protein

EastTyrone

is too much protein in dogs food bad for a dog? if so what is best amount of protein that a dog should have in his diet

daithi55

once its a complete dog nuts of a reasonable brand
and 20% protein is all ive ever fed my dogs and there fine

Ronnie Beck

EastTyrone wrote: »

is too much protein in dogs food bad for a dog? if so what is best amount of protein that a dog should have in his diet

It's a myth that too much protein is bad for a dog. A working/active dog should get 25 -30% protein content and the best quality you can afford. Quality protein should come from meat not plants.

Cupid__Stunt

The ratio of protein to fat is what you need to watch more than the % protein.

patdahat

what's the ratio???

Ronnie Beck

patdahat wrote: »

what's the ratio???

Wild rabbit is about 4/5% fat and about 30% protein.

fodda

You should be more worried about your dog not getting enough protein and thats why you should feed meat and not just nuts as dogs would never eat grain as part of their natural food. If your dog has too much protein then it will most likely go to fat as it does with us. If he is active i should imagine he will most likely burn it off.

Ronnie Beck

fodda wrote: »

You should be more worried about your dog not getting enough protein and thats why you should feed meat and not just nuts as dogs would never eat grain as part of their natural food. If your dog has too much protein then it will most likely go to fat as it does with us. If he is active i should imagine he will most likely burn it off.

Well said fodda, meat is the best possible food for a dog. Dry food is handy alright but bad for them in the long run. Excess protein is excreted through the kidneys (pissed against a tree) and has no effects on a healthy dog. More here...

http://dogsfirst.ie/Nutrition/Excess_Protein.html

EPointer=Birdss

Protein is the core element of a dogs diet. For a workig dog I would be feeding 20-30% protein. Unused protein as Fodda said is converted to fat but a portion is also excreted through the Kidneys as with us also.
Your dogs condition will tell you if you are over feeding or not. This time of year it is very hard to keep them in good knick because they are working & require more food with the cold. Fat content is also important as this gives them the energy they need coupled with carbs they get in nuts.
I mix scraps & tripe through their food a few times a week. If the food is good enough for me to eat it is good enough for the dogs to finish off. I am not a fan of dry nuts only as you need to be spending good money to get proper food with proper nutrients. This is also a 100% processed diet which cannot be good for them & is rumoured to be bad for their kidneys...

DogsFirst

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

For a workig dog I would be feeding 20-30% protein. Unused protein as Fodda said is converted to fat but a portion is also excreted through the Kidneys as with us also

Not sure about the 20-30% protein thing. This level is a minimum standard set by AAFCO (1995) who make the guidelines for dogs food. Unfortunately down the line this recommendation of minimun has become the optimum required for a dog. Humans as omnivores are reccomended (very approximately) to eat 25% carbs, 25% animal protein and dairy, 50% fruit and veg for the real healthy diet. You're recommending a dog as a carnivore (eating 95% animal protein in the form of muscle, cartilage and bone) to eat twice this amount of carbs. It doesn't add up. Their cheap cash saving ingredients have now become "required" by dogs, to some serious disadvantage to your dog (linked to cancer, poor behaviour from high blood sugar, obesity, gall stones, pancreaitis, diabetes, lean muscle mass loss).

Dogs have no requirements for carbs, they make their own, excess is stored as fat. Protein is not stored by the body. Excess is deaminated by the liver and rid by the kidneys. So it's almost impossible to over-dose on protein (googles searched come up with nothing but one or two cases of weightlifters). This is why all diets recommend increasing protein and lowering carbs. It's not stored as fat, fat and carbs are.

For a working dog I'd be recommending as much fresh meat and oily oily fish as possible. If you chose to feed a dry food with this make sure it is free from cereal (gluten / phytic acid) such as wheat, barley and rye, and as little chemicals as possible.

DogsFirst

Ronnie Beck wrote: »

Wild rabbit is about 4/5% fat and about 30% protein.

Whats the other 65%??!!!

A rabbit (like all animals) is roughly 85% protein and 15% fat say...........unless you're saying he has carbohydrates in there too?! Which is really just a plant thing (there is actually a negligible amount of carbs in muscle but nothing worth talking about).

I think the mistake you're making is you're talking fresh weight, ie the rest is water. But you have to remove the water content (dry mass weight, as in dry food measurements on the side of any bag) before you discuss or people could misinterpret and think "well my dry food has 30% protein...perfect!!". Dry food measures in dry mass and they make up the massive loss of protein with cheap carbs.

Rabbit: 85% protein (meat, vital cartilige and bones) and 15% fat
Dry Food: 25% protein 15% fat 60% carbohydrate (roughly the same as a pizza or mc donalds meal.....)

EPointer=Birdss

DogsFirst wrote: »

Not sure about the 20-30% protein thing. This level is a minimum standard set by AAFCO (1995) who make the guidelines for dogs food. Unfortunately down the line this recommendation of minimun has become the optimum required for a dog. Humans as omnivores are reccomended (very approximately) to eat 25% carbs, 25% animal protein and dairy, 50% fruit and veg for the real healthy diet. You're recommending a dog as a carnivore (eating 95% animal protein in the form of muscle, cartilage and bone) to eat twice this amount of carbs. It doesn't add up. Their cheap cash saving ingredients have now become "required" by dogs, to some serious disadvantage to your dog (linked to cancer, poor behaviour from high blood sugar, obesity, gall stones, pancreaitis, diabetes, lean muscle mass loss).

Dogs have no requirements for carbs, they make their own, excess is stored as fat. Protein is not stored by the body. Excess is deaminated by the liver and rid by the kidneys. So it's almost impossible to over-dose on protein (googles searched come up with nothing but one or two cases of weightlifters). This is why all diets recommend increasing protein and lowering carbs. It's not stored as fat, fat and carbs are.

For a working dog I'd be recommending as much fresh meat and oily oily fish as possible. If you chose to feed a dry food with this make sure it is free from cereal (gluten / phytic acid) such as wheat, barley and rye, and as little chemicals as possible.

When I say 20-30 I was talking about nuts as generally they don't come any higher.

I'd agree in general but excess protein goes 3 ways. Absorbed, Through the kidneys as you say & converted & stored as fat.

Generally protein conversion to fat is rare as conditions for it to happen in humans anyway are extreme. However meat contains more than protein including fats. Either way it's all calories & more calories = weight gain in both muscle & fat.

DogsFirst

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

When I say 20-30 I was talking about nuts as generally they don't come any higher.

I'd agree in general but excess protein goes 3 ways. Absorbed, Through the kidneys as you say & converted & stored as fat.

Generally protein conversion to fat is rare as conditions for it to happen in humans anyway are extreme. However meat contains more than protein including fats. Either way it's all calories & more calories = weight gain in both muscle & fat.

Just to make sure we're not talking about the same thing....

You eat protein (meat muscle) and through digestion you break it down into amino acids (individual units) which pass through the intestine membrane and are used by the body to make muscle, hormones etc. What isn't need by the body is deaminated by the liver and kidneys filter it out in the form of urea.

It is absolutely never, at any point, converted to fat in dogs. Protein is converted to carbohydrates in a process called glycogenesis if the dog needs some carbs (to say form some fat in winter, a trick reserved solely for carnivores) but it is not the protein putting the fat on, it's the carbs it made. If it doesn't need them, it doesn't make them. I've studied canine nutrition for many years, I lecture on the subject to vets, really think you should do a quick google search of the question (use some form of nutrition website, or body builders forum, whatever) if you need some convincing.

It's important people aren't confused as adding fresh animal protein to the dogs food is the most crucial, essential step that is missing from their nutrition today. Even dogs with 10% of their kidney function left process high protein diets perfectly adequately, so don't worry about the whole myth "too much protein". References available in link above.

Ronnie Beck

DogsFirst wrote: »

Whats the other 65%??!!!

A rabbit (like all animals) is roughly 85% protein and 15% fat say...........unless you're saying he has carbohydrates in there too?! Which is really just a plant thing (there is actually a negligible amount of carbs in muscle but nothing worth talking about).

I think the mistake you're making is you're talking fresh weight, ie the rest is water. But you have to remove the water content (dry mass weight, as in dry food measurements on the side of any bag) before you discuss or people could misinterpret and think "well my dry food has 30% protein...perfect!!". Dry food measures in dry mass and they make up the massive loss of protein with cheap carbs.

Rabbit: 85% protein (meat, vital cartilige and bones) and 15% fat
Dry Food: 25% protein 15% fat 60% carbohydrate (roughly the same as a pizza or mc donalds meal.....)

I meant literally throwing your dog a wild rabbit from the freezer. 2/3 water... I see now it might have been confusing people into thinking it was carbs.

Does 85% protein, 15% fat mean that if you dehydrate a rabbit thats whats left? puts a bag of dog food into perspective.

EPointer=Birdss

DogsFirst wrote: »

Just to make sure we're not talking about the same thing....

You eat protein (meat muscle) and through digestion you break it down into amino acids (individual units) which pass through the intestine membrane and are used by the body to make muscle, hormones etc. What isn't need by the body is deaminated by the liver and kidneys filter it out in the form of urea.

It is absolutely never, at any point, converted to fat in dogs. Protein is converted to carbohydrates in a process called glycogenesis if the dog needs some carbs (to say form some fat in winter, a trick reserved solely for carnivores) but it is not the protein putting the fat on, it's the carbs it made. If it doesn't need them, it doesn't make them. I've studied canine nutrition for many years, I lecture on the subject to vets, really think you should do a quick google search of the question (use some form of nutrition website, or body builders forum, whatever) if you need some convincing.

It's important people aren't confused as adding fresh animal protein to the dogs food is the most crucial, essential step that is missing from their nutrition today. Even dogs with 10% of their kidney function left process high protein diets perfectly adequately, so don't worry about the whole myth "too much protein". References available in link above.

Without knowing the science behind it this is what I was getting at. Protein to carbs to fat as opposed to protein to fat.

Would you feed a whole meat diet & if so what type would you recommend & quantities?? Very interesting.

X1R

There is another element that needs to be taken into account. It was already mentioned, oil. The day of selling dog food with no nutritional value is gone. Anyone can take a sample of dog food and sent it to a lab for testing. This thing of the more you pay the better the food is BS. A balanced food is essential depending on what you are using your dog for. A low fibre% with higher oil and protein content means the dogs will have to burn off the resulting weight gain during he season. A Lower oil, protein content is ideal for dogs that are out of season. Breed to becomes a factor.

DogsFirst

Ronnie Beck wrote: »

I meant literally throwing your dog a wild rabbit from the freezer. 2/3 water... I see now it might have been confusing people into thinking it was carbs.

Does 85% protein, 15% fat mean that if you dehydrate a rabbit thats whats left? puts a bag of dog food into perspective.

Totally. It is the main point that be can be taken from any recent nutritional manual for dogs. What they're getting to day is so so far from what they're used to. Nature doesn't let you do that too easy.

Think adding protein to the cows feed etc (puts on muscle instead of fat). Very tricky business re bloat etc. And with chronic disease so rife in dry fed dogs, diseases that aren't apparent in fresh fed populations ("mysterious allergy", gastrointestinal upset, diabetes and acute pancreatitis at 25-50 times that seen in humans!, cancer rates, pet insurers in UK not insuring your pet at 7years, dogs proven to become less aggitated after 8 weeks on fresh, blood tests showing fresh fed dogs are immunologically far stronger than dry fed........)

it all mounts.....so much so that dry food sales last year fell (in quantity) for the first time since it's conception (Euromonitor Pet Food Report, 2010 - 2011) as fresh / frozen food sales rose exponentially. As we learn more about the benefits of fresh, attention is slowly turning to our dogs....

It's going the way of bottled milk for babies. The quicker the better.

DogsFirst

X1R wrote: »

A low fibre% with higher oil and protein content means the dogs will have to burn off the resulting weight gain during he season.

Dogs have absolutely zero requirement for plant fibre. They already have rapid systems. It merely serves to bulk the stool creating the big sloppy masses of dry fed dogs with anal gland issues. It also pushes the digesta through the already rapid system which means the dog gets less chance to absorb what it needs from the dry food and it's minimum nutritional content (vitamins are protein are included in your dogs food at the minimum required for growth, AAFCO 1995, as a cost saving manufactuers do not aim for optimum). Even if you were happy with "minimum" levels fibre further reduces the chance of the dog getting this even lower. This is why they state "fibre may help digestion". Will help in omnivores with their slower system that gets bunged up, absolutely won't help a carnivore. It's a cost saver.

Yep the more oil the more fat your dog will store. Absolutely nothing to do with the protein though.

I'm not sure if you were recommending to lower the protein content with the advice for the working dog. There is never ever a situation when you should lower the dogs protein content. Your alternative is carbohydrates which the dog not only doesn't require but his little pancreas has to produce first enough amylase to digest it all (when it's used to producing tiny amounts, now it makes up 50% of the diet) then enough insulin to balance soaring blood sugars. No wonder pancreatitis and diabetes in through the roof.

Protein and a bit of fat is all your dog needs. Preferably in the form of fresh meat, cartilage and bone. For carnivores the easy rule of thumb is muscle builds muscle, cartilage builds cartilage, bone builds bone....

X1R wrote: »

Breed to becomes a factor.

Asides giant breeds requiring significantly less calcium in their food (around 0.67% of the diet as opposed to the 0.8% in dry food) and very little carbohydrate (grows the dog too quickly with fat, putting too much stress on joints etc), and basic stuff like flat face dogs needing a bit of care when getting the bones in, I'm not aware of a breed effect on diet. Certainly not for protein requirements. At no stage have breeders selected a dog for it's ability to say need 50% carbohydrate so there really shouldn't be.

Would appreciate any references you might have to indicate otherwise but I've been looking for three years full time now!

Birdnuts

When it comes to protein, sharp changes in diet can lead to yo-yoing weight and loss of condition. I learnt this to my cost when I moved house which meant I was not able to access my regular friendly butcher in terms of scraps etc.. The dried diet I changed too resulted in massive weight loss in my Lab in particular, to the point that at one stage I though he had tumours:(.

Thankfully the situation was resolved when I balanced things out again on the diet side after advice from my Vet.

DogsFirst

Birdnuts wrote: »

When it comes to protein, sharp changes in diet can lead to yo-yoing weight and loss of condition. I learnt this to my cost when I moved house which meant I was not able to access my regular friendly butcher in terms of scraps etc.. The dried diet I changed too resulted in massive weight loss in my Lab in particular, to the point that at one stage I though he had tumours:(.

Thankfully the situation was resolved when I balanced things out again on the diet side after advice from my Vet.

Again just to be clear his weight loss or gain had nothing to do with the protein or table scraps. By changing from a nice diet with fresh ingredients and lovely scraps to high carbohydrate crackers you would actually expect this massive surge in carbs to put more weight on an animal as carbs are high energy food, converted to sugar whatever isn't used is stored as fat. That's why athletes eat them before a race and use them whereas Americans (and the rest of us) eat them and get fat.

Your dog managed to lose weight however. This is indicative of a dietary intolerance. All was fine until the allergenic food containing gluten (wheat, barley) and cooked protein was introduced. This is evident in your dog with your comment of "loss if condition". Along with weight loss your dogs coat went thin, crispy and dry and may / nay not gave developed a skin condition. 40% of the protein your dog eats is used to maintain skin and coat condition (as they change so often). By cutting the protein you lose coat condition. The amount if dog shows u attend with proud owners walking around with dogs having poor dry coats, as if thats what the dogs coat is supposed to look like. Desperately adding primrise oil to "bring up the coat".

Along with poor condition your dog probably displayed the following - loose wet sloppy stools indicative of a cheap high fibre food or dietary intolerance (will have mucous on outside if latter), itchy sore red paws (dietary intol), ear infections (gluten causing wax build up), unsettled behaviour.

Your food was perfect. He's lucky he developed on fresh ingredients, growing his joints and organs strong before moving him onto the crackers. Lots of dogs aren't afforded the same luxury.

Your vet has probably found you an expensive bag of "sensitive" crackers that has the gluten removed. While his weight had returned it will be in the form of fat and not lean muscle mass, which protein builds, hence weight lifters, athletes and humans in general focus on it instead of carbs for weight gain.

Birdnuts

DogsFirst wrote: »

Again just to be clear his weight loss or gain had nothing to do with the protein or table scraps. By changing from a nice diet with fresh ingredients and lovely scraps to high carbohydrate crackers you would actually expect this massive surge in carbs to put more weight on an animal as carbs are high energy food, converted to sugar whatever isn't used is stored as fat. That's why athletes eat them before a race and use them whereas Americans (and the rest of us) eat them and get fat.

Your dog managed to lose weight however. This is indicative of a dietary intolerance. All was fine until the allergenic food containing gluten (wheat, barley) and cooked protein was introduced. This is evident in your dog with your comment of "loss if condition". Along with weight loss your dogs coat went thin, crispy and dry and may / nay not gave developed a skin condition. 40% of the protein your dog eats is used to maintain skin and coat condition (as they change so often). By cutting the protein you lose coat condition. The amount if dog shows u attend with proud owners walking around with dogs having poor dry coats, as if thats what the dogs coat is supposed to look like. Desperately adding primrise oil to "bring up the coat".

Along with poor condition your dog probably displayed the following - loose wet sloppy stools indicative of a cheap high fibre food or dietary intolerance (will have mucous on outside if latter), itchy sore red paws (dietary intol), ear infections (gluten causing wax build up), unsettled behaviour.

Your food was perfect. He's lucky he developed on fresh ingredients, growing his joints and organs strong before moving him onto the crackers. Lots of dogs aren't afforded the same luxury.

Your vet has probably found you an expensive bag of "sensitive" crackers that has the gluten removed. While his weight had returned it will be in the form of fat and not lean muscle mass, which protein builds, hence weight lifters, athletes and humans in general focus on it instead of carbs for weight gain.

Thanx for that very thorough reply DF:) - think I'll post here before spending a fortune at the Vets from now on:D;)

Ronnie Beck

@Dogs first and the lads

Some more questions all at once now the proteins sorted:D

Would a dog become hard mouthed/ or just start eating a shot bird etc. if you fed him game he had retrieved himself? (even from the freezer)

Do you know if feeding a dog red meat would tend to make them a little more tired and sluggish on a days hunting, much like myself after a steak dinner. What would be the best diet before a big days hunting. Would you give them something light like fish and bit of rice? Bit confused on the carbs thing (Any? when? how much?). Are there any carbs you should steer clear of - oats pasta spuds etc.

Is to much fat bad for a dog? The scraps I get from the butcher are about 1/5 fatty pieces.

Any point in removing skin and fur, from a nutritional point of view, from a rabbit before feeding them. (I do this anyway do discourage a hard mouth, but one of my dogs doesn't hunt).

terminator2

buy mince in lidl / aldi cheap and plenty of it , gundogs will burn off fat rapid during the hunting season

DogsFirst

Birdnuts wrote: »

Thanx for that very thorough reply DF:) - think I'll post here before spending a fortune at the Vets from now on:D;)

Not sure about that but in general I'd have to say I'd totally agree. We're too quick to reach for the chemists pot. Theres so many doggy people out there with brilliant remedies, food ideas, tips and tricks that vets are not putting out there. But you can't replace a good vet in fairness.

Unfortunately dog nutrition only features in two very short modules in five years in college, in this they cover 5 major animal groups. These courses are now using biased literature. It's fair to say their knowledge of dietary intolerance cannot be improved without further study, and this is not happening according to the highest sources. People say "oh you're one of them" at first but the facts are there, dry food sales are declining and fresh sky rocketing (google search "euromonitor pet food report summary 2010", very interesting read).

Intolerance is as complicated as it easy, don't feed any weird stuff. Cereal / cooked gack / plant protein / chemicals are weird for a dog.

Mauser 308

Dogsfirst, I would be interested to hear what you think of Orijen dog food. I try my best to use fresh ingredients ie meat, bones, veg etc. But I was searching for a good dry feed for times when I am traveling with work etc. I have been using the 6fish for the last month and find it great as a subsitute. But it is dam expensive. €87 for 13kg bag.

DogsFirst

Ronnie Beck wrote: »

@Dogs first and the lads

Some more questions all at once now the proteins sorted:D

Would a dog become hard mouthed/ or just start eating a shot bird etc. if you fed him game he had retrieved himself? (even from the freezer)

Do you know if feeding a dog red meat would tend to make them a little more tired and sluggish on a days hunting, much like myself after a steak dinner. What would be the best diet before a big days hunting. Would you give them something light like fish and bit of rice? Bit confused on the carbs thing (Any? when? how much?). Are there any carbs you should steer clear of - oats pasta spuds etc.

Is to much fat bad for a dog? The scraps I get from the butcher are about 1/5 fatty pieces.

Any point in removing skin and fur, from a nutritional point of view, from a rabbit before feeding them. (I do this anyway do discourage a hard mouth, but one of my dogs doesn't hunt).

Thats a lot of question, try separate in smaller posts!!

Feeding meat will absolutely certainly not effect your dogs training, it improves focus, calmness and behaviour making the lessons go in quicker. I can say this with some experience having trained hundreds of pups for guide dogs, the first two years on dry the second two years on fresh. The dogs will learn that's for you, this is for me. Dog's learn that from day 1 in your house, it's the same with food on counters, in bins, sheepdogs eating sheep, guide dogs not eating stuff off supermarket shelves. I haven't seen it effect a retrievers soft mouth yet, especially if you never feed him game. However if you feed him game now and again, who knows what a hungry lab will do. There's no accounting for it. Still I think a good trainer with some nice sausage will be more appealing than pulling the feathers off a crappy bird....

Dogs are carnivores, they function better on the nutrition gained from meat, not slower! Their acidic short fast unsacculated system processes the meal rapidly. It slows you down as your system is slower, it takes longer to get around, so you feel full for longer, slowing you down.

Best diet is always a high fresh meat diet (80%), perhaps a little cooked veg. Fresh chicken on the bone and oily fish best (buy mackerel by 10kg from factory for cheap) best for working dogs as they have the best fatty acids and proteins for a carnivore. Boil 2kg of veg at a time and use left over water to boil a little rice / potatoes / quinoa.

A little amount of carbs (10%) will give your dogs a sugar boost before work, I wouldn't recomend them any other time. Dogs can make their own. The only reason they are in dry food is a cheap additive. THey are linked to many chronic illness we see today (see previous posts). While they certainly don't need it there may be no harm pre work. Not too much though. Oats have phytic acid (like most cereals) which binds zinc, calcium and a few others from the food. Not recomended every day. Wheat / barley / rye are absolutely not recommended at any time so no pasta either (wheat). These contain gluten and even in the smallest quantity (such as in pet store treats) you need to treat gluten like a nut allergy in all dogs.

20% fat is fine for a working dog, just don't make it every day. More fat today, less tmrw. Balance over time, don't worry about it. You eat a chipper one night, a salad the next.

Dogs require fibre in their diet but not the plant kind as manufacturers try to convince you ("may" help digestion) which absorbs water. Dogs have no requirement for it and it causes sloppy poos and malabsorbtion by speeding up the digesta too quick. It's a cheap filler. That said other fibre like hair and fur probably does have a benefit. It makes up most of a carnivores scat which no doubt helps anal glands, scrubs intestines free of parasites etc. If it's in their natural diet they likely require it. But to discourage a hard mouth, it might be a good idea to make him less "rabbit like"!!! He'll still smell rabbit though. Interesting this one, let me know how you get on.

DogsFirst

Mauser 308 wrote: »

Dogsfirst, I would be interested to hear what you think of Orijen dog food. I try my best to use fresh ingredients ie meat, bones, veg etc. But I was searching for a good dry feed for times when I am traveling with work etc. I have been using the 6fish for the last month and find it great as a subsitute. But it is dam expensive. €87 for 13kg bag.

Hi Mauser, theres a thread on orijen food someplace that we all got in on, some good advice there. To sum: orijen is up there as it contains 70% animal protein, some veg and no cereal. As a stop gap, this is one of the foods that would do it. But it's ridiculously over priced, as your €6.50/kg example above shows (and actually €10 per kg for smaller bags!!!) you might as well bring him to the restaurant at night time and order him a steak.

A cheaper stop gap could be any dry food that has no gluten (wheat / barley / rye) and the most protein you can find. When you go away bring a good stock of tins of sardines (40c aldi), tins of pink salmon (400g, €1.39 lidly) etc. Travelling is a problem alright but this will tide him over until you can get back to the fresh ingredients.

Tip: don't buy the large bags of food if you're adding your own bits. Studies show (refs on request) that dust mites and other baddies will be rife in an open bag after two weeks. Really antigenic stuff. On top of this fats naturally go rancid and unstable vitamins like B, C and E plummet to air exposure (and the bag is already 6mths old before it sits on your petstore shelf....). Buy smaller bags. Absolute rip off but bigger stores are always doing 2 for 1. Look out for the sale and stock up.

Ronnie Beck

Thanks DF for your help.


@ mauser
One of those camping ice boxes is my plan for travelling about. Depends on circumstances though. Somewhere to thaw it out etc.
That orijen is some price. Vacuum packing was another option I was considering. A small machine cost about the same as a bag of that stuff. Was gonna get one for fillets of meat and fish for myself anyway. There seems to be a lidl/aldi everywhere nowadays. good for chicken, mince and veg.

thelurcher

Interesting posts DogsFirst - must have a proper read off them later.

I've been feeding my dogs chicken carcasses for the last 5 years - great feeding. I throw in a few nuts as well - the better quality ones or at least they're dearer anyway.

Two things I wonder about -
- I thought it's a bad idea to feed too high a percentage of raw meet to a young dog - poor for their development due to the amount of calcium it takes to process it?
- I don't think changing to a fresh food source will necessarily decrease the rick of cancers and the like. There's plenty of risk from fish, chicken etc. too unfortunately and obviously the environment in general - working dogs aren't fussy about where they drink from.

DogsFirst

thelurcher wrote: »

Interesting posts DogsFirst - must have a proper read off them later.

I've been feeding my dogs chicken carcasses for the last 5 years - great feeding. I throw in a few nuts as well - the better quality ones or at least they're dearer anyway.

Two things I wonder about -
- I thought it's a bad idea to feed too high a percentage of raw meet to a young dog - poor for their development due to the amount of calcium it takes to process it?
- I don't think changing to a fresh food source will necessarily decrease the rick of cancers and the like. There's plenty of risk from fish, chicken etc. too unfortunately and obviously the environment in general - working dogs aren't fussy about where they drink from.

Young dogs are young carnivores, they need more fresh meat than anyone! The excess protein myth is simply that, a total fallicy, established long ago (1986 was the first time a dog was referred to as an omnivore in text, Thurston 1996). And fresh meat like chicken and fish with their bones has all the natural and highly absorbable calcium your growing dog needs. Better still the cartilage of said meat builds healthy cartilage (in general for carnivores bones build bones, cartilage builds cartilage, muscle builds muscle, eyes build eyes etc). Anyone that says otherwise just ask them for some non-industry literature to support their argument. It doesn't exist. Get it in there! Lots of past posts cover the excess protein myth. For more detail on the matter (and references) just PM me.

Strongly disagree re fresh food cancer quote. Decreasing the amount of carbohydrate (strongly linked to cancer), cutting out foreign proteins to your dog (antigens) such as gluten and plant protein (linked to cancer in dogs), cooked highly processed meat (strongly linked to cancer) and food additives (strongly linked to cancers). Google search any of these quotes. Cutting any one (and especially all three) from your diet will decrease significantly your chance of getting cancer. Not sure how fresh fish and chicken, a food we have evolved to eat, certainly the dog, will cause you cancer (unless you cook them), would appreciate some literature on the point if you have any.

Re drinking from puddles at the side of the road. Agree there! I thought with their super sensitive nose they would smell the chemicals but apparently this is not the case. Recommend not allowing your dog to drink these ir from stagnant pools near farms. But if you're afraid of chemicals, the ones they put on human crops are far less dangerous than the ones bouying the nutritional content of your dry food, and make it to our gut in far less quantity.

DogsFirst

Ronnie Beck wrote: »

Thanks DF for your help.


@ mauser
One of those camping ice boxes is my plan for travelling about. Depends on circumstances though. Somewhere to thaw it out etc.
That orijen is some price. Vacuum packing was another option I was considering. A small machine cost about the same as a bag of that stuff. Was gonna get one for fillets of meat and fish for myself anyway. There seems to be a lidl/aldi everywhere nowadays. good for chicken, mince and veg.

Good idea..little vaccum packing machines!! Never thought of that. Wonder can you get 'em cheap.......

Ronnie Beck

DogsFirst wrote: »

Good idea..little vaccum packing machines!! Never thought of that. Wonder can you get 'em cheap.......

They were in lidl a few years ago hopefully they'll pop up again.
Some on ebay to for cheap 50 - 100 but you have to be carefull about the price of the bags too. Some models work with normal freezer bags.
There is an old fishermans trick where you put a normal ziplock bag under water to push all the air out and then close it. Handy for bait and fillets. Make sure to dry the outside of the bags before you freeze it though or they all stick together and to the freezer.

DogsFirst

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

Without knowing the science behind it this is what I was getting at. Protein to carbs to fat as opposed to protein to fat.

Would you feed a whole meat diet & if so what type would you recommend & quantities?? Very interesting.

Ahhhh grand just wanted it to be clear. It's a really common, really confused topic in vets / breeders / owners worldwide. So much pseudo science out there that you have some crazy myths being pushed as fact. Like peoples Rotties needing 23% protein, anymore and they get sick etc. Of all the myths I really don't know how they got away with the whole "too much protein is bad" in dogs! Thurston (1996) has a great book where she pin points the time (1986) when manufacturers first started with this line of argument in their text. I'd say they were watching through their fingers as they clicked the send button on that article, holding their breath waiting for the backlash. As it slips through the rot sets in. Funny, and very very profitable, but tragic for dogs.

So protein can be used by dogs to form carbohydrates if they require them, but won't if it doesn't. So they won't get fat from protein unless they need to. On the other hand all the excess carbs stuffed into them in dry food (50-60% of their diet, double what we as omnivores are meant to eat) is converted directly to fat (that what isn't used).

In humans protein is never converted to carbs, humans can't do it, we just eat some plants instead.

For both of us, protein is never responsible for an unwanted fat build up.

Yup as a carnivore I'd be recommending your dog gets a raw meat diet alright. Around 70% fresh meat 10% fresh bone (oily fish, chicken pieces on the bones, cheap mince, organs, fish heads, whatever), maybe 10-20% cooked veg (not absolutely necessary but will make sure you're keeping the nutrients at optimum). 10% carbs (rice / spuds / quinoa, no wheat / barley / rye ever) if you have working dogs and they have a job the next day. That's it in a nutshell. Much cheaper, so much better for your dog, slash vet bills and deeply gratifying etc etc. Wouldn't give the other stuff to the mother in law. That's just my opinion. I think the bottom line is, when someone recommends dry food, ask them why they reckon it's better than fresh ingredients. Why is the dog the only animal on the planet that benefits from a highly processed modified diet? I love talking to people about this!

Ronnie Beck

started cooking the veg and putting in a small bit of rice with her food last night and the zip is back in her again today, she was on a flyer, got loads of tricky retrieves done. cheers red meat wasn't the problem at all, like I thought:o.

DogsFirst

Ronnie Beck wrote: »

started cooking the veg and putting in a small bit of rice with her food last night and the zip is back in her again today, she was on a flyer, got loads of tricky retrieves done. cheers red meat wasn't the problem at all, like I thought:o.

Great good news, delighted for her. The extra b vitamins in there from the veg (and fresh meat) go straight to the focus centre.

Not too much veg though (20% ish), chop / dice if possible to help her digest it. Majority fresh chicken / oily fish / red meat and bones!

There's always days when they just couldn't be arsed though isn't there! When I was being trained up I learnt under this excellent English instructor. She used to always say "bloody retrievers" in a wonderful english accent. They're so willful, brilliant craic to work with. If you're not up to it, retrievers (and maybe golden doodles?!) are the first ones to find you out.

When you're training a guide dog they have to walk across the road bullet straight from kerb to kerb (shortest and therefore safest distance for the client). Retrievers though would anticipate what was coming next (like a left to the centra) and instead of walking straight across the road would veer to the left. You could actually see him pause and do a quick side glance to me before tucking the ears and deciding "no I'm going to go for it" with a smile on his face! Simple but it sums them up. Great dogs.