Suicide, I dont understand

shannon_tek

It's something i cant wrap my head around. im not trolling its a general question as a mod once gave out to me cause they were personally affected by a comment i wrote about myself. which i found very offensive

So my question is. What is this about Suicide? It's seen as wrong, a criminal offence. But in my opinion Its not upto you to judge, it will never be upto you.
Ok i can see from the point you dont EVER want to lose someone. But Its a persons right if they want to take themselves. Horrible i know. but i would probably hate anyone who would try and save me. What gives you the right to stop me. Then your claimed to be mentally unstable. Which just makes matters 500 times worse.

People get very up in arms about it. they shouldn't. If it was seen as a way of a natural death would it be different? After being in the position after seeing a friend go through it. I realise i dont understand. I just dont understand why its a 'criminal offence' practically.

Cavehill Red

It's not seen as a natural death because it isn't one. It's a homicide, specifically a self-homicide.

It's not a criminal offence either. It's been decriminalised since 1993.

shannon_tek

Cavehill Red wrote: »

It's not seen as a natural death because it isn't one. It's a homicide, specifically a self-homicide.

It's not a criminal offence either. It's been decriminalised since 1993.

I know that. but im saying in the eyes of other humans its seemed like those things. Not the natural death part. I was just asking would it be looked upon differently if it was seen like that

Cavehill Red

shannon_tek wrote: »

I know that. but im saying in the eyes of other humans its seemed like those things. Not the natural death part. I was just asking would it be looked upon differently if it was seen like that

The stigma that once attached to suicide has largely if not entirely been lifted in recent years. I don't think it is of benefit to 'normalise' suicide such as viewing it as a natural death would achieve. I think it is more productive to try to address the causes of suicide.

shannon_tek

Cavehill Red wrote: »

The stigma that once attached to suicide has largely if not entirely been lifted in recent years. I don't think it is of benefit to 'normalise' suicide such as viewing it as a natural death would achieve. I think it is more productive to try to address the causes of suicide.

But why is my question. So what people come people go. its a way of life. why is suicide so campaigned against. Not that i fully accept or encourage it

Cavehill Red

shannon_tek wrote: »

But why is my question. So what people come people go. its a way of life. why is suicide so campaigned against. Not that i fully accept or encourage it

Because it is a terrible waste of human potential, because often it is not the actual intention of the suicide to end their lives and because it causes terrible pain and hurt for those left behind.

shannon_tek

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Because it is a terrible waste of human potential, because often it is not the actual intention of the suicide to end their lives and because it causes terrible pain and hurt for those left behind.

two options they become a druggy use money or take the other road. potential i see not. If you are close to suicide clearly you must not be strong enough. Few are but what puts people their in the first place. getting help is like plastic surgery. In my opinion. There will always be terrible pain. what about a road accident. or a building collapses. or just natural death. I still cant see. Maybe it is that i dont want to see. your points are valid but at the end of the day its the persons life. let them be happy*(?) or give them plastic surgery. i still haven't recovered its something that will always be in my mind.

Cavehill Red

I'm unclear as to whether your last post is simply drunken gibberish or whether you're trolling. If the latter, shame on you. Suicide isn't a joking matter.

mud

My friend committed suicide over ten years ago. I was in my very early twenties and found it very hard to cope. He was unable to deal with some things that had happened to his family and ended up taking loads of drugs and one night hung himself.

Since then I've known several people who have committed suicide, all for different reasons but all with the same result. They are erased from this world and their like will never be seen again.

Right now my home is coming to terms with the suicide of a young mother. She was in a terrible place and couldn't cope so she is now dead.

Erased.

I kind of agree with you, it is their choice to a certain extent. But, many, many attempted suicides who go on to get help recover from the emotional precipice and move forward with their lives.

shannon_tek

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I'm unclear as to whether your last post is simply drunken gibberish or whether you're trolling. If the latter, shame on you. Suicide isn't a joking matter.

Im not drunk. and im not trolling. It is a serious matter yes. but im serious that i dont understand. If i had to see a friend die, after i have pleaded to stay i will accept the fact that im not the judge to keep them here. what else can i do. Its not my decision to make. i dont want to see them unhappy, Even with counselling* it just covers up. it will never be forgotten. man i think about it everyday when stuff goes wrong. One think i dont like about it is that its a cheap way out. But why be hated. if you have no other options. family may be there but someday they will be gone. and i may still be unhappy. okay you cant predict the future but im not sure if the awareness is making it better or worse. I dont know. im 50/50 on it. thats why i cant understand im neither for or against it

Cavehill Red

Because none of us can predict the future, and because there are modern medications that can address conditions that cause suicidal ideation, such as depression or schizophrenia, almost no one bar the terminally ill have 'no options' as you put it.
No one knows what the future may hold. Interviews conducted with people who were interrupted in the act of suicide reveal that almost all of them feel entirely disconnected with the momentary period in which they wished to die. In fact, they generally feel so estranged from that moment it is as if it happened to another person, indicating that the suicidal mentality is a transient thing, albeit one that some sufferers experience often.
It's not something to be 'for' or 'against'. It is a phenomenon which destroys human lives and potential, and like anything which does that, be it cancer or poverty or lack of education or abuse, it is incumbent on society to minimise its effect as far as possible for the benefit of all.

Sarky

shannon_tek wrote: »

But why is my question. So what people come people go. its a way of life. why is suicide so campaigned against. Not that i fully accept or encourage it

Probably has something to do with the immense, unbelievable suffering that often precedes suicide. Try to imagine how awful you'd have to feel for killing yourself to seem like a logical way of ending that suffering. I'll be very surprised if you can.

Your "not strong enough" remark is pretty nasty. It's not a question of strength. Depression, or whatever else causes suicide to seem attractive to someone, simply does not give a single f*ck how strong-willed you like to think you are. It can't be reasoned away by any amount of common sense.

And really? Plastic surgery? You think it's all superficial? Do you feel inadequate because you got vaccinated for measles as a child? Does not being strong enough to shrug off the flu eat at you as you lie in bed with a fever and clogged sinuses?

seanybiker

shannon_tek wrote: »

two options they become a druggy use money or take the other road. potential i see not. If you are close to suicide clearly you must not be strong enough. Few are but what puts people their in the first place. getting help is like plastic surgery. In my opinion. There will always be terrible pain. what about a road accident. or a building collapses. or just natural death. I still cant see. Maybe it is that i dont want to see. your points are valid but at the end of the day its the persons life. let them be happy*(?) or give them plastic surgery. i still haven't recovered its something that will always be in my mind.

Being close to suicide does not make a person weak by any means.
I have attempted it in the past. The only reason I'm here today is because my best friend commit suicide last year and as a favour to him I have been trying my hardest not to commit suicide. I will admit that sometimes it's very hard to try talk myself out of it and other times it's only a passing thought.
I also have the times where I admire my friend for going through with it, no I'm not saying I don't miss him but sometimes when you are that low your options can become obscured by the thoughts.
I am far from getting better and living a "normal" life and I will admit that I can't see myself living to an old age because of these thoughts but tomorrow I might be full of life and feel bad for having these thoughts.
You don't know what I have been going through since I was 12-13 so there's no point giving out to you about what seems like a joke kind of post but it's hard to be serious about something you don't understand.

shannon_tek

You speak of potential but in my opinion there could be 6 or more people like me out there. In my opinion no potential has been lost.. Ok they may not live here in Ireland but their still contributing to the world. Im just saying im a neutral person i'll argue both sides of the case its who i am.

Thats the thing i would hate to see anyone on medication. yes it may be good for them but they shouldn't have to be . I dunno .....

Cavehill Red

seanybiker wrote: »

Being close to suicide does not make a person weak by any means.
I have attempted it in the past. The only reason I'm here today is because my best friend commit suicide last year and as a favour to him I have been trying my hardest not to commit suicide. I will admit that sometimes it's very hard to try talk myself out of it and other times it's only a passing thought.
I also have the times where I admire my friend for going through with it, no I'm not saying I don't miss him but sometimes when you are that low your options can become obscured by the thoughts.
I am far from getting better and living a "normal" life and I will admit that I can't see myself living to an old age because of these thoughts but tomorrow I might be full of life and feel bad for having these thoughts.
You don't know what I have been going through since I was 12-13 so there's no point giving out to you about what seems like a joke kind of post but it's hard to be serious about something you don't understand.

Hang in there, bro. Life isn't easy, but it doesn't have to be travelled alone either. Share your feelings, especially if you're low, with family or friends, or with a health professional or even the Samaritans. Reach out for help. You don't have to fight on your own. You owe it to yourself ten years from now to reach there and see what you've achieved.

Cavehill Red

shannon_tek wrote: »

You speak of potential but in my opinion there could be 6 or more people like me out there. In my opinion no potential has been lost.. Ok they may not live here in Ireland but their still contributing to the world. Im just saying im a neutral person i'll argue both sides of the case its who i am.

Thats the thing i would hate to see anyone on medication. yes it may be good for them but they shouldn't have to be . I dunno .....

Should a cancer sufferer forego chemo because you don't think they have to be on medication? Do I really need to point out the philosophical stupidity of such a statement? As for human potential, no human is replicated, no even identical twins. Every person is unique, with unique potential and abilities, and to the extent that I consider we have a purpose, I reckon that purpose is to explore and fulfil those potentials.

seanybiker

shannon_tek wrote: »

You speak of potential but in my opinion there could be 6 or more people like me out there. In my opinion no potential has been lost.. Ok they may not live here in Ireland but their still contributing to the world. Im just saying im a neutral person i'll argue both sides of the case its who i am.

Thats the thing i would hate to see anyone on medication. yes it may be good for them but they shouldn't have to be . I dunno .....

I'm on medication since I was a teenager. I'm 28 now. Medication doesn't bother me personally. If I'm in the pub and feel a panic attack coming on I have no problem taking my tablets out and taking one. If someone asks what I'm doing then ill tell them.
I know what you mean though cos 2 days before my mate hung himself he called upto me asking me how was I so strong etc etc etc and I thought I had him talked out of suicide until I got the phonecall. He didn't want to be on medication as he thought only insane people are on it.

shannon_tek

Sarky wrote: »

Probably has something to do with the immense, unbelievable suffering that often precedes suicide. Try to imagine how awful you'd have to feel for killing yourself to seem like a logical way of ending that suffering. I'll be very surprised if you can.

Your "not strong enough" remark is pretty nasty. It's not a question of strength. Depression, or whatever else causes suicide to seem attractive to someone, simply does not give a single f*ck how strong-willed you like to think you are. It can't be reasoned away by any amount of common sense.

Plastic surgery? You think it's all superficial? Do you feel inadequate because you got vaccinated for measles as a child? Does not being strong enough to shrug off the flu eat at you as you lie in bed with a fever and clogged sinuses?

Yes you would have to feel very horrible. specially when your told to go and die over and over and over again it digs in. and questions your sense of being here. When you achieve very little in life it too also questions everything in the world.
I used that term because its all i can think of to describe what it looks like its a covering trying to hide something that has to be forgotten but never will.

seanybiker

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Hang in there, bro. Life isn't easy, but it doesn't have to be travelled alone either. Share your feelings, especially if you're low, with family or friends, or with a health professional or even the Samaritans. Reach out for help. You don't have to fight on your own. You owe it to yourself ten years from now to reach there and see what you've achieved.

cheers for that bud.
I know looking at my post count it's mainly after hours but my song is tracks of my tears if you know what I mean.
Ill never make a huge difference to anyones life to be honest and I'm getting used to that fact. If I ever sort meself out ill probably have an OK job and trundle on through life and honestly the way me life is now, trundling on in an OK job sounds great to me.

Cavehill Red

seanybiker wrote: »

cheers for that bud.
I know looking at my post count it's mainly after hours but my song is tracks of my tears if you know what I mean.
Ill never make a huge difference to anyones life to be honest and I'm getting used to that fact. If I ever sort meself out ill probably have an OK job and trundle on through life and honestly the way me life is now, trundling on in an OK job sounds great to me.

You never know how you touch other human beings, because they often can't, won't or don't tell you. But all of us do. When my close relative took her life at a young enough age, a strange lad with long hair turned up at the funeral and came to the family home afterwards, bawling his eyes out and making more of a scene than any of the family were. Eventually, I thought I'd go and see what the craic was, and asked him how he knew the deceased. Turned out he had adored her from afar for a long time, and never said it to her. So you might not know what impact you have on the world, but it doesn't mean that you don't have one, nor that it is not profound.

seanybiker

Cavehill Red wrote: »

You never know how you touch other human beings, because they often can't, won't or don't tell you. But all of us do. When my close relative took her life at a young enough age, a strange lad with long hair turned up at the funeral and came to the family home afterwards, bawling his eyes out and making more of a scene than any of the family were. Eventually, I thought I'd go and see what the craic was, and asked him how he knew the deceased. Turned out he had adored her from afar for a long time, and never said it to her. So you might not know what impact you have on the world, but it doesn't mean that you don't have one, nor that it is not profound.

Don't get me wrong I love me family and friends and they love me aswell. I know where your coming from, I'm so used to being sad that I'm excellent at making other people feel good about themselves. I'm happy that way. Cheers for the kind words.
Op sorry bout scabbing your thread.

shannon_tek

seanybiker wrote: »

Don't get me wrong I love me family and friends and they love me aswell. I know where your coming from, I'm so used to being sad that I'm excellent at making other people feel good about themselves. I'm happy that way. Cheers for the kind words.
Op sorry bout scabbing your thread.

Your ok. its people like you that im blessed to have cross my path. you got me thinking. thank you.

Cavehill Red

seanybiker wrote: »

Don't get me wrong I love me family and friends and they love me aswell. I know where your coming from, I'm so used to being sad that I'm excellent at making other people feel good about themselves. I'm happy that way. Cheers for the kind words.
Op sorry bout scabbing your thread.

Like all pains, depression is alleviated when you don't think about it. That can be a very hard thing to do, as depression is like a stuck record going round and round in the head incessantly. Medication can lift it, but those with the least depression are those with something else to focus on. Often the very people you'd think have most reason to be sad, say Sub-Saharan Africans in a famine, are the least depressed because they have a very acute purpose to think about - trying to feed themselves and their kids.
I suppose what I'm saying is that giving yourself goals to achieve, even if they seem meaningless to begin with, can be an enormous help in conquering depression. Simply by having something to aim for and focus on lifts the pervading sense of purposelessness and despair. And the sense of actually achieving an aim is itself a boost. This can be doubled up with the endorphin hits from exercise if one sets as a goal something fitness-related, like running a marathon, for example.
I'm just throwing things out here. I've no magic bullet for depression and no one does. But I am aware that such strategies can do wonders for mood.

nkay1985

@Seany:
I can only re-iterate what cavehill has said and wish I could thank his posts a thousand times. I know I don't really know you but I'd like to think I've a good idea after so long on here, specially with both of us turning up in mad forums at stupid times of the night!

You're a legend, simple as. Extremely sharp-witted and funny. That's only one small element of who you are but that alone has already put paid to your point about not making a difference to people's lives; the difference you can make but giving someone a laugh is enormous! I know that I go into every thread of the Waterford forum and a big reason to do so is that there's likely going to be something random out of you! All of us there would miss you a great deal if you weren't here.

If you're ever feeling low or anything, there are always people online here and I'm usually one of them. Fire off an auld PM and we'll have a chat.

Dades

shannon_tek wrote: »

But why is my question. So what people come people go. its a way of life. why is suicide so campaigned against. Not that i fully accept or encourage it

A high suicide rate in a First World country is a damning indictment of that society. The fact that we live in relative luxury compared to most of the world, and yet we allow a portion of society to get so low that they believe suicide is their best or only option.

In short, suicide is campaigned against because we as a society should be doing more for people in that position, rather than simply focussing on our own individual problems.

shannon_tek

Dades wrote: »

shannon_tek wrote: »

But why is my question. So what people come people go. its a way of life. why is suicide so campaigned against. Not that i fully accept or encourage it

A high suicide rate in a First World country is a damning indictment of that society. The fact that we live in relative luxury compared to most of the world, and yet we allow a portion of society to get so low that they believe suicide is their best or only option.

In short, suicide is campaigned against because we as a society should be doing more for people in that position, rather than simply focussing on our own individual problems.

Thank-you. That is understandable.

Permabear

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Enkidu

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

The world is full of unexpected things! Are you aware of any research into why this is the case?

shannon_tek

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

so basically what this is saying is that in our society the more prevention that is put out there the higher the rate will be but if we cut back and all act as one unit the rate 'should' " " drop

OldNotWIse

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I'm unclear as to whether your last post is simply drunken gibberish or whether you're trolling. If the latter, shame on you. Suicide isn't a joking matter.

I dont think it was trolling, and I think its out of line to say "shame on you" to someone who is (from what I can read) genuinely just asking questions.

As someone who has considered it in the past, I think I can see both sides. Of course it is a waste of human life, but I agree with the op that people should not just assume mental illness when someone attempts or completes a suicide.

I have to say, boards seem to be mishandling the issue. From what I have seen here, if someone mentions the issue, other posters or mods accuse them of trolling and/or lock the thread. Great way to make someone who is (potentially - how do you know otherwise?) feeling suicidal, feel even worse.