Undertaking? Now you know not too....

Mycroft H

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jhcz5qLm-c

While I don't do it myself, I'm still staggered to see the amount of cyclists who do this.


Hopefully the RSA stick sensible adverts like this on

victorcarrera

Fair enough a suicide maneuver for a cyclist and they should not have been there but;
1.Even I could see the cyclist approaching in the mirror. Apparently this behavior is quite common so why are the HGV drivers not more aware if they know they are going to turn left especially if he had just overtaken the cyclist .
2. I didn't hear the indicator flashing either which may have discouraged the cyclist if it was on?

Paco Rodriguez

victorcarrera wrote: »

Fair enough a suicide maneuver for a cyclist and they should not have been there but;
1.Even I could see the cyclist approaching in the mirror. Apparently this behavior is quite common so why are the HGV drivers not more aware if they know they are going to turn left especially if he had just overtaken the cyclist .
2. I didn't hear the indicator flashing either which may have discouraged the cyclist if it was on?

you could see the cyclist? Of course, since the camera is at a different angle to the drivers position.

Plastik

Indicator is very audible to my ears.

radiat

victorcarrera wrote: »

Fair enough a suicide maneuver for a cyclist and they should not have been there but;
1.Even I could see the cyclist approaching in the mirror. Apparently this behavior is quite common so why are the HGV drivers not more aware if they know they are going to turn left especially if he had just overtaken the cyclist .
2. I didn't hear the indicator flashing either which may have discouraged the cyclist if it was on?

ah come on. I don't think you can start making excuses for that one

omg lollol

from what ive read on here you can make an excuse for anything:)

Mycroft H

victorcarrera wrote: »

Fair enough a suicide maneuver for a cyclist and they should not have been there but;
1.Even I could see the cyclist approaching in the mirror. Apparently this behavior is quite common so why are the HGV drivers not more aware if they know they are going to turn left especially if he had just overtaken the cyclist .
2. I didn't hear the indicator flashing either which may have discouraged the cyclist if it was on?

I'd imagine that camera angle has something to do with it. If you look again, the cyclist was visible in the mirror for all of 3-4 seconds. After that, he is inside the blind spot.

As the driver moves off to turn left, he visibly checks both his mirrors so its not do with poor observation on the drivers part here.


And if you turn the volume up enough, sure enough there is the tick tick tick of the indicators.

victorcarrera

Plastik wrote: »

Indicator is very audible to my ears.

OK on replay. (Im on laptop)

msg11

As a car driver and a cyclist, when I do come across trucks on my bike like the one in the video.

I either stop at the rear end of the truck and let it pass threw the junction.

I either go up on the inside of the truck and then go out in front of the cab so the driver can see me, although this would be rare and only done if I felt I wasn't safe at the back of the truck.

Never ever hang around the side of a truck or even a car on either side.

Yes I understand , we all must respect other road users, but when you make a mistake with a truck that weights 1000's of KGs there's only going to be one outcome.

Also just because and indicator is on doesn't mean the driver will follow threw with that intention same can also be said when there is not one on at all.

victorcarrera

omg lollol wrote: »

from what ive read on here you can make an excuse for anything:)

I Don't agree. My point (not entirely applicable in this incident) is that when two or more village idiots meet at the crossroads, there is a much higher probability of an accident than if they passed at different times.

@ paco rodriguez: you could see the cyclist? Of course, since the camera is at a different angle to the drivers position.

Convex (Wide angle) + Kerb side view mirrors have been in use since about 1989 and are compulsory since March 2009 on post 2000 HGV's . (They are not flat).
It looks like this truck has both fitted, it's just that the kerb side mirror is maladjusted and seems to show the same view as the wide angle mirror.

Zen0

Very sobering, but I wouldn't have been at the side of that truck. Either behind it or out in front where it can see me. I wouldn't even do that with a car. What bothers me is that I am aware of a lot of cyclists who would not be that savvy.

omg lollol

victorcarrera wrote: »

I Don't agree.

Thats hardly suprising:pac:

Beasty

omg lollol wrote: »

Thats hardly suprising:pac:

If you wish to contribute to the discussion, please do so. If you are only here to try and wind genuine contributors up you can expect to have your posting privilges removed

Thanks

Beasty

greenmat

The driver is very much in the wrong here but this video is a great reminder to all how easily it can all go wrong. His speed from the junction as he turns combined with his lack of observation is very poor. As stated before the cyclist is clearly visable in the mirrors. Must be said the cyclist was a total idiot for positioning himself were he did. The way I always think of incidents like this is, the cyclist as an Adult should know better but imagine the same incident with a child on a bike who knows no better, makes a mistake and pays with his life. When you drive a HGV you must be so carefully as cyclists or pedestrians don't get 2nd chances if you f**k up.

Steve_hooo

Did it happen for real or was it stage for the campaign?

Kintarō Hattori

Steve_hooo wrote: »

Did it happen for real or was it stage for the campaign?

I think it's real as you can hear and see a pedestrian running and shouting at the driver towards the end of the clip. The driver also says a somewhat surprised 'What?'.

Bunnyhopper

I think educating people about the risks of blindspots, particularly around HGVs, is vital. All large vehicles should be required to have appropriate mirrors properly installed. If we're getting more people cycling this becomes even more important because it is inexperienced cyclists who are more likely to make this sort of mistake.

An important related point is that many cycle lanes are idiotically positioned at junctions around Dublin because they funnel cyclists into precisely the wrong place. I'd guess that at many junctions the footprint of the cycle lane and ASL box matches the HGV blindspot quite well. When you have a single mandatory cycle lane positioned to the left of a left-only lane at a multilane junction you have a recipe for disaster, a recipe concocted by the very authorities who are simultaneously telling cyclists not to go into those positions. An experienced cyclist will have the sense to ignore the rules and the idiotic infrastructure and stay safe.

Mycroft H

greenmat wrote: »

The driver is very much in the wrong here but this video is a great reminder to all how easily it can all go wrong. His speed from the junction as he turns combined with his lack of observation is very poor. As stated before the cyclist is clearly visable in the mirrors. Must be said the cyclist was a total idiot for positioning himself were he did. The way I always think of incidents like this is, the cyclist as an Adult should know better but imagine the same incident with a child on a bike who knows no better, makes a mistake and pays with his life. When you drive a HGV you must be so carefully as cyclists or pedestrians don't get 2nd chances if you f**k up.

Firstly let me guess, you have never drove a HGV? I occasionally drive rigid lorries (C1 class) and I'm learning the articlulated class (C class). The cab is much higher then a car, and the apparent speed by eye looks much faster from somone that drives a car. My guess here is that he is less then 10kph, an acceptable speed for that sort of junction.

Secondly, the blind spot in a HGV is far far bigger then you realise. See here for a detailed explanitation.

http://www.lfgss.com/thread3072.html

As for being clearly visible in the mirrors? Nope, he was there for a 3-4 seconds. Driver could have paying attention to traffic on the right, straight ahead or to the left of the junction. All things he is also ment to do.

If you position yourself in the blindspot of a HGV when turning left and expect not to get hit, your daft. Its the equivilent of putting your hand in a dogs mouth and not expecting to get bit.

victorcarrera wrote:

Convex (Wide angle) + Kerb side view mirrors have been in use since about 1989 and are compulsory since March 2009 on post 2000 HGV's . (They are not flat).
It looks like this truck has both fitted, it's just that the kerb side mirror is maladjusted and seems to show the same view as the wide angle mirror.

Convex mirrors only do so much, and for the most part there incredibly hard to see cyclists in.

What happend here was the cyclist passed into the blindspot. Driver checked his mirrors, commited to the maneuver. Cyclist gets hit. Its hard to see how the driver was negligent in this case.

One solution to this is a camera system. While it will be sometime until there made compulsary, if ever, it can help eliminate most of the blindspots with HGVs

Paul Kiernan

I'd imagine it was staged. Nonetheless this sort of accident happens all too frequently. I'm inclined to agree with greenmat that the driver should be responsible for his vehicle including all blindspots. Maybe the cyclist's chain came off when the lights went green! It could happen to anyone.

thebullkf

Paul Kiernan wrote: »

I'd imagine it was staged. Nonetheless this sort of accident happens all too frequently. I'm inclined to agree with greenmat that the driver should be responsible for his vehicle including all blindspots. Maybe the cyclist's chain came off when the lights went green! It could happen to anyone.

Driver cannot be responsible for all blind spots, if the cyclist were as responsible we wouldn't have this type of accident.

If his chain broke then tough, if my chain broke, i'd make sure i wasn't in a compromising position- ie. never ever undertake a 4 wheeler.

victorcarrera

We all agree that the cyclist in this case was at fault what we are discussing is how the truck driver and the adjustment of the mirrors contributed to the cyclists death.
@ BX 19 That article was written in 2008, over a year previous to the EU directive on HGV mirrors. However it goes some way to proving my point.
In particular as it applies to this case refer to the dark green area to the left of the truck while stopped where the cyclist passes.
The driver in the video has 3 visual aids to view this area.
1. The large wide angle mirror (the upper one seems well adjusted)
2. The smaller kerb side mirror (the lower one is incorrectly oriented and only shows the same view as the upper mirror) This mirror should overlap the area covered by the upper mirror by max 1.5m and show the (blind spot) up to the front of the truck.
3. There is a 3rd mirror or fish eye lens on the top of the passenger window and you can see the cyclist pass through this view on his way to the front of the truck also.

Mirrors and cameras for the area in front of the truck are not covered by the EU directive and are optional.

IMO the truck driver contributed to the accident by allowing the truck to be driven with a defective kerb side mirror. A professional driver should know this and it should have been detected and fixed that morning.

Beasty

Steve_hooo wrote: »

Did it happen for real or was it stage for the campaign?

It's an official Boris/Transport for London video - there's no way they would be showing a real death in such a campaign

victorcarrera

Beasty wrote: »

It's an official Boris/Transport for London video - there's no way they would be showing a real death in such a campaign

In case it was staged then the lower mirror was deliberately set to hide the cyclist. Either way, a potent reminder to all road users who happen to view it.

greenmat

BX 19 wrote: »

Firstly let me guess, you have never drove a HGV? I occasionally drive rigid lorries (C1 class) and I'm learning the articlulated class (C class). The cab is much higher then a car, and the apparent speed by eye looks much faster from somone that drives a car. My guess here is that he is less then 10kph, an acceptable speed for that sort of junction.

Secondly, the blind spot in a HGV is far far bigger then you realise. See here for a detailed explanitation.

http://www.lfgss.com/thread3072.html

As for being clearly visible in the mirrors? Nope, he was there for a 3-4 seconds. Driver could have paying attention to traffic on the right, straight ahead or to the left of the junction. All things he is also ment to do.

If you position yourself in the blindspot of a HGV when turning left and expect not to get hit, your daft. Its the equivilent of putting your hand in a dogs mouth and not expecting to get bit.




Convex mirrors only do so much, and for the most part there incredibly hard to see cyclists in.

What happend here was the cyclist passed into the blindspot. Driver checked his mirrors, commited to the maneuver. Cyclist gets hit. Its hard to see how the driver was negligent in this case.

One solution to this is a camera system. While it will be sometime until there made compulsary, if ever, it can help eliminate most of the blindspots with HGVs

Sorry mate, I drive HGV class C every day in work. The driver IS at fault in this example. The cyclist contributed signifcantly to his death by placing himself in a very dangerous position. If you watch closly the cyclist is scooting himself along with his left foot on the ground inside the HGV when there is not enough room, very bad mistake. The driver pulled away very quickly when the lights changed without checking his mirrors. He is responsible to check all around his vehicle when making that turn and as I'm sure you know a left turn at a junction is for a HGV Driver one of the most dangerous maneuvers you encounter. You are told time and time again to check your mirrors and pay particular attension to the possibility of someone being in your blind spot something this driver payed little attension to. It's a grim reminder to us all, cyclists and drivers alike.