Should Computer Programming be brought into Second Level?

Not wanting to de-rail another thread, I wanted to go into that here.

Now forget about whether it can, I think that it should. Put it in with the Maths syllabus and get everyone aware of how those programs in their Xboxes and iPhones work.

byhookorbycrook

Am using Scratch for second life with primary kids.I have used sploder for the younger ones.

Nolanger

Great idea, let's put kids off computer programming for life just like we turn them off Irish and maths.

strangel00p

Education system over here is a mess as it is. Far too many of these extra subjects in the curriculum when there should be greater emphasis on the core subjects. English, maths and total fluency in a foreign language would be of greater benefit to school leavers.

If they want to do do computer programming then go to college.

byhookorbycrook

Modern languages pilot scheme has just been cut for primary. Like all subjects, it's how you teach it.

Nolanger

strangel00p wrote: »

If they want to do do computer programming then go to college.

Nah, learn yourself as a hobby. That's what the IT companies want, self learners. People who learn one programming language but can pick up another one easily.

dlofnep

As a choice subject, absolutely. It could give someone a good headstart before beginning college. When I went to college studying programming, I already had a decent background in it so it came easy to me. But a few of my friends had no prior exposure, and simply couldn't keep up with the content over the 4 years. I think if they had a decent grounding in programming beforehand, it would have come much easier to them..

I think web-development would be a good alternative also - with some backend stuff with PHP & MySQL. There are more than enough jobless IT graduates who would be more than capable of teaching programming at an introductory level to 2nd level students.

Kefa

A common complaint would be:

There is no money and no teachers with the knowledge available to implement this.

False. As dlofnep says:

dlofnep wrote: »

There are more than enough jobless IT graduates who would be more than capable of teaching programming at an introductory level to 2nd level students.

Let them keep their Jobseekers payment in exchange for teaching, problem solved.


Alternatively:

36 Resources To Help You Teach Kids Programming

http://www.lero.ie/educationoutreach/secondlevel

http://scratch.ie/

http://www.csis.ul.ie/cybercamp/

http://coderdojo.com/

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strangel00p wrote: »

Education system over here is a mess as it is. Far too many of these extra subjects in the curriculum when there should be greater emphasis on the core subjects. English, maths and total fluency in a foreign language would be of greater benefit to school leavers.

I fail to see the validity of this argument. Agreed, students should do English, Maths and a language, but after those three subjects, what do want them to do?

If English, Maths and a language were compulsory plus four optional subjects from a choice of 50, you'd still only have to do four. It doesn't eat into English/Maths/Language teaching time.

Defiler Of The Coffin

A good scripting language like Python should be taught as part of physics or another science discipline. If we are serious about building this 'knowledge economy' we have to do more than pay it lip service.

I don't see how it would be practical to teach it as a stand-alone module but it certainly should be integrated into certain subjects. Kids these days are almost IT-literate before they can walk, it shouldn't be a struggle for most of them.

Get them to think logically and who knows, it might even help raise the standard of maths

byhookorbycrook

I am of an age that learnt cobol in secondary, waste of time. We need to teach attitude and problem solving,thinking skills and being at ease with IT

evolving_doors

ya why not, we did a bit of basic when I was in school, didn't really interest me but it was a lesson in logic...brother and a few of his friends went on to be programmers,,, even though he probably would have gone on to do it anyway it did show him that he was good at something before filing in the CAO...

Defiler Of The Coffin

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I am of an age that learnt cobol in secondary, waste of time. We need to teach attitude and problem solving,thinking skills and being at ease with IT

Why not teach these things through computer programming?

shanered

Think it would be great idea.

dlofnep

Kefa wrote: »

Let them keep their Jobseekers payment in exchange for teaching, problem solved.

Or, pay them the average teaching wage like they would deserve?

byhookorbycrook

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

Why not teach these things through computer programming?

I hope that's what I'm doing through Scratch, Sploder,Misson V and Squeakland.

Kefa

dlofnep wrote: »

Or, pay them the average teaching wage like they would deserve?

Yes, if it was actually brought in as a proper subject.

dambarude

I think it should be included in a separate IT subject, but not as a full subject on its own. I think the lack of an IT subject is a glaring hole in the LC as it stands.

spurious

What would you have it replace?

Nolanger

FÁS programming courses require a test before one can start. Most entry-level programming jobs require an aptitude test. Not everyone will pass these tests. So not all kids are suited to programming. Teaching this stuff in schools would only suit the brighter pupils.

dlofnep

Nolanger wrote: »

FÁS programming courses require a test before one can start. Most entry-level programming jobs require an aptitude test. Not everyone will pass these tests. So not all kids are suited to programming. Teaching this stuff in schools would only suit the brighter pupils.

No, it wouldn't. Some of the brightest people I know could never nail programming. It's not everything to do with intelligence, and has far more to do with enjoying the subject and doing stuff of your own accord. One of the best programmers in my class in college failed programming in first year, and was only average in most subjects - he knuckled down, started coding small projects at home and went on to become one of the best, if not the best programmer in the class - all because he enjoyed the topic and put the time into using it and learning it.

Telling students that they don't have the aptitude for programming before they even try it is disgusting.

dambarude

spurious wrote: »

What would you have it replace?

Nothing.

Of course it probably won't happen for a decade due to the direction the ed. system is going in with cutbacks.

spurious

dambarude wrote: »

Nothing.

Of course it probably won't happen for a decade due to the direction the ed. system is going in with cutbacks.

True.
Nothing that costs in equipment or retraining will have anything spent on it.

Unless of course, the UK changes direction, in which case we will follow as usual (fifteen years later).

rainbowtrout

I teach programming to PLC students. I brought it into our school 3 years ago. I normally have a small group for the subject but most have gotten on fine. Like maths it is the type of thing that needs to be practiced. The students that struggle with it tend to be the ones that have poor attendance. Of course adult education is a little different from second level, so it's hard to say how it would work at second level.

Ideally for it to work, I think students would have to have plenty of time allocated to it or have access to software at home. Now plenty of microsoft products are available free (Microsoft Visual C++, Visual C# etc) so getting the software wouldn't be a huge problem. It would just be that bit harder to implement.

While I don't see it coming into schools for many years, if this new Junior Cert program goes ahead in a couple of years, and we are allowed devise new programs for the short courses I would like to devise a program for software development/programming.

I think students need to have patience and be willing to practice. I'm doing a Masters in Software Engineering at the moment, and I'm really enjoying it.

dambarude

spurious wrote: »

True.
Nothing that costs in equipment or retraining will have anything spent on it.

Unless of course, the UK changes direction, in which case we will follow as usual (fifteen years later).

They invested fairly heavily (well it would appear so anyway) in DCG over the last few years. Most schools I know had to be equipped with 24 or more PCs, and in some cases new drawing boards/desks. There is a very sizable chunk of IT in the subject now, and seems to be pretty up to date.

Had the rollout of the new syllabus been delayed it's until the recession really hit it's likely it would never have happened. AFAIK there's a whole new Construction Studies syllabus (Architectural Technology?) that was ready to go until the stoppers were put on funding.

Subjects like Accounting are in the dark ages without at least some IT component. I'm not saying MS Excel should replace all workings, that would have to come to.

gabbytheking

Definitely!!! I can't see why electronics with boolean algebra, java and html couldn't be thought to 5th/6th years as an optional subject much like woodwork or home economics. 20 computers suitable for this could be purchased for as little as 3k if not even cheaper by donations from local business and recycling centres. Ireland one time passed down books for year on year can't see why they can't do this sort again and get some pride and common sense back in our communities. The funny thing the syllabus never changes but books change almost every 3 years!!

Would you believe digital circuits are on the Construction Studies course and most books don't even cover it. Its so stupid!! Not to worry I'm sure intel and Analogue electronics would be much more impressed by someone who can hand make a sideboard! A process which costs well in excess of the cost of maintaining a non networked computer!!

gabbytheking

rainbowtrout wrote: »

(Microsoft Visual C++, Visual C# etc) so getting the software wouldn't be a huge problem. It would just be that bit harder to implement.

Or Java which in most cases these days is more widely required and used especially with the app revolution. SUN software is also free. SQL only requires Open office or Access plus some powerful databases are open source.

I would imagine a practical course with a language like Java or C++ with a:

• 2 hour practical computing exam on programming
• A design project designing a Website with jscript/ASP depending on the language of choice with SQL Database commands all with a Project Portfolio

A a very similar layout to the construction course with 1 practical exam 1 project and 1 final educational exam. Overall I personally would allocate 20% and 30% rsp to these tasks.

On top of that practical element an educational course containing:

• 50% Java and HTML
• 30% Boolean and electronics
• 20% SQL and databases.

I could almost write the exam paper now

• 2 Java Questions
• 1 HTML Question something to do with project
• 2 Boolean Digital Circut Question
• 1 SQL
• 1 Normalisation and databses question

Do 5 questions
All pretty basic of course.

I would imagine the course layout would be 2 practical classes and 2 classroom classes per week with 4 classroom for the last 2 months when the practical project is complete. What do you think? I have thought alot about this in the past few years all the politicians thought I was mad sitting in their ivory towers in Dublin!!! Every TD got it on the door