SPL to pilot safe standing areas

pistolpetes11

Just heard it on SSN now.


http://www.scotprem.com/content/default.asp?page=s2&newsid=10907



SPL Statement: Rule Changes
At today’s SPL General Meeting, clubs approved changes to SPL rules on safe standing and Unacceptable Conduct.

The SPL Board will now have the ability to approve requests from clubs to pilot safe standing areas for use in Clydesdale Bank Premier League matches.

The amendments to the existing Unacceptable Conduct rules were put forward following discussions within the Joint Action Group and are part of football’s commitment to protect and maintain the good reputation of the game in Scotland.

The definition of “Unacceptable Conduct” within the SPL Rules has been extended to include ‘using words, conduct or displaying any writing or other thing which indicates support for, or affiliation to, or celebration of, or opposition to an organisation proscribed in terms of the Terrorism Act 2000’.

A number of amendments to the accompanying guidance notes which set out the minimum standards expected of SPL clubs in relation to tackling Unacceptable Conduct will also be introduced.

Where a charge is to be laid that a club has not met the requirements of the Unacceptable Conduct rules, the case will be heard by an Independent Commission.

Neil Doncaster, Chief Executive of the SPL, said: “Since I joined the SPL in 2009, there has been widespread support amongst fans to re-introduce safe standing areas. I am delighted that we have been able to respond positively to supporters’ views on improving the match day experience.

“Changes to our rules on Unacceptable Conduct ‘raise the bar’ in terms of what is expected of clubs and shows our clubs are committed to playing their part in tackling Unacceptable Conduct.”

Further information

Safe Standing

Approval for safe standing areas will also be required from local Safety Committees and the Police.

Unacceptable Conduct

The amendments to the accompanying guidance notes will place requirements on SPL clubs to:

– Bring Unacceptable Conduct to the attention of the Match Commander;

– Take reasonably practical steps, including consultation with police, to identify those who engage in Unacceptable Conduct;

– Once identified, to apply proportionate sanctions against a supporter, or person exercising function for a club (other than as an official or an employee) who engages in Unacceptable Conduct;

– Include requirements in all SPL clubs’ match ticket conditions, season ticket conditions and in Ground Regulations that supporters must adhere to a Fans Charter/Code of Conduct (once finalised);

– submit interim and annual reports to the SPL Secretary detailing actions taken to prevent Unacceptable Conduct by supporters and what steps have been taken to address Unacceptable Conduct that does occur;

– Maintain records of requests for police assistance, and or police interventions in relation to incidents of Unacceptable Conduct and the responses given.

Any Independent Commission will be chaired by an advocate or solicitor of at least ten years standing.

Should a club be found to have failed to meet the requirements of the Unacceptable Conduct rules, the Independent Commission will have the power to apply a wide range of sanctions, including warnings, fines, annulment of results, points deductions, prohibitions from supporters attending matches and playing of matches behind closed doors or at other venues, amongst others.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Excellent news, hopefully the PL follow suit. It would drastically improve the atmosphere of almost every ground, while also reducing ticket prices.

pistolpetes11

THFC wrote: »

Excellent news, hopefully the PL follow suit. It would drastically improve the atmosphere of almost every ground, while also reducing ticket prices.

It would be a brilliant move , get a lot more people at games and at a lot keener price.

Although I hope the PL follow suit I really hope UEFA have a look at there restrictions too, being a Chelsea man the amount of seats we loose on UCL night is stupid.

Lawrence1895

It works in Germany, so why shouldn't it work in the SPL or EPL?

Pride Fighter

There is a fear amongst those in the English FA of terracing since Hillsborough. It is extremely understandable as it was a horrific tragedy.

However, I would welcome this. Safe terracing is possible as proven in Germany. Several Bundesliga 1 and 2 clubs have terracing in their ground, properly designed and stewarded. Borussia Dortmund is a brilliant example of how its done on a large scale. The ground holds just under 70k with seats installed for International matches when Germany is involved, but for club games they take out the seats and put in terracing and the attendance goes up over 10k.

I think this is a great idea.

GavRedKing

hopefully it turns out to be a sucess as it could set the blue print for EPL teams to re-introduce it.

if its montiored, controlled and policed properly I dont see a problem with it.

Lawrence1895

Pride Fighter wrote: »

There is a fear amongst those in the English FA of terracing since Hillsborough. It is extremely understandable as it was a horrific tragedy.

However, I would welcome this. Safe terracing is possible as proven in Germany. Several Bundesliga 1 and 2 clubs have terracing in their ground, properly designed and stewarded. Borussia Dortmund is a brilliant example of how its done on a large scale. The ground holds just under 70k with seats installed for International matches when Germany is involved, but for club games they take out the seats and put in terracing and the attendance goes up over 10k.

I think this is a great idea.

The attendance in Bundesliga matches is just under 83000, with 28000 on the Suedtribuene, which makes it the biggest standing area in Europe.

But I'm a bit concerned, that the away sections will be left out. Not for security reasons alone, but also to rip off away supporters :mad:

tommyhaas

I think safe standing and by extension cheaper tickets is the only way that many Clubs can allow the traditional fan base of the club go and see matches.
It's a disgrace that member of communities that have traditionally stood on the terrace of their local club have been priced out it in recent years.

Clubs should represent their communities first and foremost IMO and safe standing will allow local kids the opportunity to go and see their club, while the club's will be able to achieve a healthy balance between cheap tickets and high match day revenues

pistolpetes11

Lars1916 wrote: »

The attendance in Bundesliga matches is just under 83000, with 28000 on the Suedtribuene, which makes it the biggest standing area in Europe.

But I'm a bit concerned, that the away sections will be left out. Not for security reasons alone, but also to rip off away supporters :mad:

Well if it comes to it ,

It would make more sense to have 20,000 people 20-25 quid a head than 8,000 paying 40 quid a head,

Not only would the revenue slightly increase but matchday sales of Food,Drink, Merchandise would rocket ,

I could just imagine it in a ground like Old Trafford how many people you fit in there with standing areas.

I know Chelsea's top league attendance was 82,905 for a league game V Arsenal back in 1935 and in 45 they had over 100,000 in for a game against FC Dynamo Moscow.

Health and safety would not of been top of the agenda back then either,

A lot has changed since then and the footfall of the ground has changed an awful lot since then , but I would say Chelsea could get another 10-20 K people into the ground if done correctly.

This would be massive for the like of Liverpool ,Spurs, Fulham, basically any stadium when expansion is not really realistic

chopperbyrne

pistolpetes11 wrote: »

This would be massive for the like of Liverpool ,Spurs, Fulham, basically any stadium when expansion is not really realistic

Can't see Liverpool jumping on board this for some reason...

pistolpetes11

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Can't see Liverpool jumping on board this for some reason...

We live in a different world these days , cant see that type of event ever happening again in England.

Helix

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Can't see Liverpool jumping on board this for some reason...

why not? hilsborough wasnt caused by standing, it was caused by the systems that were supposed to monitor standing

Dotrel

It's funny that the idea of returning to terraces is coinciding with a global recession. In the 90's and 00's we saw many stadia turned from crumbling concrete heaps into playthings for the rich and corporate elite. Now watch this space as the premium level at Lansdowne Road is turned into a terrace.

VW 1

But Hillsborough wasn't down to exclusively having a terrace where people stood. It was down to miscommunication between the stewards. Gates being closed. A fence between the stand and the pitch.

Basically a myriad of reasons that all culminated to the horrible tragedy, which should have been avoided.

With modern technology, a little foresight, and a lot of planning, there is no reason why the return to terracing shouldn't be embraced by all clubs in the nation, in a safe manner.

tommyhaas

Dotrel wrote: »

It's funny that the idea of returning to terraces is coinciding with a global recession. In the 90's and 00's we saw many stadia turned from crumbling concrete heaps into playthings for the rich and corporate elite. Now watch this space as the premium level at Lansdowne Road is turned into a terrace.

The regulations stipulated that terracing had to go in the wake of the Taylor report. I think it was 1994 that it had to be implemented by. That was prior to football becoming the business it is now, and so I think any correlation between this and the economic cycle is purely coincidental. That's not to say that all seater stadium's did not help fuel the change in football, just that that wasn't their purpose

KeithAFC

Good news.

Dotrel

tommyhaas wrote: »

The regulations stipulated that terracing had to go in the wake of the Taylor report. I think it was 1994 that it had to be implemented by. That was prior to football becoming the business it is now, and so I think any correlation between this and the economic cycle is purely coincidental. That's not to say that all seater stadium's did not help fuel the change in football, just that that wasn't their purpose

I think football has always followed trends set in America. Even in the 70's and 80's the Americans had all seater stadiums with corporate areas and a product aimed the wealthier sections of society. TV was big and the players were getting paid relatively huge amounts. It was big money. The English and others wanted similar and started to copy the format.

Yeah it's a coincidence that both economic and taylor coincided but I reckon the return to terraces now might be in part influenced by the current economic climate. Might as well sell X amount of area in the ground to 2or3 people for a total of £Y as to try sell X to 1 person for £Y who can't / doesn't want to pay for it anymore.

Things are only going to get worse for punters and you can already see the half empty stadiums for a lot of prem clubs. Even I can remember a time when ManU couldn't fill a 49k Old Trafford, so there's nothing to say it can't happen to the big boys too.

tommyhaas

Dotrel wrote: »

I think football has always followed trends set in America. Even in the 70's and 80's the Americans had all seater stadiums with corporate areas and a product aimed the wealthier sections of society. TV was big and the players were getting paid relatively huge amounts. It was big money. The English and others wanted similar and started to copy the format.

Yeah it's a coincidence that both economic and taylor coincided but I reckon the return to terraces now might be in part influenced by the current economic climate. Might as well sell X amount of area in the ground to 2or3 people for a total of £Y as to try sell X to 1 person for £Y who can't / doesn't want to pay for it anymore.

Things are only going to get worse for punters and you can already see the half empty stadiums for a lot of prem clubs. Even I can remember a time when ManU couldn't fill a 49k Old Trafford, so there's nothing to say it can't happen to the big boys too.

I reckon though that there's only a minority of clubs that would stand to profit further from safe standing. Liverpool, Utd and Chelsea (I think?) for instance sell out every week, and so safe standing would allow the club to increase the gate and hence the match day revenue (assuming the revenue from increased capacity eclipsed the loss suffered through reduced ticket prices).

However what about clubs like Wigan, Newcastle or Sunderland? They don't sell out and so introducing a standing are would probably mean that many currently paying for seats would change to standing at a lesser price. I'd imagine the lower prices may attract more to the ground, but whether the slight increase in attendance would be sufficient to offset the loss suffered through those changing to cheaper tickets, and the infrastructural costs is debatable

As you said though, attendances are liable to fluctuate with the economy, however I think much of the motivation for a return to standing is coming from fans groups concerned with tickets price and atmosphere primarily

Dotrel

tommyhaas wrote: »

I reckon though that there's only a minority of clubs that would stand to profit further from safe standing. Liverpool, Utd and Chelsea (I think?) for instance sell out every week, and so safe standing would allow the club to increase the gate and hence the match day revenue (assuming the revenue from increased capacity eclipsed the loss suffered through reduced ticket prices).

Why would it automatically increase the revenue? You're presuming a standing ticket will cost the same as an old seat ticket. Has this been suggested/confirmed?

Granted if you could get the existing sitters to stand for the same price and get the additional standers to pay a full price seated ticket then the terrace has an advantage. But I don't see even standing fans willing to do that.

If not then I think a club cares more about the gate reciepts than the actual number of people inside the ground. If Chelsea or Liverpool could raise £2million per game with attendance of 45,000 (all seat + corp) vs £1.9m with 60,000 (terrace + seat + corp) then I don't think they'd care in the slightest about getting a bigger crowd or a better atmosphere inside the ground.

However what about clubs like Wigan, Newcastle or Sunderland? They don't sell out and so introducing a standing are would probably mean that many currently paying for seats would change to standing at a lesser price. I'd imagine the lower prices may attract more to the ground, but whether the slight increase in attendance would be sufficient to offset the loss suffered through those changing to cheaper tickets, and the infrastructural costs is debatable

My point about Wigan/Sunderland or clubs that clearly aren't getting sell-outs is maybe there are people staying away from the games because they don't want to pay whatever the current minimum rate is. A standing ticket for a lower price might entice them into the stadium. Who knows, I don't anyway.

As you said though, attendances are liable to fluctuate with the economy, however I think much of the motivation for a return to standing is coming from fans groups concerned with tickets price and atmosphere primarily

Thing is afaik fans have always wanted terraces for the past 20 years or so and nothing was done for them. I can't see why exactly clubs are suddenly now 'motivated' to return to terraces other than to suit their own pockets.

RoryMac

Interesting article on the plans for the SPL, there won't be an increase in capacity during the trial period anyway but the rail-seats mentioned solve the issue for European games

http://m.stv.tv/sport/football/scottish-premier/celtic/289210-explained-how-safe-standing-would-work-in-scotland/

tommyhaas

Dotrel wrote: »

Why would it automatically increase the revenue? You're presuming a standing ticket will cost the same as an old seat ticket. Has this been suggested/confirmed?

Granted if you could get the existing sitters to stand for the same price and get the additional standers to pay a full price seated ticket then the terrace has an advantage. But I don't see even standing fans willing to do that.

If not then I think a club cares more about the gate reciepts than the actual number of people inside the ground. If Chelsea or Liverpool could raise £2million per game with attendance of 45,000 (all seat + corp) vs £1.9m with 60,000 (terrace + seat + corp) then I don't think they'd care in the slightest about getting a bigger crowd or a better atmosphere inside the ground.

That's exactly what I meant, sorry I explained it poorly. The revenue could be increased as prices are reduced, but attendance's rise sufficiently to make up for this. Take the Kop at Anfield for example. At present it holds about 12,000 at a price of roughly £40 per ticket (I'm ignoring season tickets here). So that's 12,000 x £40 per game generated by the Kop. I would only expect the club to entertain the notion of standing if the standing capacity, at a reasonable price generated a higher figure then the above. There's also the added benefits and costs to be taken into account, such as stewarding, and revenue from food/drink

Dotrel wrote: »

My point about Wigan/Sunderland or clubs that clearly aren't getting sell-outs is maybe there are people staying away from the games because they don't want to pay whatever the current minimum rate is. A standing ticket for a lower price might entice them into the stadium. Who knows, I don't anyway.

Thing is afaik fans have always wanted terraces for the past 20 years or so and nothing was done for them. I can't see why exactly clubs are suddenly now 'motivated' to return to terraces other than to suit their own pockets.

I agree with your above point to an extent, however clubs like Everton for example are currently doing quiet a few offers on tickets (buy one, get ticket for another game at half price etc) and still not selling out the ground, or even improving attendances significantly so while reduced ticket prices would encourage more, they'd have to be significantly reduced to encourage the masses

Regarding the campaign for safe standing over the last 20 years, yea I assume there is something to what your saying. Celtic aside, have any other clubs commented on the possibility?

acquiescefc

Football is different to what it was in 1989. It was a normal Saturday afternoon spectator sport like any other. The policing was done outside the ground and you were penned in like animals. If it kicked off it was usually outside the ground.

Now its dominated by money and glamour,for the Premier League anyway.
I dont think the FA want to go anywhere near the old days, not because of Hillsborough, that will never happen again to that extent,it was caused by bottlenecks on Leppings Lane on the bridge outside and in the tunnel, bad (and lack of) policing decisions and too many people arriving late. Heysel could happen again though, that was caused by the supporters inside the ground. The FA will never let anything like that happen.

If it does get approved itll be nothing like the old days,the fences are gone, the hatred of the opposition is still there, its just managed better now with better technology, more police and stewarding inside the ground, more health and safety and harsher penalties for offenders.

As to bringing the prices down,i dont think itll make a difference as the areas will be so small. Again it depends on the size of the area. Clubs outside the Prem need to increase revenue to survive. More bums on seats(or stood) spend more in the shop/bars etc but i just dont see it.

Ive been going to Hillsborough(Owls fan) since 1980 and other grounds and its a different game nowadays and just cant see it happening on a scale that ppl imagine before the Taylor report.

If im wrong so be it, id love to stand on the Kop at Hillsborough again with 40,000 people. 28,000 on Saturday to see an 8 goal thriller was pretty exciting but itll never be the same.

Dotrel

Actually while we're on the subject here's a fun little item google streetview has. Panorama pitchside views from inside a lot of the top german stadiums.

Here's the biggest terrace in Europe.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Borussia+Dortmund,+Rheinlanddamm,+Dortmund,+Germany&hl=en&ll=51.491965,7.451906&spn=0.004562,0.011362&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=46.946584,93.076172&vpsrc=6&hq=Borussia+Dortmund,&hnear=Rheinlanddamm,+Dortmund,+Germany&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=51.49203,7.451677&panoid=rqxiSE3HLmDp-jOHXVYTzQ&cbp=12,168.6,,0,-15.47

Rotate 180 degrees to see that the fences are back.

Lawrence1895

Dotrel wrote: »

Actually while we're on the subject here's a fun little item google streetview has. Panorama pitchside views from inside a lot of the top german stadiums.

Here's the biggest terrace in Europe.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Borussia+Dortmund,+Rheinlanddamm,+Dortmund,+Germany&hl=en&ll=51.491965,7.451906&spn=0.004562,0.011362&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=46.946584,93.076172&vpsrc=6&hq=Borussia+Dortmund,&hnear=Rheinlanddamm,+Dortmund,+Germany&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=51.49203,7.451677&panoid=rqxiSE3HLmDp-jOHXVYTzQ&cbp=12,168.6,,0,-15.47

Rotate 180 degrees to see that the fences are back.

There was always a fence in front of the Suedtribuene, they never removed it

The_Kew_Tour

Love to see standing back in Stadiums.

paddy978

On Liverpool, can't see the families of the Hillsborough victims being supportive of this, and I hope their views are respected, regardless of whether it was a cause or not.