Occupy Egypt being evicted. Warning: Extreme Violence.

DeVore

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iboFV-yeTE

I know we have a policy of discussion rather then just dissemination but I really don't know what to say after watching that. I'm pretty hardcore when it comes to violent images after all these years on Boards. I'm not easily shocked but this shocked me to silence. (Seriously, dont watch it if you are easily upset). Theres no blood but man, I'm sure some of those people didnt survive.

Now you can blame the protesters (Permabear, what you think of this?) or you can blame the Muslims or the army or the old regime. The point is, they're is no more law in Egypt if this is the level its gone to. No protester no matter what they have done, no matter how many stones they might throw deserves this.

There is no "trick of editing" that could have been pulled to make this "look worse" than it is. I have the funniest feeling that between the EU financial crisis, the polarisation of America and Arab Spring we are one "event" away from anarchy.

Sorry I cant add more. I will in time but I'm just sickened and in shock from that.

DeV.

Jonny7

"Occupy Egypt"? bit of a naive comparison.

These people have been fighting and dying in their thousands all across Middle East/North Africa for their basic rights and freedom against the decades long rule of dictators and brutal regimes - they aren't a bunch of students/etc camped in a park with a myriad of first world problems who get to go home to mummy and daddy after.

passive

I don't think Dev named them... https://twitter.com/Selnadeem "Occupycabinet" seems to be the tag in use... Pointing out what's going on there, whatever term or hashtag he used, doesn't represent an endorsement of all the other occupy movements.

So... Bit of a naive, irrelevant, pointless input.

Sunnyisland

The overt use of force, caught on TV and activist cameras, is likely a sign that the generals who took power after the February ouster of Hosni Mubarak are confident that the Egyptian public is on its side after two rounds of widely acclaimed parliament elections, that Islamist parties winning the vote will stay out of the fight while pro-democracy protesters become more isolated.I am sure the muslim brotherhood and the Islamist Salafis will be quite happy to see the protests crushed while at the same time concentrate on getting themselfs into even more powerful positions within goverment.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

MajorMax

Maybe I'm more jaded than I thought I was but nothing I saw really had much effect on me.

20Cent

Jonny7 wrote: »

"Occupy Egypt"? bit of a naive comparison.

These people have been fighting and dying in their thousands all across Middle East/North Africa for their basic rights and freedom against the decades long rule of dictators and brutal regimes - they aren't a bunch of students/etc camped in a park with a myriad of first world problems who get to go home to mummy and daddy after.

This attitude winds me up. They are fighting and being beaten to have their say in repressive regimes there fore those of us lucky enough to live on countries where this does not happen should STFU.
To me it means we should use the freedoms that we have to the max.

Molloys Clondalkin

I agree withe MajorMax A video that has been edited to highlight some extremes has worked to play on others.
Theres nothing in this video that wasnt in the reclaim the streets riots of dublin.

Does that make us any better or worse?

When you have an upheavel of such dramatic proportions like egypt and what we will see in libya and soon syria after the big evil is gone then all the little ones will come out to play.

Just like we had in Ireland in 22 a civil war because you cant please all the people all the time but when one group comes out fihjting then that gives another the reason to do the same when does it stop???

Chuck Stone

I feel extremely pessimistic about the prospects for freedom of the general population in Egypt. The Egyptian regime is the 2nd biggest benefactor of US 'foreign aid' after Israel in the M.E. for a number of reasons.

It's the most populous Muslim nation in the M.E. and happens to be a former enemy of Israel and is now a purchased ally. The wider Egyptian population sympathize with the Palestinians. Gaza borders Egypt.

The Suez Canal is of great strategic importance to the US, the West, and Israel. A large proportion of the oil supply of Europe and the US travels through the canal.

The effectiveness of the Israeli Navy would effectively be split in half between the Red Sea and the Med if Egypt decided to close the canal in the event of a conflict. Also, the US (and other western navies) can run their ships through the Suez canal up to and including super carriers.

What are the chances for freedom of 70 odd million people in the face of such global interests?

Turner

Over 90 police stations have been burned to the ground in Egypt this year since mubarrak was kicked out.

southsiderosie

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I'm sorry, but are you kidding me? This is self-serving nonsense at its finest.

Some states with very high levels of economic freedom quite often have very low levels of political freedom. Many of the Asian Tigers were not (and are not) fully democratic states, yet have very open economies. Some states with high levels of political freedom have rather heavy-handed state involvement in the economy (the Nordic countries come to mind).

Who, then, in this scenario is more 'free': a citizen of Bahrain (10th most economically free according to the Heritage Foundation) where hundreds of people have been subject to the same kind of violence that we saw in the above video, or Italy, which is #87 on the economic freedom list (behind Burkina Faso, Kazakhstan, and Saudi Arabia)?

Furthermore, blaming police brutality on a 'strong state' is absurd, since police brutality (and corruption) tends to be rampant in weak states - places like Guatemala or Nicaragua where state security forces operate with a cowboy mentality in part because they are underpaid and undertrained, or where they explicitly serve the interests of a government which has been captured by a tiny oligarchy (such as the "Seven Families" of El Salvador, etc).

I know that in this specific instance Dev called you out on this, but the attempt to turn pretty much any and every situation involving citizen-state relations into some kind of justification for libertarian economic policy is, frankly, ridiculous. There is no guarantee that economic liberty leads to political liberty, or that state involvement in the economy automatically translates into state interference with political freedom. Just ask a Bahraini.

Jonny7

20Cent wrote: »

This attitude winds me up. They are fighting and being beaten to have their say in repressive regimes there fore those of us lucky enough to live on countries where this does not happen should STFU.
To me it means we should use the freedoms that we have to the max.

Whilst I completely agree with this statement you appear to have missed my point entirely.

There's no comparison between these (and previous) protests in Egypt and the "OWS" protests in New York. None.

jank

I think there is very little in common with the OWS protestors and these protests. What is happening in the middle east is a revolution that has been 2 or 3 generations in the making. OWS are nothing more than a rabble of discontent at those in powerful positions in large corporations. The difference is light and day.

hoorsmelt

Jonny7 wrote: »

"Occupy Egypt"? bit of a naive comparison.

These people have been fighting and dying in their thousands all across Middle East/North Africa for their basic rights and freedom against the decades long rule of dictators and brutal regimes - they aren't a bunch of students/etc camped in a park with a myriad of first world problems who get to go home to mummy and daddy after.

Tell that to the guy who was left in a coma by the police at Occupy Oakland, or the hundreds arrested for no reason in New York.

Manic Moran

They must really have pissed off the security forces. Definitely unprofessional by our standards.

realies wrote: »

The overt use of force, caught on TV and activist cameras, is likely a sign that the generals who took power after the February ouster of Hosni Mubarak are confident that the Egyptian public is on its side

Though I'm not so sure about the rest of the post, this makes sense and also matches with what the pundits on the radio have been saying here in the US.

NTM

hatrickpatrick

Jonny7 wrote: »

Whilst I completely agree with this statement you appear to have missed my point entirely.

There's no comparison between these (and previous) protests in Egypt and the "OWS" protests in New York. None.

There is, however, some comparison with the police response to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2biXuxkdnE

What's happening in Egypt is obviously about a million times worse and I'm not denying that for a second. On the other hand... Police brutality is police brutality. Though some of it may be far more violent than others, none of it is in any way acceptable. None.

AlekSmart

Manic Moran wrote: »

They must really have pissed off the security forces. Definitely unprofessional by our standards.

NTM

Unprofessional indeed,and quite evocative of the lack of Garda tactics we ourselves saw during Love Ulster.

You can rest assured that this Police Force will be torn asunder when the going gets REALLY tough in Egypt,ie: if U.N./NATO can be prevailed upon to impose a no-fly zone or assist "The Rebels" on the ground.

Both Egypt and Syria are "Calling-Out" the piebald nature of U.N. policies and ethos here.

Gadaffi's Libya merited a far swifter response with far less actually proven oppression than what we see here,although I'm confident the Anti-Aircraft guns will be along any minute now.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Wibbs

Molloys Clondalkin wrote: »

Theres nothing in this video that wasnt in the reclaim the streets riots of dublin.

Are you being serious? How many died here? I'm gonna paraphrase Crocodile Dundee and say "that wasn't state brutality, this is state brutality".

DeVore wrote: »

I have the funniest feeling that between the EU financial crisis, the polarisation of America and Arab Spring we are one "event" away from anarchy.

I've had a similar feeling D. For quite a while. I remember a very old uncle of mine telling me of the lead up to WW2. As he said looking back with the benefit of history it looks inevitable, but at the time the vast majority of people went about their day thinking "naw don't be silly. Bloody doom mongers. We've just come out of the war to end all wars. It'll work out, no way will it kick off again". And then it did. My dad said similar.

Will something deeply unpleasant worldwide kick off again? Hard to say or see, for me anyway. Global economic "world war three" I can see alright. IMHO a hard reset is in progress at the moment, but we're not seeing it, or most of us aren't seeing how bad it might get. The dilly dallying and back and forth of the EU currently does remind me of previous lead ins to war/strife. An element of the band wondering what tune to play after the iceberg struck. And that iceberg has hit and economically there aren't enough lifeboats from what I can see. Plus we hear of this shift to the east economically and how China is where it's at. Not in my humble. They're assemblers more than creators and if the "west's" ship goes down they'll go down with us. Who else can they sell to? Who else will buy their placcy toys and ipads? Not their own people. They're too poor, or the vast majority beyond the gleaming spires of the new cities are. Indeed if I was looking for "events" that might change things, I'd be looking to the Chinese hinterlands and the billions feeling left out.

Ash.J.Williams

Molloys Clondalkin wrote: »

I agree withe MajorMax A video that has been edited to highlight some extremes has worked to play on others.
Theres nothing in this video that wasnt in the reclaim the streets riots of dublin.

Does that make us any better or worse?

When you have an upheavel of such dramatic proportions like egypt and what we will see in libya and soon syria after the big evil is gone then all the little ones will come out to play.

Just like we had in Ireland in 22 a civil war because you cant please all the people all the time but when one group comes out fihjting then that gives another the reason to do the same when does it stop???

reclaim the streets was a bit of horseplay and tickling compared to that video.

gandalf

I think that you are doing a disservice to the protesters in Egypt by labelling this as an "Occupy" protest. Clearly from Dev's video people have been very seriously assaulted and even probably murdered. There is a battle in Egypt for democracy and people are spilling blood for it.

The so-called Occupy movement here and it other Western Cities from my perspective appears to be the normal malcontent's protesting just for the sake of it. Them getting a bit cold in a democracy that does protect their rights is a bit rich when comparing it to people whose lives are on the line because they ask for rights that we here in the west take for granted.

The Waltzing Consumer

Molloys Clondalkin wrote: »

Theres nothing in this video that wasnt in the reclaim the streets riots of dublin.

Are you serious??? WTF? I know we should express our opinions but there is a line when someone just says something that is so factually incorrect, it should be removed or highlighted by Mods as 100% false.

Sometimes stupidity deserves a ban too ya know?

Comparing stuff in that video to the reclaim the streets riot is bizarre to put it mildly. Easily the worst statement I have ever read on this site. You should get an award.

DeVore

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Are you serious??? WTF? I know we should express our opinions but there is a line when someone just says something that is so factually incorrect, it should be removed or highlighted by Mods as 100% false.

Sometimes stupidity deserves a ban too ya know?

Comparing stuff in that video to the reclaim the streets riot is bizarre to put it mildly. Easily the worst statement I have ever read on this site. You should get an award.

No, stupidity should be exposed and challenged. Thats one of the reasons for Boards to exist.


To the point at hand, I dunno why anyone would want to compare violent acts against the populace. Reclaim was ugly as all hell. A friend of mine was a camera man (professional) recording for internet distribution when he was beaten to a state that he spent a few nights in hospital and his expensive shoulder mounted camera was smashed to pieces to get at the evidence (which the muppets didnt even get because they couldnt recognise what bit was the storage device). He won the resulting court case with the judge saying he had never seen its like (it helps that he left his camera running )
But this Egytian thing is something else!
Neither were days we should be proud of as a race.

By the way, I consider myself a libertarian. I dont know what Permy is
(and sorry for sticking it to Permabear personally. I'm sparring, not having a go).

DeV.

southsiderosie

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

This assumes a rather static view of history, as the Heritage rankings makes clear. Friedman's book was published in the early 60s. Since then, and especially since countries have seen the success of the Asian Tiger economies (and China) many governments have realized that you can have a great degree of economic freedom while maintaining tight political control over the general population. This works in part because the more money that is coming in, the more a) states are able to maintain their grip on power, and b) the more acquiescent the population is - people are generally ok with limitations on freedom as long as they are doing ok financially and things are relatively stable. Ultimately, modernization theory was wrong: development doesn't necessarily bring democracy. But nobody in the 1960s thought that way - instead it took the success of Asian semi-democracies to make that clear.

southsiderosie

Wibbs wrote: »

Will something deeply unpleasant worldwide kick off again? Hard to say or see, for me anyway. Global economic "world war three" I can see alright. IMHO a hard reset is in progress at the moment, but we're not seeing it, or most of us aren't seeing how bad it might get. The dilly dallying and back and forth of the EU currently does remind me of previous lead ins to war/strife. An element of the band wondering what tune to play after the iceberg struck.

I have to wonder if the next step isn't a move to retreat back into our shells - you can see this in the EU where smaller countries are increasingly wondering if it would be worth the economic pain to go it alone, in terms of currency and economic policy. Certainly this has happened before, particularly in the early 20th century. I don't like the term 'globalization' because it has been a bit of a catch-all, but ultimately it is not inevitable, it is a political construct. So subsequently, it can be ripped apart, and rather easily.

There is a famous book called The Great Illusion, by Normal Angell. He argued that, given levels of international economic integration, that European countries would never again go to war with each other. The book was published in 1910...and we know how that all turned out. And many have argued that there were higher levels of globalization in that era (free movement of capital and people, although certainly not at the speed or volume of today). So I don't think a global 'hunkering down' is too far gone a theory - even if it would be economically ruinous for many countries. The next question is: what then for political order? That, I think, is the scary part.

The Waltzing Consumer

DeVore wrote: »

No, stupidity should be exposed and challenged. Thats one of the reasons for Boards to exist.


To the point at hand, I dunno why anyone would want to compare violent acts against the populace. Reclaim was ugly as all hell. A friend of mine was a camera man (professional) recording for internet distribution when he was beaten to a state that he spent a few nights in hospital and his expensive shoulder mounted camera was smashed to pieces to get at the evidence (which the muppets didnt even get because they couldnt recognise what bit was the storage device). He won the resulting court case with the judge saying he had never seen its like (it helps that he left his camera running )
But this Egytian thing is something else!
Neither were days we should be proud of as a race.

I would agree with your outlook but I just find it deeply embarrassing that there is a significant number of left-wing people in Ireland who are nearly masochistic in their desire for Gardai or state brutality. As your example above shows, your friend had the courts at his disposal after that disgusting attack by a handful of Gardai. But that video of Egypt, quite simply, there are people in that that are not in this world anymore, and to try and beef up your political suffereing by comparing it, is disgusting and shallow.

They could show concentration camps and actual genocide and these leftists would still be "yeah, same thing happens here" whilst typing on their iMacs and sipping champagne.

To get back on topic I'm wondering if somebody can explain this new Egyptian movement to me..

I understand the original protest was about democracy in some form, however now that elections have been announced and brought forward why are people still protesting?

The islamist parties seem to be the big gainers (big surprise) so I'm wondering what this will mean for the liberals - are the people protesting islamists or liberals? It seems every news report I've read or seen has a few bits of disconnected information and I'm finding it difficult to build a narrative on this one.. It seems the press don't know what way to present these protests.

Manic Moran

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

To get back on topic I'm wondering if somebody can explain this new Egyptian movement to me..

I understand the original protest was about democracy in some form, however now that elections have been announced and brought forward why are people still protesting?

The islamist parties seem to be the big gainers (big surprise) so I'm wondering what this will mean for the liberals - are the people protesting islamists or liberals? It seems every news report I've read or seen has a few bits of disconnected information and I'm finding it difficult to build a narrative on this one.. It seems the press don't know what way to present these protests.

A very good question I was wondering about myself.

Sunnyisland

Is it that the military don't want to loose the control of power ? They are blaming unknown elements on the violence exactly like the previous government did.

hoorsmelt

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I'm sorry but that's a load of cock and bull. Most countries that count as very free economically like Singapore or Hong Kong have little in the way of democracy, the right to join trade unions is strictly limited and the governments there maintain strict control over the political scene while allowing a great deal of latitude in economic affairs. In Indonesia in the 1960s the Suharto regime tore down labour regulations and drastically reduced the size of the state while simultaneously murdering almost 1 million members of the Indonesian Communist Party, the Chilean and Argentine governments in the 1970s were responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands, the Contras and death squads in Central America as well, all of these crimes were committed by governments, or representatives of governments, committed to upholding economic freedom. So to say that a large or welfare state is somehow automatically incompatible with freedom or human rights is laughable, or would be if it wasn't taken seriously by a large number of gullible people.

southsiderosie

realies wrote: »

The overt use of force, caught on TV and activist cameras, is likely a sign that the generals who took power after the February ouster of Hosni Mubarak are confident that the Egyptian public is on its side after two rounds of widely acclaimed parliament elections, that Islamist parties winning the vote will stay out of the fight while pro-democracy protesters become more isolated.I am sure the muslim brotherhood and the Islamist Salafis will be quite happy to see the protests crushed while at the same time concentrate on getting themselfs into even more powerful positions within goverment.

It's one thing to feel that the people are on the side of no more protests - it is understandable that some people want to see a return to normalcy. But that is a far cry from beating the living snot out of protesters the way the police were in that video. And I'd be curious to hear what the Islamists would have to say about them ripping the clothes off of that woman in the video and kicking her in the chest (one officer quickly wraps her cloak back around her again afterwards).

realies wrote: »

Is it that the military don't want to loose the control of power ? They are blaming unknown elements on the violence exactly like the previous government did.

That is the sense I got. The civilian governing coalition has been pretty much powerless to stop the actions of the military, even though they have condemned violence against civilians. If the military makes peace with the Islamists, that will probably be a quick end to the democratic experiment in Egypt, unfortunately.

The Waltzing Consumer

20Cent wrote: »

Who are you talking about?
Any links?

Eh the poster who said there was nothing in that Egyptian video that did not happen in Reclaim the Streets riot. The whole thing that sparked this discussion off.

Let's not forget the SWP and Eirigi who hijacked the Student protests last year and caused trouble only to claim Garda brutality.

Oh and maybe the whole Shell to Sea who have countless claims against the Gardai, lets not forget the whole rape claim when two gardai were videoed gently escorting one of the women from the roof of a vehicle, which then sparked the rape joke outrage.

Let's not kid ourselves, there are extreme left wing members who manipulate genuine protests to try and seek a brutality claim simply to get publicity.

kippy

DeVore wrote: »

No, stupidity should be exposed and challenged. Thats one of the reasons for Boards to exist.


To the point at hand, I dunno why anyone would want to compare violent acts against the populace. Reclaim was ugly as all hell. A friend of mine was a camera man (professional) recording for internet distribution when he was beaten to a state that he spent a few nights in hospital and his expensive shoulder mounted camera was smashed to pieces to get at the evidence (which the muppets didnt even get because they couldnt recognise what bit was the storage device). He won the resulting court case with the judge saying he had never seen its like (it helps that he left his camera running )
But this Egytian thing is something else!
Neither were days we should be proud of as a race.

By the way, I consider myself a libertarian. I dont know what Permy is
(and sorry for sticking it to Permabear personally. I'm sparring, not having a go).

DeV.

Boards is more of a discussion forum than a means of challenging/exposing stupidity I would have thought.... a talking shop if you will.
I'm not entirely sure why these people were/are protesting and/or what the context of this clip is, however I do agree, it is particularly brutal no matter what the context.
I agree, it's is rather strange that people in this thread are comparing this to what has happened with the Gardai in the past few years, I amn't sure of the relevance.
As for the impending WW3 which some appear to be predicting. I would obviously hope not and I don't believe the conditions are there for a war thankfully, however there will be fraught moments all over the world over the coming decades, as there have been over the past 70 odd years.

K-9

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

To get back on topic I'm wondering if somebody can explain this new Egyptian movement to me..

I understand the original protest was about democracy in some form, however now that elections have been announced and brought forward why are people still protesting?

The islamist parties seem to be the big gainers (big surprise) so I'm wondering what this will mean for the liberals - are the people protesting islamists or liberals? It seems every news report I've read or seen has a few bits of disconnected information and I'm finding it difficult to build a narrative on this one.. It seems the press don't know what way to present these protests.

I think it was BBC Hardtalk that had an interview with a journalist from the state TV station a couple of weeks ago. She had returned to the station but she couldn't even say things had improved. The problem seems to be freedom of expression rights are worse if anything and people are sickened of the slow rate of change. Living in a military police state can't be good.

Scofflaw

Could we can the incipient handbagging implicit in posts like "how many lefties do you know?"

Such posts add nothing to the discussion, because everybody knows they cannot actually be resolved over the internet - and if they could, still nobody would care.

If you're wondering where your post has gone, this is probably the answer.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Valmont

It might be that Mubarak was simply a scapegoat--the military are the real oppressors in Egypt. And they don't appear to be going anywhere.

Which reminds me, who armed, gave aid to, and otherwise supported said military? That's right, it was the U.S.A.

Like everyone else though, I'm still unsure as to exactly what is going on.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

K-9

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

That's the danger, it goes from the military to the militants. Egypt ironically enough used to be held up as an example for the Middle East so hopefully the more liberal side win out. People forget Greece and Spain had military or Franco Governments not that long ago, its going to be a long process.

WakeUp

That video is quite shocking. That first person the police/scum were beating was a woman then they drag her off. How can you do that to anyone let alone a woman. Those security forces are obviously a bunch of animals pretty much the same security apparatus supported by the West till' it suited otherwise. Not for a second am I trying to put the blame on the West but they/we turned a blind eye I'm sure these sorts of things have been going on for years we just haven't heard about them. The entire world is tinkering on the edge of disaster not just in that part of the world. This entire planet is run by headcases regardless of religion or creed. We need proper human beings in positions of power not the maniacs who run things as it stands. Whatever happened to just being human where did we go wrong animals don't even treat each other like that. B@stards.

southsiderosie

WakeUp wrote: »

That video is quite shocking. That first person the police/scum were beating was a woman then they drag her off. How can you do that to anyone let alone a woman. Those security forces are obviously a bunch of animals pretty much the same security apparatus supported by the West till' it suited otherwise. Not for a second am I trying to put the blame on the West but they/we turned a blind eye I'm sure these sorts of things have been going on for years we just haven't heard about them. The entire world is tinkering on the edge of disaster not just in that part of the world. This entire planet is run by headcases regardless of religion or creed. We need proper human beings in positions of power not the maniacs who run things as it stands. Whatever happened to just being human where did we go wrong animals don't even treat each other like that. B@stards.

Actually violence against women in Egypt is sadly common. Sexual harassment and street assault are rife, even when women veil themselves. It's a bit of an anomaly in that regard; in other countries in the region, women are quite safe walking down the street or traveling alone.

Egypt has had a lot of festering social problems for decades, and these are not going to be resolved in just a few months. The difference is now, expectations are higher among certain segments of the population, and that can only lead to more bloody conflict as those hopes are dashed.

I hate to be so pessimistic, but I can't really see the situation in any other way.

Valmont

southsiderosie wrote: »

...I hate to be so pessimistic, but I can't really see the situation in any other way.

I've had to emit a retrospective snigger at the almost maturbatory 'Arab Spring' news stories that were rampant when all of this protesting began. Although I read the occasional blogger who was suspicious of the whole thing, most reporting was assuming victory of some kind. Looking at the pessimism this thread has evoked (myself included) makes me realise how naive most really were when this protest movement began.

They were getting screwed by group A and now they're getting screwed slightly differently by group B. Hurrah for uprisings!

hmmm

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

To get back on topic I'm wondering if somebody can explain this new Egyptian movement to me..

I understand the original protest was about democracy in some form, however now that elections have been announced and brought forward why are people still protesting?

I'll attempt with my small bit of knowledge. BTW I'd like to express my annoyance at the thread title, to compare Egypt to the Occupy movement is ridiculous, these people are fighting for democracy, basic human rights and the overthrow of a dictatorship that has murdered and tortured tens of thousands.

The army took control after Mubarak fell via the SCAF - the Supreme Council. They have appointed a civilian government, but that government reports to the SCAF.

The army have decided that the process for handover to civilian power will start with an election to an constituent parliament whose job it is to create a new constitution. This election will be completed by mid January. So, the current elections are not to find out which civilian parties will get power, but rather who will draft the constitution.

The tentative date for completion of constitution and handover of power from SCAF is June 2012. However, no firm date has been set. The protestors fear that no date for a handover will ever be set, there has been delays already.

The army in Egypt is like a mafia corporation, with the generals as directors. It controls 10% or more of Egypts economy, so it wants to protect its patch. It has insisted that certain clauses are inserted into the constitution which give the army a supervisory role over the political process.

The protestors are all over the place in their aims, but ultimately most want
1) A constitution free of army interference
2) A quicker handover to a caretaker civilian government with no army SCAF control.

Unfortunately for the protestors, their demands are hopelessly naive and they lack support. It wasn't only the army beating and fighting them, but also Cairo residents. The protestors are gaining sympathy because of the images we've seen, but very little support.

For a start, the army has not done all that much wrong in Egpytians eyes. Their economy is dead on its feet because tourism has largely stopped. The army represents stability after a year of chaos - the ordinary Egyptian has as much interest in the army stepping aside immediately as the average Irish person wants the government to default immediately.

The fear (and its a reasonable fear) with the protestors is that the army will re-establish a dictatorship. Mubarak was an army man, he may have been on the throne but his power came from the army. The protestors fear that a figurehead has been overthrown, but not "the system".

I'd say if a poll was taken today, 90% of Egyptians would see the actions of the army as brutal but necessary.

Molloys Clondalkin

OK maybe I was wrong to compare it to the garda responce to the reclaim the street riots
But my opinion is that the video is not as bad as made out to be.

Look at riots all around the world there all responded to in the same way cops and in eygpts case its the army come running down the street with batons and when people dont get out of the way they get a smack of said baton.

It happens everywhere nothing to single out eygpt over.
Show me one country that doesnt beat up political protesters?

hatrickpatrick

Molloys Clondalkin wrote: »

OK maybe I was wrong to compare it to the garda responce to the reclaim the street riots
But my opinion is that the video is not as bad as made out to be.

Look at riots all around the world there all responded to in the same way cops and in eygpts case its the army come running down the street with batons and when people dont get out of the way they get a smack of said baton.

It happens everywhere nothing to single out eygpt over.
Show me one country that doesnt beat up political protesters?

Does any of that make it acceptable? Murder happens all the time as well, does that make it ok?
It should never be tolerated, ever, regardless of what country it happens in.

Molloys Clondalkin

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Does any of that make it acceptable? Murder happens all the time as well, does that make it ok?
It should never be tolerated, ever, regardless of what country it happens in.

I never said it was acceptable or that its right of course its wrong no sone should be killed
Im just saying we need to look a lot closer to home before we start to judge how others deal with things llike this,
Ive seen a lot worse than this a hell of a lot worse and by countries who are "shinging lights etc" To sit there and make it sound like Eygpt is the axis of evil I think is a bit too far.
They got Mubarak out they are getting thier elections now its not happening quick enough and when someone does take over there will be another group sitting in the square wanting change.
And when all thats dealt with the whole thing starts all over again.

Someone said a few pages ago dont forget it was the US who armed them
Seriously so what if they didnt then it would be the russians or chienese do they think anything would be different? No it would just still be one side vs the other. the time to stop these protests is when people get injured before someone gets killed.
Ten people died because of this in Eygpt and theres a video and thread
How many got killed in Iran looking for fair elections and in Syria nothing will change because of this sure its sad but its reality and no amount of twitter or facebook campaigns will change the minds of those with power.

RichieC

hoorsmelt wrote: »

I'm sorry but that's a load of cock and bull. Most countries that count as very free economically like Singapore or Hong Kong have little in the way of democracy, the right to join trade unions is strictly limited and the governments there maintain strict control over the political scene while allowing a great deal of latitude in economic affairs. In Indonesia in the 1960s the Suharto regime tore down labour regulations and drastically reduced the size of the state while simultaneously murdering almost 1 million members of the Indonesian Communist Party, the Chilean and Argentine governments in the 1970s were responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands, the Contras and death squads in Central America as well, all of these crimes were committed by governments, or representatives of governments, committed to upholding economic freedom. So to say that a large or welfare state is somehow automatically incompatible with freedom or human rights is laughable, or would be if it wasn't taken seriously by a large number of gullible people.

The only freedom is economic freedom. so you tear down the unions and kill the commies and from the ashes will rise a beautiful free market paradise.

That sounds like a strawman and it is tounge in cheek but in reality the economic system rhat permabear and others advocate would be so horribly unpopular with the average man on the street that it requires strong men like suharto or pinochet to implement.

re op, I'm to soft to watch the video.

Jonny7

Valmont wrote: »

I've had to emit a retrospective snigger at the almost maturbatory 'Arab Spring' news stories that were rampant when all of this protesting began. Although I read the occasional blogger who was suspicious of the whole thing, most reporting was assuming victory of some kind. Looking at the pessimism this thread has evoked (myself included) makes me realise how naive most really were when this protest movement began.

They were getting screwed by group A and now they're getting screwed slightly differently by group B. Hurrah for uprisings!

Most people don't even know the history of their own country, let alone the amount of blood shed so they can vote and speak freely, but any step in the right direction is always a victory, in Egypt's case a pretty bloody big victory. Many hurdles to come, but at least now there is hope rather than a predetermined endless dictatorship.