TI National Series 2012

bryangiggsy

Anybody any thoughts on the 2012 National Series races this year.

It seems a few races lost their ranking?
Point system still the same?
Races to avoid?

My own thoughts were the big points will be is

Valentia,Athy,Dunmore,Kilkee & Athlone.

Big points u may ask ...whats he on about. One thing i have noticed over the last few years if an athlete is better than average they tend to get more points at these races because of the amt of entrants. But surely if there is more entrants it is harder to get points??? Not so. Am no mathemetician but heres what i believe. If a race contingent is split between 6 groups of athlete from 1 to 6 with 1 being the highest and 6 being the lowest...a larger group of 4,5 & 6 athletes will enter these races therefore increasing the points of the 1,2 & 3 athletes. Clear Examples of these races are Athy and Athlone were you would have a lot of first timers and a lot of high points for the better than average athlete.
Probably stating the obvious above but should be take into consideration when planning your season racing. And this is were the National Series is flawed. Miss any of the above races and your points total will suffer if you better than the average athlete.
Someone else can probably dig deeper into the system and explain this better.

B:D

Fazz

Hi B,

I was at the TI athlete assistance meeting and it was good to go through calendar last week.

One thing that came out of it was yes a couple of bigger races lose their NS ranking but there were genuine reasons and rules are rules.
TI to their credit listed these when posting up the NS races on Monday.

Shame as I was looking forward to Lough Neagh as sounded a good course.

But yeah, Valentia, Athy, Athlone, Kilkee are all must races for NS points if you're gunning for good ranking etc.
DCT and a few others also to a lesser extent.

You're theory is correct on the TI points system and higher points the more entries (that are TI registered).

Regarding the fairness, i had a similar opinion to you but on trying to think out a better system I now think it is fair.

Example - say winner/top 3 gets extra 1, 2 or 5 points each race, with their being so many races you'd nearly need to make them all, especially if a podium contender otherwise someone you beat by 1 point could be several ahead of you just because of race location.

Another option may be to award say 5 top races where winner/top 3 gets extra points. But this would reduce entry fields to other races even more and hurt people that couldn't make 1 or more of the races.

The only catch in the current system is you do need to do the main races with big points to maximise your score.
Otherwise you take your chances.

The good thing is you are in control with it being weighted on time finish.
So even if winning, it's in your interest to stay flat out to maximise points if down to such small amounts in differences which can happen.

There are a lot of races where winner gets 125 give or take, but yea Athy and Athlone see more rewards due to more TI member entries.

BTH

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Anybody any thoughts on the 2012 National Series races this year.

It seems a few races lost their ranking?
Point system still the same?
Races to avoid?

My own thoughts were the big points will be is

Valentia,Athy,Dunmore,Kilkee & Athlone.

Big points u may ask ...whats he on about. One thing i have noticed over the last few years if an athlete is better than average they tend to get more points at these races because of the amt of entrants. But surely if there is more entrants it is harder to get points??? Not so. Am no mathemetician but heres what i believe. If a race contingent is split between 6 groups of athlete from 1 to 6 with 1 being the highest and 6 being the lowest...a larger group of 4,5 & 6 athletes will enter these races therefore increasing the points of the 1,2 & 3 athletes. Clear Examples of these races are Athy and Athlone were you would have a lot of first timers and a lot of high points for the better than average athlete.
Probably stating the obvious above but should be take into consideration when planning your season racing. And this is were the National Series is flawed. Miss any of the above races and your points total will suffer if you better than the average athlete.
Someone else can probably dig deeper into the system and explain this better.

B:D

Valentia Athy and Athlone Oly (Sprint was Nat Champs) were easy points last year. I raced both Valentia and Kilkee, raced poorly in Valentia and well in Kilkee but much more points in Valentia. Kilkee generally has a very strong field meaning lower than normal points. Valentia is likely to see a much stronger field this year due to the national champs there, probably meaning less points most. My final position last year suffered because I didnt do Athy while everyone around me did and got ridiculous points.
Its definately a consideration when picking races. The smaller top heavy field means less points for anyone outside the top 20 in the NS overall imo.

littlemsfickle

Does nobody else think having the national sprint champs so early in the year is a poor move?

BTH

littlemsfickle wrote: »

Does nobody else think having the national sprint champs so early in the year is a poor move?

It being the very first NS race seems odd alright. Conditions like last year will make that race a complete lottery too!

Daz1214

was very surprised to see Valentia as the sprint champ race. I agree its too early into the season to hold a race of that importance. Athy or Athlone would have been the better option

catweazle

They should look at another middle distance National Championship race than Groomsport every 2nd year. Only 4 finishers under 5 hours last year surely tells its own story about the quality they attract

They should look at including Galway 70.3 seeing as they are going to make a killing on one day licences and Swinford rather than just alternating it between Kenmare and Groomsport every year. Tri an Mhi also!

griffin100

Surprised about Valentia as an NS race. On two of the last 3 years it's been badly affected by the weather; such an early year event is bound to be (although when I did it in 2010 it was around 23 degrees).

I agree with CW on the middle distance - Groomsport and Kenmare are not exactly central and they are very late in the year - an earlier race would be nicer

tunney

catweazle wrote: »

They should look at another middle distance National Championship race than Groomsport every 2nd year. Only 4 finishers under 5 hours last year surely tells its own story about the quality they attract

They should look at including Galway 70.3 seeing as they are going to make a killing on one day licences and Swinford rather than just alternating it between Kenmare and Groomsport every year. Tri an Mhi also!

They don't make a killing on ODLs. ODL money amazing goes out to the insurance.

Perhaps Swinford didn't apply? Not every race wants to be NC as it entails various rules and regulations that some organisers would prefer to avoid.

As for including Galway 70.30 - I personally would go to the AGM to rant if that happened. How could a race THAT expensive be the NC or in the NS? PLus based on what was heard from last year was it really NC or NS standard?

I don't like Groomsport and I would have the NC in kenmare every year rather than alternate.

promethius

Triathlon Ireland as an organization continue to have their collective heads up their ar$es
There are no sprint distance triathlons in the national series in connaught.
This is despite there being lots of solid clubs with high membership numbers and established events through all the counties of the province.
Mullaghmore was on the calendar, a 10 yr event which runs like clock work over a really nice course but no longer.
Disgraceful from a disappointing organization who don't seem to care much beyond elites and getting their wages.
(justified) rant over!

tunney

promethius wrote: »

Triathlon Ireland as an organization continue to have their collective heads up their ar$es
There are no sprint distance triathlons in the national series in connaught.
This is despite there being lots of solid clubs with high membership numbers and established events through all the counties of the province.
Mullaghmore was on the calendar, a 10 yr event which runs like clock work over a really nice course but no longer.
Disgraceful from a disappointing organization who don't seem to care much beyond elites and getting their wages.
(justified) rant over!

You know for a fact that mullaghmore applied for NS status?

Fazz

promethius wrote: »

Triathlon Ireland as an organization continue to have their collective heads up their ar$es
There are no sprint distance triathlons in the national series in connaught.
This is despite there being lots of solid clubs with high membership numbers and established events through all the counties of the province.
Mullaghmore was on the calendar, a 10 yr event which runs like clock work over a really nice course but no longer.
Disgraceful from a disappointing organization who don't seem to care much beyond elites and getting their wages.
(justified) rant over!

Misguided opinion.

My experience is TI do their best to have NS races within the criteria and conditions which are fair to all.
They have no reason to not provide fairness where possible.

TI posted the NS calendar along with details of a number of reasons being the criteria set for NS races.
I know they tried where possible to meet all locations and actually wanted more sprint races and locations.

This is not practical if criteria's are not met or even if clubs do not apply for NS status.

Fair play to TI for publishing the criteria at same time as NS calendar.

http://www.triathlonireland.com/index.php?id=107&nid=583

promethius

tunney wrote: »

You know for a fact that mullaghmore applied for NS status?

Never said they did. It's an example of a race on NS for years in the region which us connaught people were delighted to have in the region. It's no longer there. The reasons for which i am not aware of, please enlighten us if you know more i would be interested in that.

The very first item on the list of selection criteria is geography funnily enough.

Put yourself in a connaught triathlete's shoes and it does seem to be a case of "to hell or to connaught"

Travel is expensive, petrol and accomodation amongst other things so i think Triathlon Ireland could have accomodated us more.

bryangiggsy

promethius wrote: »

Never said they did. It's an example of a race on NS for years in the region which us connaught people were delighted to have in the region. It's no longer there. The reasons for which i am not aware of, please enlighten us if you know more i would be interested in that.

The very first item on the list of selection criteria is geography funnily enough.

Put yourself in a connaught triathlete's shoes and it does seem to be a case of "to hell or to connaught"

Travel is expensive, petrol and accomodation amongst other things so i think Triathlon Ireland could have accomodated us more.

Think Connaught has had its fair share of NS sprint distance triatlons in the past Mullaghmore, Salmon Run and Lough Key. Having said that Derry and Athlone are within a 2 hr drive are they not? Think your rant is unjustified.

BTH

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Think Connaught has had its fair share of NS sprint distance triatlons in the past Mullaghmore, Salmon Run and Lough Key. Having said that Derry and Athlone are within a 2 hr drive are they not? Think your rant is unjustified.

Technically, the majority of the Athlone Tri bike course is in Roscommon.

Daz1214

from what i heard and read, the national series calendar was decided on by a focus group of triathletes and was picked once the criteria was met so its probably not justified to rant solely at TI...athlone is hardly that far a spin from the west. Considering as well that the sprint championships are in Valentia this year, then that makes it hard for people on the east coast to make it to them

pauric1

National Series

Leinster 9 races
Munster 8 races
Ulster 4 races
Connacht 1 race

tunney

pauric1 wrote: »

National Series

Leinster 9 races
Munster 8 races
Ulster 4 races
Connacht 1 race

Population

Leinster 2,501,208
Ulster 1,954,727
Munster 1,243,726
Connacht 542,039

pauric1

Triathletes??????

tunney

pauric1 wrote: »

Triathletes??????

Clubs

Leinster 23
Munster 18
Ulster 13
Connacht 12

Daz1214

obviously those are the races that have met the necessary criteria, i dont think its a conspiracy by TI

bryangiggsy

If i could do the races i wanted heres my drive time

Valentia 5 hrs
Athy 1.5hrs
Waterford 3hrs
Kilkee 4.5hrs
athlone 2hrs
dublin 1 hr

And i live on the east coast

Huff n Puff

There isn't any conspiracy from Triathlon Ireland with regards to what races got into the National Series this year. They have guidelines and if they are not met then you don't get in. They don't hold personal grudges against anyone. They have a tough job selecting what races are to get in and there are bound to be some races that are disappointed.

However, I do think that certain criteria could be relaxed in the interest of promoting the sport across the island. I know if I was from Mayo, that I would be slightly annoyed with the lack of NS sprint races in Connaught. I think it is in the interest of Triathlon Ireland to make sure that one or more races out of Mullaghmore, Rosses Point, Salmon Run, Lough Key etc make it onto the list each year. If they need help or encouragement to get them in then give it.

If the disqualification is from something as little as the non payment of a fee then work with the club to get it paid. Most clubs are not run like businesses and invoices can go unpaid; not out of badness or an unwillingness to pay but often through oversight. We are all volunteers trying to do our best but mistakes happen.

I was told over the phone that Triathlon Ireland were short Sprint races for the National Series this year. Now surely it is in their best interest to get more sprint races through? If that means letting races enter after clearing any outstanding fines then surely it is a win win? Triathletes around Ireland get an extra race to choose from and Triathlon Ireland get enough NS sprint races for their calendar.

I was told that if they let one race back in after paying the outstanding fees then they will have to let them all in. My answer to that would be - let them all back in so and choose the best one or two. Triathlon Ireland get their unpaid fees, TI get a full NS sprint distance race calendar, the triatheletes get an extra race, the clubs are happy.

Disclaimer: I am involved with the North Tipp Sprint and our application was rightly rejected due to the non payment of a bill for €65 for 'extra competitor fees'. We put on a good race each year and last year when other National Series races were hiking up their entry fees, we reduced ours significantly. Two years ago, it was Triathlon Ireland that rang us up looking for us to put in an application to become a National Series race. We helped them out on that occasion. Miss an additional payment and out we go. That's tough love for you, but I suppose we all knew the rules and at the end of the day have nobody else to blame but ourselves.

Due to the early date of our race I did think it would be advantageous to have at least 1 NS sprint race taking place before the NS sprint national champs but that argument didn't sway TI either. In fairness to them, they are just sticking to the rules and I was just chancing my arm!

Speaking objectively - would I expect our race to be back in the NS in 2013? probably not. I think the geography argument counts against us and Connaught would probably deserve a NS series sprint race before us.

pauric1

Good points huffnpuff. I'd like to go into more details about the selection procedure but I'm awaiting a reply from TI to an email i sent them last thursday. Out of courtesy to them i'll wait for that reply before i comment any further here

P

promethius

so munster have 8 times as many NS events as connaught and 1.5 times the numbers of triathlon clubs according to what's in this thread. if a connaught triathlete isn't put out by that, well..

good points by huff and puff, i don't think there's a consiracy from TI either, just overlooking the importance of a region with a lot of triathlon activity and growth.

triathlon ireland getting a lot of membership subsriptions and one day licences from this region and from having spoken to a few people over the weekend about this, there are a lot of triathletes very annoyed.

Huff n Puff

pauric1: The TI office is on Christmas break so you might be waiting a while

Just to expand on a couple of NS race selection points:

I don't have a problem with the vast majority of the criteria used by TI for race selection. Most of the criteria seem totally reasonable. There are issues with one or two though:

Should this rule 'Only 1 NS race on a weekend' apply to both Triathlone, TriAthy and Brian Boru?

Surely they should be seen as 2 or 3 NS races on the same weekend (or day). Maybe the rule they need to work off is 'Only 1 NS race on a weekend (one race can have 1, 2 or 3 National series events on the same day and time)'.

With a race like TriAthlone you will have the vast majority of top rated triathletes doing the National Champs. That means that the Sprint event will be very easy to pick up NS points at. In reality most people are better off avoiding the National Champs (no bonus points anymore) and instead do the sprint, as the sprint is bound to have high numbers involved. You will probably come out with more points. Would it not make more sense to have only one NS race at Athlone and give the sprint race to another race?

Is it fair to give TriAthy 3 National Series events and prevent other areas from even having one? Surely having 3 NS events on the same weekend dilutes the quality of each of those races? What is wrong with taking the sprint from TriAthy and giving it to a race in Connaught (apologies to TriAthy organisers if you think I am picking on you!)

Race entry fee

Is it possible to get some clarity on this? What fee would disqualify you from hosting a race? Would this fee requirement automatically stop Ironman Galway from ever being part of the NS? This is a good idea if you are trying to control costs but it would be good to know (for transparency) roughly what figures you are working off.


Post race meals

This requirement seems a little bit odd to me. The expenses in triathlons keep rising and rising and this expense is simply passed onto the competitors through increased fees. The country isn't exactly awash with money at the moment so why should we be requiring this? Does food such as sandwiches, buns, biscuits etc count as a meal? If so then it is not as bad a requirement. This requirement leads to increased race entry fees (see point above). Kilkee last year stopped doing after race meals (I presume it was due to cost control).

tunney

Huff n Puff wrote: »

pauric1: The TI office is on Christmas break so you might be waiting a while

Just to expand on a couple of NS race selection points:

Huff n Puff wrote: »

Is it fair to give TriAthy 3 National Series events and prevent other areas from even having one? Surely having 3 NS events on the same weekend dilutes the quality of each of those races?

Was an upper limit of the number of NS races state?

Huff n Puff wrote: »

What is wrong with taking the sprint from TriAthy and giving it to a race in Connaught (apologies to TriAthy organisers if you think I am picking on you!)

Can we clarify that *any* races applied for NS/NC status from the region didn't get it?
Furthermore if some did which races actually met the criteria?

Huff n Puff wrote: »

Race entry fee

Is it possible to get some clarity on this? What fee would disqualify you from hosting a race? Would this fee requirement automatically stop Ironman Galway from ever being part of the NS? This is a good idea if you are trying to control costs but it would be good to know (for transparency) roughly what figures you are working off.

I remember a specific race (actually one from Connacht) caused uproar for being selected as a NC race as the entry fee was higher than the norm and furthermore none of the fee "stayed in the sport". Members went nuts for 2 or 3 years as well when it as a PL race (before the NS).

Huff n Puff wrote: »

Post race meals

This requirement seems a little bit odd to me. The expenses in triathlons keep rising and rising and this expense is simply passed onto the competitors through increased fees. The country isn't exactly awash with money at the moment so why should we be requiring this? Does food such as sandwiches, buns, biscuits etc count as a meal? If so then it is not as bad a requirement. This requirement leads to increased race entry fees (see point above). Kilkee last year stopped doing after race meals (I presume it was due to cost control).

Depends what races want to do with the money, some do some food, some pocket the cash, some mismanage. I thought the idea was the NS was meant to be a series of events that were bigger than the races. An atmosphere so to speak. My 2c on the food.


Is it not just possible that either (a) race organisers didn't want the hassle of the increased demands of NC and NS and didn't apply or (b) they wanted the guaranteed entries that come from NC and NS but didn't want, or couldn't, meet the criteria?

Huff n Puff

All the points you make are good David but I just see things a little differently (probably due to bitterness at our race being left out this year!)

Was an upper limit of the number of NS races state?

Sorry, not sure what exactly you are asking. They do say 1 NS race per weekend here http://www.triathlonireland.com/index.php?id=107&nid=583. Personally, I would consider TriAthy to be 3 races on one weekend. I am pretty sure that there is an upper limit to the total amount of National Series races possible. I recall getting an email from TI stating some reasons two weeks ago but can't seem to find it.

Is it not just possible that either (a) race organisers didn't want the hassle of the increased demands of NC and NS and didn't apply or (b) they wanted the guaranteed entries that come from NC and NS but didn't want, or couldn't, meet the criteria?

Yes that could well be possible but I will add:
"With over 40 applications we needed to have a firm process for deciding, which included a focus group panel of TI members. The most common reason a race was not successful was due to it having outstanding fees from it's 2011 event." statement from TI. This seems to suggest that quite a few races were rejected (roughly 17). It also suggests that quality wasn't the main issue - it was just an unpaid fee.

The non payment of fees seems like a self imposed rule that can easily be loosened for reasons I gave in an earlier post. I don't think anyone would complain if this rule was loosened provided the club paid outstanding fees and the quality of the race was good. This would make a lot of races available for selection. In our case, I made a bank transfer 5 minutes after finding out we had an overdue bill but still no luck.

Personally, I don't see how 17 races (rough calculation) could be denied while Athy gets 3 NS races. Instead of Brian Boru having 2, TriAthlone having 2 and TriAthy having 3 we could have 7 different quality (non diluted) races scattered around the country. Surely, if you are promoting the National Series as 'something bigger than races' then you want all the top triathletes competing against each other in the one NS race?

If a whole province goes without a NS Sprint race then there is a problem and in my opinion TI should try to address it and make sure they are represented in 2012 (they are probably working on this for 2013). Why are races not applying from Connaught or why are they getting rejected? If it is for fees then talk to each other and sort it out and put the race in the calendar.

I don't want it to seem like I am coming down hard on Triathlon Ireland as I would normally be one of the first to praise the effort they put in. They do a lot of great work and deserve plenty of credit for it. The development of triathlon since I first started (2001) has been astounding and TI need to take a lot of credit for that. That doesn't mean that I can't disagree with them on an issue from time to time! I am sure they welcome the debate.