to the table was professionalism. Defensiveness was already rife in rugby union.

I think people have conveniently short memories, particularly with the circumstances and formbook of coaches and players.

I never said that RL was a defensive sport. RU has imported, almost exclusively, RL defence coaches. Which in my opinion is to the detriment of RU. 13 men speard across the field in a defensive line cover less ground than 15 doing the very same thing, result, a brick wall. RU has had to change its attack formations to breach the wall of defence, its centres have gone from fleet footed footballers to very large crashball merchants. The ball skills have been reduced significantly with more and more players relying on pre ordained "plays" and being muscle bound. The current exceptions are Leinster and Toulouse. BOD said on the TV during the game v Bath that Schmidt wanted them to be the best passing team in Europe, it shows.

CatFromHue

profitius wrote: »

I wouldn't be in favour of EOS taking over. He is a very good coach but comes with baggage.

Jim Williams has been let go by Australia. Their forwards were abysmal during the world cup and he has never proven himself as a head coach. No way would I go for him.

Connor O'Shea would be the top candidate for me. Harlequins are playing brilliant rugby and they are outperforming the sum of their parts.

What actually is EOS's baggage? When I look at him I see a guy with a lifetime of coaching experience, international and Lions experience, a guy who can get a backline playing, and a guy who doesn't put up with ****.

O Shea is a name that is being mentioned a lot. What people need to remember is that Quins were a very good team under Dean Richards, in 08/09 they were second in the English league and HEC quarter finalists. While he has certainly helped rebuild them it must be remembered he had some very good foundations to work on. Brown, Turner Hall, Monye, Evans, Care, Easter, Robshaw, and Robson all played both the 09 Quarter against Leinster and the 11 Semi against Munster.

profitius

CatFromHue wrote: »

What actually is EOS's baggage? When I look at him I see a guy with a lifetime of coaching experience, international and Lions experience, a guy who can get a backline playing, and a guy who doesn't put up with ****.

He does tend to have personality clashes. Most people wanted him removed from the Ireland job a few years ago so he is not perfect.

CatFromHue

profitius wrote: »

He does tend to have personality clashes. Most people wanted him removed from the Ireland job a few years ago so he is not perfect.

Who did he have a personality clash with?

I know he's not perfect but no one is. Sure even BOD can't finish off a 3 on 2!

Junior

Eddie's biggest flaws I think are trust and delegation. He trust's no-one so delegates nothing. He didn't trust Kidney (in the irish setup) because he saw him as a threat and possible successor and eventually squeezed him out.

Would he take orders ? Would he do the best for team or himself and his career ? I don't know...

CatFromHue

Junior wrote: »

Eddie's biggest flaws I think are trust and delegation. He trust's no-one so delegates nothing. He didn't trust Kidney (in the irish setup) because he saw him as a threat and possible successor and eventually squeezed him out.

Would he take orders ? Would he do the best for team or himself and his career ? I don't know...

Eh he brought in a defense coach, Mike Ford I think it might have been, and kept with him even though it was taking the players longer than expected to perform in such a defensive system. The Irish players at the time as far as I know didn't have defensive coaches in the provinces so this was brand new to them. I think this alone proves he trusts and delegates without any problem.

I don't think it was a case of not trusting Kidney. EOS was the backs coach and Kidney was brought in to help with the backs coaching, Kidney wasn't needed.

JustinDee

Lapsed Catholic wrote: »

I never said that RL was a defensive sport. RU has imported, almost exclusively, RL defence coaches. Which in my opinion is to the detriment of RU.
13 men speard across the field in a defensive line cover less ground than 15 doing the very same thing, result, a brick wall

Regardless, the defensive line still needs to be picked open. A defensive line in rugby league is 10m back. This more than compensates for the alleged advantage you bring up of two less defenders on-field. As you probably know, it is much easier to defend when given space to do so.

As for the condition and physique of a player these days, this is more to do with professionalism than anything else. Players are fulltime and professionally conditioned and obviously bigger. The days of hitting the turps the night before a game, having a halftime ciggie and a quick swig of brandy are long gone.

Lapsed Catholic wrote: »

RU has had to change its attack formations to breach the wall of defence, its centres have gone from fleet footed footballers to very large crashball merchants

Again, a consequence of professionalism, not an influence of rugby league. Ever hear of Alfie Langer? Andrew Walker? Joey Johns? Billy Slater? Wally Lewis? Benji Marshall? Not exactly the biggest players ever to take a field. Meanwhile there have been beefy centres in rugby union across both eras in the 80s and 90s such as (Walter) Little, (Jason) Little, Joe Stanley, Irwin, Du Plessis, Simms.

Lapsed Catholic wrote: »

The ball skills have been reduced significantly with more and more players relying on pre ordained "plays" and being muscle bound

If anything, rugby league promotes better ball skills from players, not worse and for a successful team, requires more off the cuff gameplay in the form of offloads and intentional kicks (as opposed to hoofing for territory).

JustinDee

profitius wrote: »

Jim Williams has been let go by Australia

When did this happen??

OTHP

Lapsed Catholic wrote: »

Would agree with Jedwardian. McGahan doing a fine job. Saint Declan walked away to the Ireland job and left the team in disarray. He inherited his initial team of Claw, Foley and co. He developed very little young talent during his time as head coach. He lost both the '00 and '02 HC finals through bad, conserative selection and a fear of change.

McGahan on the other hand has developed and encouraged a bevy of young talent as was mentioned above. Unfortunately RL has had a huge influence on RU over the last decade or so. The main emphasis is now on defence as opposed to attacking. McGahan may have been trying to bring Munsters defence into line with current thinking, as negative as it may be.


Dean Richards is damaged goods following the Bloodgate affair with Quins. Jim Williams is not a head coach at the level that Munster require.

Kidney developed very little young talent during his time? A common and ill informed view. Would be interested to know who brought through Horan, Hayes, Stringer, ROG, Wally, Quinny, Horan, DOC, POC, Dowling, Earls, TOL, Hurley etc?

The fact is Gaffney inherited the team and failed to take them on. It took Kidneys return to move onto the next level.

CatFromHue

JustinDee wrote: »

When did this happen??

Dunno about being let go but he is leaving at the end of his contract.

---

The Australian Rugby Union has announced that assistant coach Jim Williams is leaving the Wallabies after the completion of his contract.

Williams, who played in fourteen Tests as a loose forward for the Wallabies, has been an assistant to head coach Robbie Deans since 2008 and was the forwards coach for Australia's squad which won a hard-fought bronze medal against Wales at the RWC in New Zealand in October.

Peter Harding, the strength and conditioning coach over the same period, was also leaving the ARU because his deal had ended, general manager of high performance David Nucifora.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_7392534,00.html

Lapsed Catholic

OTHP wrote: »

Kidney developed very little young talent during his time? A common and ill informed view. Would be interested to know who brought through Horan, Hayes, Stringer, ROG, Wally, Quinny, Horan, DOC, POC, Dowling, Earls, TOL, Hurley etc?

The fact is Gaffney inherited the team and failed to take them on. It took Kidneys return to move onto the next level.

It may be a common view but one that is well informed.

Horan, Hayes, Stringer, RoG, Wallace, Quinlan, DOC, POC all played in the AIL before Munster beckoned. While their skills were certainly improved by professional training they all benefited from club coaching. Dowling was introduced to Munster by Mick Galwey who had coached him at Shannon. Kidney did not develop him. Earls was a schools star with St.Munchins and played AIL with Thomond and Garryowen. His breakthrough season was 08/09 when Kidney had left for the Ireland job. I will give DK credit for Hurley and TOL.

GerM

OTHP wrote: »

Kidney developed very little young talent during his time? A common and ill informed view. Would be interested to know who brought through Horan, Hayes, Stringer, ROG, Wally, Quinny, Horan, DOC, POC, Dowling, Earls, TOL, Hurley etc?

The fact is Gaffney inherited the team and failed to take them on. It took Kidneys return to move onto the next level.

Quinlan, Wallace, ROG and Hayes were Munster players on Kidney's arrival. Dowling was a 23 year old playing well with Shannon brought in from his old buddy MG. Earls, the single most naturally gifted finisher in Irish rugby since Simon Geoghegan, never got a single start under Kidney. In the early days of "professionalism" in this country, the provinces still operated as amateur representative sides essentially. The season lasted about 3 months and the players developed at their AIL clubs in reality. Giving DK credit for developing the likes of POC, Horan and O'Callaghan? We may as well say Mike Ruddock is responsible for BOD, D'Arcy and Horgan.

Player development and professionalism only really became a reality with the introduction of the Celtic League. McGahan gets dogs abuse but he inherited a dog's dinner of a system that was 3 years behind his competitors systems and he took the blame. He initially was slow to make changes but he identified that the team was ageing and coming apart and is trying to change things. You can now see players coming through that are talented and have the goods to play HEC rugby. POM, Zebo, Butler, Sherry all have the ability to go to great things. If they were, by a stroke of bad luck, born 5 years earlier I reckon they'd be in their mid-twenties with a handful of appearances and thoughts of what could have been. McGahan deserves credit for what he has done but very few will ever give him that due to the lack of success in the HEC. He has brought through many players for Munster and gone back to the AIL and the development players and rescued the likes of Coughlan and Varley.

Kidney's strength is organising and focussing on a goal and motivating his people to achieve that. It's not development and never has been.

Benny Cake

The credit for development in the past few years really goes to the respective academies. Head coaches can come and go & for the most part will pick the best squad available to them. Schmidt in particular has been dealt an excellent hand thanks to the work going on in the Leinster academy. Munster is playing catchup and will need to close the gap quickly to to cope with the upcoming change in NIQ rules...

AtItAllDayRef

Lapsed Catholic wrote: »

It may be a common view but one that is well informed.

Horan, Hayes, Stringer, RoG, Wallace, Quinlan, DOC, POC all played in the AIL before Munster beckoned. While their skills were certainly improved by professional training they all benefited from club coaching. Dowling was introduced to Munster by Mick Galwey who had coached him at Shannon. Kidney did not develop him. Earls was a schools star with St.Munchins and played AIL with Thomond and Garryowen. His breakthrough season was 08/09 when Kidney had left for the Ireland job. I will give DK credit for Hurley and TOL.

Then all credit for development must go to the junior clubs and schools not the academies or the coaches of the provinces if you are going to credit the AIL and state Earls as a schools star? There is a big difference between an AIL or schools player and getting to HEC level which IMO gives credit to the coaches in charge. Getting some players to that level ie Earls is a lot easier than someone like Dowling.

Earls was named in the HEC Final 22 man squad in 2008 and would have played more in that season if it wasn't for injury.

Brian

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I wonder how Howlett would work as a back's coach? Hopefully he takes a hands-on role with the backs while he is rehabilitating for the rest of the season, and we can see how it goes. It may be a bit of jobs for the boys but, he is one man I don't want to see be allowed leave the system.

I would expect Doug to head home ASAP.