Room for Santa Clause Christian household? (Mod Warning Post 4)

Onesimus

So. . . Do you think it's a good thing to balance the whole Santa clause comes down our chimney, eats some of our cookies and goes back to the north pole fairytale in with the true meaning of Christmas such as Christs Birth?

Is it possible for us to have both the consumerist fairytale and his elves and Christ ( Truth ) at Christmas time? Do you think that teaching both and then at a later date breaking their little heart that he ( Santa ) doesnt exist and as a result of that sending them mixed messages of lies and truth? Sometimes I wonder this and if it's healthy. For me it isnt healthy at all, same with the tooth fairy and all those ridicolous folklore tales.

Would you say that a Christian who doesnt teach his children about the fairytale of santa claus is someone is a little bit...over the top, fanatical and a bit extreme? Afterall it was never thought of as fanatical prior to the coca cola man coming in 19th century, not until the world decided is was a great idea in the 19th century and that anyone dare challenge it is related to Ebenezar Scrooge and a fanatic.

I'm just kind of rambling now so whats your thoughts about it?

bonniebede

I tihnk we should cherish the memory of the real St nicholas, and his work in helping the poor and children. But not commercial Santa, or fictions about chimneys and presents.

So yes to presents, which in Spanish tradition come from Baby Jesus. I like this because as the child grows older, they do not have to be told this is a lie, but simply that God provides everything, and Jesus did send the presents, being helped in this by the parents. So understanding grows rather than is contradicted.

One lady in our church approached my friends kids on Christmas day and said 'So who came to you this morning' to which the four year old said 'Jesus' with a big excited grin. The lady clearly didn't get it. ' Did Santa come she said, beaming. 'Baby Jesus came ' said the kid, looking a little puzzled that this lady clearly didn't get the meaning of Christmas at all. The two of them looked at each other for a moment in mutual incomprehension, then the lady moved off. But the pastor was delighted.

My sister is afraid that in not having santa there will be no magic about Christmas. But then she was the upper end of our family. Being the youngest I don't remember ever actually thinking Santa really came, and i still looked forward to it all just as much.

I think building family traditions which are fun as well as gospel centred is really important.

im invisible

Room for santa? Usually the one with the fireplace...

PDN

Mod Warning
Christians should be able to discuss this issue without the thread being derailed by trolls.

Therefore Atheists or unbelievers who want to argue about the existence of God can please take their puerile comments elsewhere - such as the Atheist/Christian Debate Thread, or After Hours.

There will be zero tolerance of trolling in this thread. I have had to delete over a dozen posts this morning. Such trolling will attract infractions without any further warning.

johnners2981

How is it trolling? It was debating. Puerile? Someones touchy

rich.d.berry

My son has known that Santa is fictitious since around the age of 8. Nothing formal or dogmatic about the way it was revealed, mainly just confirming his suspicions when he expressed them. Basically just being truthful and allowing him to grow up.

I was absolutely amazed when a few years later we were summoned to the school office because parents were complaining about my son's behaviour. They were saying that he was telling his fellow 6th class pupils that Santa was not a real person. That's a disciplinary issue?

In the meeting we were asked to get him to stop, and that he was spoiling Christmas for his class mates. So, wishing to get his version of events I asked that he be called from class to join the discussion. It turns out that he told one child who had expressed suspicion to him about it. Basically he'd asked "Do you believe that Santa's real" My son then said no and that his parents had already told him. This kid then told other children and his younger siblings, taking great delight in teasing them that they still believed in a fairytale. When he was taken to task over it he blamed my son for telling him. The group of parents then got together and decided that it was my son's fault, even though it was the malicious delight taken by the child he told that caused the problem.

Why blame my son when their little darlings get upset that they have been deceived by their parents? Why can't they allow their children to grow up? What harm does it do them to know the truth? It's like there's this ridiculous Santa conspiracy! I shudder to think what they tell them when they get asked the tough birds and bees questions.

In the end the principal tried to make my son promise not to tell anyone else. I then asked, "what if someone asks him if he believes in Santa, are you telling him to lie and say yes?".
His reply "No, he doesn't need to lie.".
Not letting him off the hook I asked "So, what answer would you have him give if asked the direct question again?".
At that he passed the buck to me. "Oh, you can work out some appropriate responses that he can use."

The meeting did not end as well as the principal had hoped, with us promising to keep our "wayward son" in line. Fortunately for my son, the issue never came up again.

Onesimus

Yeah your story about your sons treatment is just another reminder of how much pressure secular society has us under to conform to their petty traditions. And they expect our kids to conform to it also.

Both my wife and I get tortured by our relatives about our son and santee. Our relatives will come and say ''oh are you not going to get your picture taken with santee this year?'' and they know right well that we dont accept such things in the household. They then throw hissy fits when we respond that what they are doing is inappropriate.

I would instruct my son to just not start at all the kids about their belief in Santa Claus but if they asked him does he believe in it, that he is to give them the undiluted truth that he doesnt and that Christ is the meaning of Christmas for him and not some consumerist invention of society that promotes materialism and takes away the gift of giving. Children need to recognise the gift of giving and charity of Christ through us, and if they only learn that this gift comes from an imaginary fairytale they wake up and give Santa claus all the glory, and there is idolatry in that.

Dont get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with the stretch of the imagination such as Pirates of the Caribbean and Lord of the rings which are good entertainment but it's when that imagination is delivered to the child as truth that the problem arises. Because kids already know pirates of the Caribbean and Toy Story is just made up but they find it entertaining as would any of us.

Every feast of Christ has something ridiculous to accompany it. Christmas time it's Santa Claus, Easter time it's the Easter Bunny and All hallows eve it's goblins and ghosts. All of which the creation of are influenced by the devil to distract us from the true meaning of those feasts.

Thanks for sharing your story.

PickledLime

PDN wrote: »

Mod Warning
Christians should be able to discuss this issue without the thread being derailed by trolls.

Therefore Atheists or unbelievers who want to argue about the existence of God can please take their puerile comments elsewhere - such as the Atheist/Christian Debate Thread, or After Hours.

There will be zero tolerance of trolling in this thread. I have had to delete over a dozen posts this morning. Such trolling will attract infractions without any further warning.

How exactly is this trolling? The OP discusses the 'true meaning of Christmas' (ie. winter festival/solstice etc), but filters it through their own definition. Another poster asks why is it okay to peddle the myth of Jesus Christ to a child but not the myth of Santa Claus.

I grew up in a fairly standard Christian household. Both my parents were typical church goers. I was allowed believe in Santa, and was allowed to you know, be a child. Telling your kids that Santa is a fabrication of a capitalist society and that Christmas is only about the birth of Jesus to the detriment of the child's position within his/her peer group is somewhat fanatical.

Cato Maior

Onesimus wrote: »

Yeah your story about your sons treatment is just another reminder of how much pressure secular society has us under to conform to their petty traditions. And they expect our kids to conform to it also.

Both my wife and I get tortured by our relatives about our son and santee. Our relatives will come and say ''oh are you not going to get your picture taken with santee this year?'' and they know right well that we dont accept such things in the household. They then throw hissy fits when we respond that what they are doing is inappropriate.

I would instruct my son to just not start at all the kids about their belief in Santa Claus but if they asked him does he believe in it, that he is to give them the undiluted truth that he doesnt and that Christ is the meaning of Christmas for him and not some consumerist invention of society that promotes materialism and takes away the gift of giving. Children need to recognise the gift of giving and charity of Christ through us, and if they only learn that this gift comes from an imaginary fairytale they wake up and give Santa claus all the glory, and there is idolatry in that.

Dont get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with the stretch of the imagination such as Pirates of the Caribbean and Lord of the rings which are good entertainment but it's when that imagination is delivered to the child as truth that the problem arises. Because kids already know pirates of the Caribbean and Toy Story is just made up but they find it entertaining as would any of us.

Every feast of Christ has something ridiculous to accompany it. Christmas time it's Santa Claus, Easter time it's the Easter Bunny and All hallows eve it's goblins and ghosts. All of which the creation of are influenced by the devil to distract us from the true meaning of those feasts.

Thanks for sharing your story.

Would you have any issue with the child of non-Christian parents being equally forthright on the topic of the Christian religion and telling other children in their class that Jesus, God, Mary etc. were all false and as much of a fairy tale as Santa?

Onesimus

Cato Maior wrote: »

Would you have any issue with the child of non-Christian parents being equally forthright on the topic of the Christian religion and telling other children in their class that Jesus, God, Mary etc. were all false and as much of a fairy tale as Santa?

No I wouldnt have a problem as it happens. He needs to be prepared for such variety of beliefs in the world. Instances such as these in his life are important for his spiritual growth in both knowledge and Faith.

Cato Maior

Onesimus wrote: »

No I wouldnt have a problem as it happens. He needs to be prepared for such variety of beliefs in the world. Instances such as these in his life are important for his spiritual growth in both knowledge and Faith.

Fair play to you.

soterpisc

I usually Say to the Kids that Santa Claus is just another name for Saint Nicolas a Bishop who would give gifts to kids.


I really hate the whole north pole, raindeer, elves story line because its a fairy tail that us hyped beyond a fairytale to nearly becoming the centre of Christmas.

Its not the fairytale that I have a problem with.. But the materialism that goes with it. Our family stopped giving presents any it takes the wholes stress out of Christmas. We use the money and talk a nice holiday later in the year (of course the kids do get their things) But as for me, I don't need any over priced mens toiletry sets, after shave or gift vouchers I will loose before I get to use them.

For me Christmas as a Christian is about Celebrating the birth of Christ, Midnight Mass and a nice meal..

Cato Maior

I had a Christian upbringing and my parents did all they could to raise us in the faith. That I am no longer a Christian has little to do with my upbringing and indeed I remain a committed and practicing Catholic into my early 30s.

I don't believe that the Santa Claus tradition in our house was a negative thing. The religious element was strong but Santa added a touch of 'magic' to the experience of Christmas and excited the imagination. It was certainly not materialistic as we did not receive and abundance of gifts by any manner or means.

While no longer a Christian we have kept up the practice of Santa with our own children and we keep the materialism to a minimum and place the emphasis on family get-togethers, sharing, and gift-giving as an expression of affection and love.

I see no great harm in Santa, but do agree with other posters that the entire thing has gotten far too materialistic and is unhealthy in many ways.

Onesimus

Cato Maior wrote: »

I had a Christian upbringing and my parents did all they could to raise us in the faith. That I am no longer a Christian has little to do with my upbringing and indeed I remain a committed and practicing Catholic into my early 30s.

I don't believe that the Santa Claus tradition in our house was a negative thing. The religious element was strong but Santa added a touch of 'magic' to the experience of Christmas and excited the imagination. It was certainly not materialistic as we did not receive and abundance of gifts by any manner or means.

While no longer a Christian we have kept up the practice of Santa with our own children and we keep the materialism to a minimum and place the emphasis on family get-togethers, sharing, and gift-giving as an expression of affection and love.

I see no great harm in Santa, but do agree with other posters that the entire thing has gotten far too materialistic and is unhealthy in many ways.

Yes but the true Christian ( not claiming to be one ) doesnt need to ''add'' anything on to Christ in order to creat a little magic. Christ has everything the Christian needs. For us to have to add a little magic to that is to some how play down the true meaning of Christmas in the Christian household. I repeat therefore that Santa is just another idolatrous invention of the philosophical and secular society we live in. Something we were able to do without before it came and something we are able to do without now.

muppeteer

I found the santa story quite beneficial really. The younger child has a bit of magic and also for the parent there is the nice effect of the all seeing eye of santa to keep the child well behaved for a couple of weeks:)

For me, by far the biggest benefit was when I discovered that santa wasn't real. That day I discovered that people can and do lie to you, even your parents and teachers, everyone. I also discovered that other children can be mistaken and misled, just as I was, and that I should think and investigate for myself.
Important life lessons were learned that day for sure, no matter what your philosophy.

Cato Maior

muppeteer wrote: »

For me, by far the biggest benefit was when I discovered that santa wasn't real. That day I discovered that people can and do lie to you, even your parents and teachers, everyone. I also discovered that other children can be mistaken and misled, just as I was, and that I should think and investigate for myself.
Important life lessons were learned that day for sure, no matter what your philosophy.

You're right. There is a lesson to be learnt from it all...

Cato Maior

Onesimus wrote: »

Yes but the true Christian ( not claiming to be one ) doesnt need to ''add'' anything on to Christ in order to creat a little magic. Christ has everything the Christian needs. For us to have to add a little magic to that is to some how play down the true meaning of Christmas in the Christian household. I repeat therefore that Santa is just another idolatrous invention of the philosophical and secular society we live in. Something we were able to do without before it came and something we are able to do without now.

My father had Santa 'visit' him in the '50s. Are you suggesting that Ireland in the 50s was secular society?

Whatever about a secular society (I'd argue that we are not there - yet!) but I fail to see how you could assert that we are living in a philosophical society. If only. There is precious little philosophical thought and even less of the philosophical life as the Greeks conceived of it.

prinz

I love Christmas... and Santa. Don't see the issues tbh for a Christian family. Once it isn't displacing the Christian element (crib etc) then I don't see the problem. Can't see the issue of sharing the fun element of it with kids either even if Santa/St Nick/the Christkindl doesn't actually visit each and every one of them to drop of gifts, and I don't agree they are going to be traumatised in some way as a result of growing up to learn the truth.

What kind of world would it be where a kid's imagination is stifled to that extent. What next? Ban Roald Dahl books? Ban Mary Poppins?.....

Onesimus

Cato Maior wrote: »

My father had Santa 'visit' him in the '50s. Are you suggesting that Ireland in the 50s was secular society?

Whatever about a secular society (I'd argue that we are not there - yet!) but I fail to see how you could assert that we are living in a philosophical society. If only. There is precious little philosophical thought and even less of the philosophical life as the Greeks conceived of it.

Ireland always has a level of secularism. Secularism is something that has existed since the dawn of time. No Country no matter how Catholic it is always has secularism in it. People never change and the influences always come either from within or without the country, in this case the whole of idea of Santee who came from America.

Philosophical society? we dont live in one? I'm not even going to argue that. I dont even know how you could suggest we dont live in a world mixed with philosophical thought and that philosophy somehow ended with the Greeks.

Prinz I've already addressed the idea of fictional books. No need to ban fiction, thats not what this thread is about. It's when fiction is passed to the child as truth that I have a problem with. It's when fiction seeks to take the place of Christ at a very special time of year that I have a problem with. Granted that some seem to get on just fine. But for me and my household it's out the window.

prinz

Onesimus wrote: »

Prinz I've already addressed the idea of fictional books. No need to ban fiction, thats not what this thread is about. It's when fiction is passed to the child as truth that I have a problem with. It's when fiction seeks to take the place of Christ at a very special time of year that I have a problem with. Granted that some seem to get on just fine. But for me and my household it's out the window.

Do you object to kids getting gifts on St Nicholas' Eve on the continent?
Do you object to parents tell their kids that the Christkindl brings them gifts? Do you object to the Dutch Sinterklaas (hence Santa Claus) or Knecht Ruprecht in Germany? Or the many, many, many other 'incarnations' that are just part of legend and imagination from all over the European continent stretching back hundreds of years?

Is there room for them in a Christian household? You can avoid the consumerism and commercialism, and still enjoy the magic of a fairytale figure who brings you gifts.

Cato Maior

Onesimus wrote: »

Philosophical society? we dont live in one? I'm not even going to argue that. I dont even know how you could suggest we dont live in a world mixed with philosophical thought and that philosophy somehow ended with the Greeks.

I didn't suggest that it ended with the Greeks. You seem to have decided to give my post the most uncharitable reading possible which is unfortunate as well as poor practice.

You are right that we live in a world mixed with philosophical thought, but that does not make for a philosophic society. Few engage with those ideas or are even aware of many of them, even though they effect the way they live their lives and how they conceive and think of things. A philosophical society would be one where philosophy is taught in schools and where people are educated in how to think rationally, in the discipline of logic, in the history of ideas, and to have a questioning spirit. Public discourse would be full of argument over ideas and a majority of the society would participate in some way in that dialogue or at least be capable of it. I see little of that around me.

Cato Maior

Onesimus wrote: »

Ireland always has a level of secularism. Secularism is something that has existed since the dawn of time. No Country no matter how Catholic it is always has secularism in it. People never change and the influences always come either from within or without the country, in this case the whole of idea of Santee who came from America.

What do you understand secularism to mean? I think that we are operating off two different understandings of the word.

Onesimus

prinz wrote: »

Do you object to kids getting gifts on St Nicholas' Eve on the continent?
Do you object to parents tell their kids that the Christkindl brings them gifts? Do you object to the Dutch Sinterklaas (hence Santa Claus) or Knecht Ruprecht in Germany? Or the many, many, many other 'incarnations' that are just part of legend and imagination from all over the European continent stretching back hundreds of years?

Is there room for them in a Christian household? You can avoid the consumerism and commercialism, and still enjoy the magic of a fairytale figure who brings you gifts.

I dont believe in telling my kids anything at all to do with fiction as truth even if that Fiction is attempted to be somehow loosely related to Christ. Fiction is fiction and you cant tie it with the Truth ( Christ ).

I dont want to ''enjoy'' a fairytale passed as the truth, I enjoy the truth and If Christians are gonna walk around proclaiming the truth it makes no sense to walk around at the same time pronouncing a lie.

We cant serve both God and the world. and to have our kids praise an imaginary tale is to have them commit idolatry end of story.

Onesimus

Cato Maior wrote: »

I didn't suggest that it ended with the Greeks. You seem to have decided to give my post the most uncharitable reading possible which is unfortunate as well as poor practice.

You are right that we live in a world mixed with philosophical thought, but that does not make for a philosophic society. Few engage with those ideas or are even aware of many of them, even though they effect the way they live their lives and how they conceive and think of things. A philosophical society would be one where philosophy is taught in schools and where people are educated in how to think rationally, in the discipline of logic, in the history of ideas, and to have a questioning spirit. Public discourse would be full of argument over ideas and a majority of the society would participate in some way in that dialogue or at least be capable of it. I see little of that around me.

Philosophy is the thought of man. Whenever a man utters words that are contrary or go against Christ, they are whats known as Philosophy, he speaks philosophy. Whenever a man speaks about Christ or in the Spirit he speaks ''Theology'' and Christ is ''Theology'' not Philosophy which is just the thoughts of men. That is what secularism is and that is what kind of society we live in. A society mixed with their own Philosophy and ideas and thoughts. Secularism is the modern day word for mere paganism or philosophy. Secularism in short for me is the world whose thoughts go against that of Christs and santee is part of that secularism and creation thereof.

I dont want to head down the whole road of what is true secularism and what is true philosophy because it will derail us from the topic which I've already made my point clear in this thread and that is that the true meaning of Christmas is Christ and one can not put them ( santa and Christ ) side by side and serve both the truth and a lie.

God bless
Onesimus

Cato Maior

Onesimus wrote: »

Philosophy is the thought of man. Whenever a man utters words that are contrary or go against Christ, they are whats known as Philosophy, he speaks philosophy. Whenever a man speaks about Christ or in the Spirit he speaks ''Theology'' and Christ is ''Theology'' not Philosophy which is just the thoughts of men. That is what secularism is and that is what kind of society we live in. A society mixed with their own Philosophy and ideas and thoughts. Secularism is the modern day word for mere paganism or philosophy. Secularism in short for me is the world whose thoughts go against that of Christs and santee is part of that secularism and creation thereof.

I dont want to head down the whole road of what is true secularism and what is true philosophy because it will derail us from the topic which I've already made my point clear in this thread and that is that the true meaning of Christmas is Christ and one can not put them ( santa and Christ ) side by side and serve both the truth and a lie.

God bless
Onesimus

Roma locuta est causa finita est...

Philosophy is a bit more than having a thought. One your understanding, every random brain-fart would constitute philosophy.