Yang style tai chi chuan

martin123123

Hi,

Im interested in studying yang style tai chi chuan.Im looking for a club in dublin that teaches the fighting application as well as a focus on the forms.
There is just so many classes to choose from in the yang style that i don't know where to begin to narrow it down.does anyone on here know of particular clubs that emphasis fighting as well as the forms..

Any help is greatly appreciated

Cheers
Martin

Niall Keane

We are not "Yang" style, though Yang Lu Chan is in our lineage. He had learnt from the "Chen" family btw, who had received Tai Chi from Cheng Fa and Wang Tsun Yeuh.

www.sanshou.webs.com

Check the lineage page, Wudang has been passed from fighter to fighter not father to son!

I have never met or heard of any tai chi fighters in Ireland outside of Wudang (practical) tai chi Chuan. Not in Tui Shou, San Shou or Shuai Jiao - the main competition formats. There is a difference between "knowing" what a form shape means in application and having the actual gung to be able to use it against a resistant opponent.

Why did you want Yang style specifically? They haven't fought in generations.

martin123123

Hi,

Just in a broad outlook i like the yang patterns,i feel i could work it them well..maybe other styles too of course.Do u mean they haven't fought in competition in decades?To say they haven't practised practically is a bit unfair no?

martin123123

Has anybody else got any information regarding my first post,again any information is appreciated

Thanks

Niall Keane

Yang Lu Chan became famous and his art was called "tai chi Chuan" by and imperial poet for taking challenges and remaining undefeated in Beijing.
His son - Ban Hou likewise became famous for challenges and lei tai fighting. Though it is well known that "Wang Lan Ting" was Lu Chan s top student, again a guy who went undefeated and took many many challenges on Lei Tai. He eventually went into hiding in a temple after killing 6 Manchu officers.
There is a myth nowadays that masters of Gung Fu are above "sport" fighting, that their arts too pure to be adulterated and compromised for competition, but if you research into the original masters and style founders all of them fought challenge matches and on Lei Tai publicly,
Sanshou / sanda is today's equivalent of lei Tai.
As a fighter an someone who has produced many successful fighters and who's art is solely Tai Chi Chuan I can only state that competition is necessary of you hope to gain skills in timing, angle and range. Which isnt everything, very basic actually but without such foundation nothing stands up!

When I see styles who don't fight "practice" fighting skills, a number of things always happen. Punches are left hanging and the person waits for the technique being practiced to be applied, "masters" call out particular attacks to demonstrate their technique, often with pulled strikes, letting on that they are too dangerous, this serves everyone there! The master has his ego stroked, the students too have entered into a contract where they can all believe that they "have it" with out ever ever having to really test it out against serious intent and resistance and skill.
The early Yangs the lads who were the equivalent of the Gracies today all stood up and took challenges and fought, that tradition hasn't been lost in tai chi Chuan, other lines from Yang still do fight!
But since Yang Chen Fu the grandson of Lu Chan they have not fought, some say he wasn't taught either, having no interest but cashed in on the family business when his uncles died, egged on by their senior students - brand identity and all.
Have a look at "yang Family secret tranission" and Chen Fu's applications - all are strikes, all with little or no evasion, hooked hands in "single whip" that are in reality "grips" are left floating to be like the form and supposed to generate balance and "chi". This tells me that the martial skill was either lost or concealed by the Yangs since the 1920's, I'd lean toward lost.
There have been plenty of Yangs recently of age to fight in Sanhou etc but yet don't, I guess the Chinese fear of losing face? But there's the difference, Lu Chan and Ban Hou got over any such fear and "made" their own reputations, they didn't hide behind some ancestor!
I have videos of Cheng Tin Hung training with students in 1950's and it's pretty similar to how Dan Docherty or myself or any tai chi fighter trains, it's certainly not waving hands about aimlessly and endlessly, I'd be of the opinion that the first Yangs likewise had tough training regimes, and the likes of myself or them would probably be most unwelcome in most of today's tai chi classes.
But you should research and find out for yourself. Try "rum soaked fist" it's an internal martial arts forum, with some interesting threads on the subject.

OLDMAN1

Martin, niall would know a lot more than i would about Tai Chi , but what i can tell you is that i have spoken to a large number of Tai Chi clubs around Ireland over the last year and i can tell you that they dont spar, even the ones that advertise self defence in there adds dont. the only tai Chi in Ireland that i have ever heard of that spars or fights in competitions is Nialls Wudang. if another one tells you they do, ask can you go up on one of there sparring nights and have a look yourself, most real chinese martial arts clubs will fight in every session ...

martin123123

Thanks for the replies..

I would have thought some clubs would practice a randori type exercise to test against resisting opponents?
im all for this type training hence why i posted the original tread.personally i feel it can be done without competition were win lose is not the conclusion but u get to test your skills.This is adaquate in my view..

Martin

gb153

To give a perspective from another Tai Chi style - within the Chen Style of Tai Chi the fighting techniques are not introduced until a student has developed a sufficient foundation through practice of the form. A precursor to the teaching of the fighting techniques is the use of pushing hands or sensitivity training. In China the students would generally not be introduced to pushing hands until they have the equivalent of practicing the form 10 times a day 7 days a week for 3 years. The form takes about 10 - 15 minutes to perform so when a warm up and possibly a stance is incorporated into a session this would typically be 3 hours training a day. I should emphasis that this is considered the bare minimum and highest level practitioners would practice far in excess of this. Once a student develops sufficient pushing hands skills they can then move to full on contact techniques.

Westerners are introduced to Chen style pushing hands earlier as it is rare for people these days to have the dedication to this style of training. Generally Westerners would not have the patience or the time to train like this without any martial application for such a long time. Fighting techniques may also be introduced at an earlier stage despite students not having the necessary foundation to implement the techniques with effective power.

OLDMAN1

gb153 wrote: »

To give a perspective from another Tai Chi style - within the Chen Style of Tai Chi the fighting techniques are not introduced until a student has developed a sufficient foundation through practice of the form. A precursor to the teaching of the fighting techniques is the use of pushing hands or sensitivity training. In China the students would generally not be introduced to pushing hands until they have the equivalent of practicing the form 10 times a day 7 days a week for 3 years. The form takes about 10 - 15 minutes to perform so when a warm up and possibly a stance is incorporated into a session this would typically be 3 hours training a day. I should emphasis that this is considered the bare minimum and highest level practitioners would practice far in excess of this. Once a student develops sufficient pushing hands skills they can then move to full on contact techniques.

Westerners are introduced to Chen style pushing hands earlier as it is rare for people these days to have the dedication to this style of training. Generally Westerners would not have the patience or the time to train like this without any martial application for such a long time. Fighting techniques may also be introduced at an earlier stage despite students not having the necessary foundation to implement the techniques with effective power.

Is there any chen style clubs in Ireland that fight?

martin123123

gb153 wrote: »

To give a perspective from another Tai Chi style - within the Chen Style of Tai Chi the fighting techniques are not introduced until a student has developed a sufficient foundation through practice of the form. A precursor to the teaching of the fighting techniques is the use of pushing hands or sensitivity training. In China the students would generally not be introduced to pushing hands until they have the equivalent of practicing the form 10 times a day 7 days a week for 3 years. The form takes about 10 - 15 minutes to perform so when a warm up and possibly a stance is incorporated into a session this would typically be 3 hours training a day. I should emphasis that this is considered the bare minimum and highest level practitioners would practice far in excess of this. Once a student develops sufficient pushing hands skills they can then move to full on contact techniques.

Westerners are introduced to Chen style pushing hands earlier as it is rare for people these days to have the dedication to this style of training. Generally Westerners would not have the patience or the time to train like this without any martial application for such a long time. Fighting techniques may also be introduced at an earlier stage despite students not having the necessary foundation to implement the techniques with effective power.

Hi
Thanks for your input...
My next reply was going to be on Chen style.As far as i can see there is many Chen style practitioners that train their art with effective application.One cant even think about dismissing the whole chen lineage or its whole scope of practitioners, that would be very, very silly indeed

Martin

gb153

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

Is there any chen style clubs in Ireland that fight?

I don't know anyone who is competing no. I only know 2 teachers who train professionally in the clubs I train with but they do not enter competitions. I fully understand that the competitive aspect is important for some people and rightly so.

Master Wang Hai Jun who is based in Manchester visits about 10 times a year. He has an exhaustive list of competitive success in China. It is rare that a martial application is demonstrated by him but having been on the receiving end myself I am fully confident that I am receiving instruction from a very rare talent. I've been playing rugby for over 20 years but the power and strength that he can exert is like nothing I've seen on the pitch. Obviously its not martial arts but I use it as a comparison as martial arts was not my main background through my teens and twenties.

Choosing what is right will come down to a number of things such as what is accessible locally and what it is you are looking for. Tai Chi is much more than just a martial art. I would say to the OP to try a few different styles to find what is right for you.

Niall Keane

Hmmm, there is a fallacy that exists within some IMAs that one must practice forms, Qi gung, standing etc.. For some "years" before beginning to be taught "fighting", this is NOT traditional. Be clear this is 20th century addition. In my opinion it has a lot to do with the communist ban on comrades fighting each other leaving a generation or two without the necessary experiences to become solid fighters.

There are 5 aspects to TCC - Handform, Nei Gung, Tui Shou (push hands), Sanshou and Auxilary Excercises including weapons.
They all aid and inform each other, making circles albiet to develop a "Shen Fa" etc, without practicing the martial application is like trying to develop good swimming technique without knowing the nature of water. Maybe it's possible? But getting a bit wet wouldn't hurt.

The Chens in fairness are now trying to pull up on the martial side of things, now that China more relaxed about this, focusing on a type of tui shou (push hands) that is basically stand up wrestling above the waist, they hold a competition at their village annually from what I hear. they have even done some CCTV programme called "real fight" where they showcase what their art is about. However there are no head shots! And to me it looks like either cooperative exhibition events or else they've found morons to attack "masters" with hugely chambered kicks and other attacks. There is some kind of "traditional" v "sport" agenda being played, but until they actually step up to Sanshou or MMA what they do will always be questioned.
I'm hoping that the next generation of village practitioners will take the plunge for the sake of their art.

OP the art became famous because it's practitioners did fight, took challenges and won. Those skills and the complete system still exist, you should be discerning! There's an interesting discussion about all this on Rum Soaked Fist, with many complaining that their skill took so long to achieve compared to other arts because for many their first few years were wasted on poor instruction. If you were just after health benefits there's a school on every corner, if you are serious about martial ability, well like I said would you be happy with a swimming coach who has never been wet?

gb153

Niall Keane wrote: »

Hmmm, there is a fallacy that exists within some IMAs that one must practice forms, Qi gung, standing etc.. For some "years" before beginning to be taught "fighting", this is NOT traditional.

This is the traditional way within the Chen system. I also practiced Yang style before moving to Chen. In Yang we were introduced to push hands and some martial techniques from the very beginning and I certainly learned a lot from it. Different systems have different sequences of teaching and having practiced both I can see the merit in both of them.

Niall Keane wrote: »

The Chens in fairness are now trying to pull up on the martial side of things, now that China more relaxed about this, focusing on a type of tui shou (push hands) that is basically stand up wrestling above the waist
...
However there are no head shots!

My understanding is that there are no strikes at all let alone head shots. They may have even changed it to fixed feet position also but I am not 100%. These rules are in place to prevent serious injuries.

Niall I take it from your post that you see no merit in the martial ability of the top Chen practitioners?

KathleenMcCabe

http://www.shaolinkungfuacademy.net/
http://www.taichiyinyang.com/

Master Yang Dong teaches both kungfu and yang tai chi in Dublin. Above are the websites. And if you like Taoist philosophy, he's amazing on that too.

Good luck with your search
Kathleen

Niall Keane

"My understanding is that there are no strikes at all let alone head shots. They may have even changed it to fixed feet position also but I am not 100%. These rules are in place to prevent serious injuries.

Niall I take it from your post that you see no merit in the martial ability of the top Chen practitioners?"

I was referring to the tv show "real fight", I know there are no strikes in tui shou, having won quite a few internationals in it, well in a version that allows sweeps, leg grabs, over shoulder throws etc.

As for martial ability, take myself, before I did full contact Chinese kickboxing I had already won several international tui shou competitions, having faced many Chen, Yang, Wu, Tung, Cheng Man Ching, wtc etc stylists. And with a good coach, and a basic understanding of guard I set off and won some amateur Sanshou comps. I could beat up chumps!
Te first time I fought a professional I did last the fight, I had my cheekbone cracked, I remember at the time feeling completely regulated by him like a puppet on a string. I just had no idea as I had no experience of the traps and dynamics he was able to bear, and certainly had no precedent for that level of power.
Having taking my scolding I lost the martial arrogance a few tui shou successes had instilled in me, saw my tui shou European win as irrelevant, and actually trained to fight, to understand the art of using my entire body offensively and defensively, gaining many insights and suddenly seeing the depth of knowledge within the tai chi system, it's classics, it's tui shou training methods, it's forms and how they all related to all out fighting, how tui shou was not safe play but a tool to isolate and develop some skills and internalise body tactics, how the techniques in form related to each other as safe risk averse counters and recovery methodsand how important the transition from technique to technique actually was, maintaining defensive guards born out of previous agressive technique, how the strategy of the classics in particular "the fighters song" needed to be Truely folded and hammered into the mind under the fire and stress of combat where You know you can be knocked out or seriously injured at any minute if you are not totally aware.

A few months later I was ready, and won my next pro fight by breaking my opponents leg with a roundhouse to the thigh. Eventually in Dec 2005 I hung up the gloves having reached 4th in the world in pro sanda. Since then I have "learned again" through teaching, and produced many international Sanshou, Kaoshu, sanda champions. But I, like my coach and teacher Dan Docherty an his master Cheng Tin Hung all have the experience to pass on, not a partial understanding.
Even at first class my students work at seven star guard and it's uses, techniques are practiced to and fro the guard. Everywhere else I look i see "masters" demostrating technique beginning with hands hanging at sides, this demonstrated one thing clearly, they have never fought anyone with skill and have no idea of how vunerable such arrogance makes them to head shot ko.
Test this for yourself, next time your master asks you to attack him with his hands hanging, feint low and if he follows the gesture he has no skill, then lightly place your hand on his head, it will have dropped and done half the work for you! Know then that a pro fighter would have left him in a coma!

Dan Docherty said to me once - "technique suffers under pressure" he is right, and that's the point of Sanshou, of you can't fight under pressure you can't fight!

OLDMAN1

gb153 wrote: »

I don't know anyone who is competing no. I only know 2 teachers who train professionally in the clubs I train with but they do not enter competitions. I fully understand that the competitive aspect is important for some people and rightly so.

Master Wang Hai Jun who is based in Manchester visits about 10 times a year. He has an exhaustive list of competitive success in China. It is rare that a martial application is demonstrated by him but having been on the receiving end myself I am fully confident that I am receiving instruction from a very rare talent. I've been playing rugby for over 20 years but the power and strength that he can exert is like nothing I've seen on the pitch. Obviously its not martial arts but I use it as a comparison as martial arts was not my main background through my teens and twenties.

Choosing what is right will come down to a number of things such as what is accessible locally and what it is you are looking for. Tai Chi is much more than just a martial art. I would say to the OP to try a few different styles to find what is right for you.

I never said anything about competitions, i understand competitions are not for everyone, what i asked is, is there any Chen style clubs in Ireland that fight. Do they put on gloves in class and hit eachother or do they wrestle?

gb153

Not in our club anyway. If contact fighting early on is important to someone looking for a style then I would say Chen style is not for them.

smacl

gb153 wrote: »

Not in our club anyway. If contact fighting early on is important to someone looking for a style then I would say Chen style is not for them.

Out of interest do you practice competitive tui shou much? The chen village competition is considered one of the major competitions in tai chi, and looks very similar to the type of moving step push hands we practice in wudang tai chi and you see in other big competitions like the European championships. My understanding was that this was a major part of chen style tai chi, and I've certainly come across chen stylists at the europeans in the past.

smacl

martin123123 wrote: »

Thanks for the replies..

I would have thought some clubs would practice a randori type exercise to test against resisting opponents?
im all for this type training hence why i posted the original tread.personally i feel it can be done without competition were win lose is not the conclusion but u get to test your skills.This is adaquate in my view..

Martin

Hi Martin,

Regarding randori, see the link in my previous post. There are wudang tai chi classes on Monday and Thursday in UCD (starting again mid Jan), and we certainly practice this every Thursday, as we've a few UCD lads competing in the British open in this event in April. Niall run's the club and takes the Monday class, myself and Paul Mitchell run the Thursday class with a strong emphasis on tui shou.

Outside of Niall and Paul, I've seen very little moving step push hands (i.e. like randori) in Ireland. For yang style, you could also try Paul Moran (YMAA), though I'm not sure what he covers in his tai chi syllabus.

Shane

Niall Keane

Btw Oldman, 
How many Tai Chi Chuan clubs did you contact who had claimed they trained self defence or martially? 

I'd be interested in knowing the scale of the issue. 

(Oldman runs a Kaoshu / Sanshou comps and organisation in Ireland, and has been very active in building an Irish chinese martial arts competition scene)

People on here know that I have extolled the virtue of the martial art of Tai Chi Chuan for years, and have probably heard me ask that it not be judged on the "health" or "new age" groups. People know that I have no problem with such groups practicing what they call tai chi for what ever reason, each to their own, but when they claim to represent tai chi Chuan as a martial art, though they have never fought nor possibly anyone in their lineage for generations, it really is a case of the blind leading the blind, and such is immediately evident to anyone who happens upon them. 

To me they are false advertising, cheating their students and although sometimes they may even be deluded enough to believe their own hype, they must know deep down that they simply have not put in the necessary "effort" to develop such Gung Fu. 

By claiming that they practice martially they injure the reputation of tai chi Chuan as an effective martial art, and deminish the reputation of all of us that actually do. How many times on this board have I been jeered at by new members because I mention tai chi Chuan, before they learn that actually I and my students have fought at high level competitions and proven out art. I cant blame such people when what they have been expose to as "martial" tai chi amounts to nothing more than slow forms and complaint tui shou sensitivity  drills.

The OP was looking for something that emphasised the martial aspect. It sounds to me like he has done a bit of research and has tried to seek out "the original" tai chi Chuan. I can see his intentions mean well, he want the "real" thing, but he's new to this world of truth and lies, and I fear he will waste his time of he is Truely looking for something martial given the extent of false advertising relating to what's on offer in tai chi classes in this country. And of course the great tai chi lie, "you will be trained how to fight at a more advanced level" of course this never happens, but by then you've bought too far into the pyramid scheme!

OLDMAN1

Niall Keane wrote: »

Btw Oldman,
How many Tai Chi Chuan clubs did you contact who had claimed they trained self defence or martially?

I'd be interested in knowing the scale of the issue.

I cant remember the exact number, roughly between 10 and 15 that claim to teach self defence, one group has at least 10 clubs around Ireland. But to be honest is't not just a Tai Chi problem, i have also contacted at least 5 clubs that claim to teach sanshou but they dont enter competitions or even spar from what i can see. from what i can see the vast majority of chinese martial arts clubs in Ireland seem to teach line danceing.One group even states that not only do they not enter competitions or do sparring, but even asking to spar is insulting as you are questioning weather the style works...

Checkout page 76 of the Irish fighter

maguffin

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

I cant remember the exact number, roughly between 10 and 15 that claim to teach self defence, one group has at least 10 clubs around Ireland. But to be honest is't not just a Tai Chi problem, i have also contacted at least 5 clubs that claim to teach sanshou but they dont enter competitions or even spar from what i can see. from what i can see the vast majority of chinese martial arts clubs in Ireland seem to teach line danceing.One group even states that not only do they not enter competitions or do sparring, but even asking to spar is insulting as you are questioning weather the style works...

Checkout page 76 of the Irish fighter

See the following link for YMAA Ireland Sanshou training. Dr. Yang's Tai Chi lineage is that of Ban Hou.

http://www.themartialartsacademy.com/wei_chi.html

Also, Tai Chi is not ALWAYS about martial / san shou....the majority who seek out classes do so for the health aspects, and there is nothing wrong with this at all. 'Fighters' tend to be young, male and into impact sport...Sanshou (which is not Tai Chi....was originally developed by the Chinese Military based upon the study and practices of traditional Kung Fu and modern combat fighting techniques.) provides just that...high impact sport fighting.

BTW, I'm not a member of YMAA, though I have trained with them in the past.

Niall Keane

maguffin wrote: »

Also, Tai Chi is not ALWAYS about martial / san shou....the majority who seek out classes do so for the health aspects, and there is nothing wrong with this at all. 'Fighters' tend to be young, male and into impact sport...Sanshou (which is not Tai Chi....was originally developed by the Chinese Military based upon the study and practices of traditional Kung Fu and modern combat fighting techniques.) provides just that...high impact sport fighting.

BTW, I'm not a member of YMAA, though I have trained with them in the past.

Sanshou is a competition format! That's what I was referring to, a Chinese MMA to allow all styles to compete!
The term means "scattering hands" and can also refer to the PRC military training or in fact also one of the 5 elements of tai chi. FYI when the sport was set up by the Chinese in the early 80's Cheng Tin Hung - Dan Docherty's master was an advisor, having been a previous international lei tai champion a a famous tai chi master.

So Sanshou is an open format where Tai Chi can be practiced and tested!

As for people doing tai chi boxercise for health, fair enough, but read the thread the OP was looking for Tai Chi with a martial emphasis!

As for the "young male" comment, I infer that you mean this in a derogatory manner? In any matter, I'm not so young, and the beauty of Tai Chi as a martial art is that it can be carried on into old age, that does not mean that you can skip the necessary gung training and be lazy learning some magic technique or Shen Fa method, though I suspect many fool themselves into believing this!

maguffin

Niall Keane wrote: »

Sanshou is a competition format! That's what I was referring to, a Chinese MMA to allow all styles to compete!
The term means "scattering hands" and can also refer to the PRC military training or in fact also one of the 5 elements of tai chi. FYI when the sport was set up by the Chinese in the early 80's Cheng Tin Hung - Dan Docherty's master was an advisor, having been a previous international lei tai champion a a famous tai chi master.

So Sanshou is an open format where Tai Chi can be practiced and tested!

As for people doing tai chi boxercise for health, fair enough, but read the thread the OP was looking for Tai Chi with a martial emphasis!

As for the "young male" comment, I infer that you mean this in a derogatory manner? In any matter, I'm not so young, and the beauty of Tai Chi as a martial art is that it can be carried on into old age, that does not mean that you can skip the necessary gung training and be lazy learning some magic technique or Shen Fa method, though I suspect many fool themselves into believing this!

Your inference is incorrect...I was merely stating a fact. I never mentioned skipping hard training, nor indeed did I mention 'magic techniques' (which we all know don't exist). I know nobody who is studying Tai Chi who thought at any stage that they were taking on 'new age mysticysm' or such like.

FYI....I'm now approaching 60yr old with 45 years hard training and fighting in martial arts....now teaching Tai Chi WITH martial applications / weapons / Push hands with 15 years of Tai Chi study...which I hope will continue until my very old age.

Niall Keane

FYI....I'm now approaching 60yr old with 45 years training and fighting in martial arts....now teaching Tai Chi WITH martial applications / weapons / Push hands.[/Quote]


Good man, I bai Shi under Dan Docherty 15 years ago and am now authorised to have students Bai Shi under me, which makes me "inside the door" and a "master" under that system. So I know and teach the complete system.
I don't believe anyone else in this country has reached the level of master in tai chi?
So please don't flaunt your experience as if it should override my own experience and knowledge. I teach all of what you have mentioned, but also inside the door methods, so 12 tui shou methods, Sanshou methods such as five element fist, gyrating arms, flying flower palm, rolling thunder palm, etc etc.. Which my guess is you have never heard of.

Dan is well known internationally, president of the tai chi and chi gung federation for Europe , chairman of the British tai chi union, head of the Wudang School, top student of the late Cheng Tin Hung (the tai chi bodyguard) The founder of the Hong Kong tai chi association.
No other lineage has had our proven success when it comes to the martial art of tai chi. That is undisputed internationally. the word "practical" tai chi Chuan was given to us by Chinese journalists in the 60's due to the success of Cheng Tin Hung and his students.

And "free" hand is a lose translation, the character means "unbound" or "scattering" and so implies self defence. That still does not contradict the fact that Sanshou is commonly understood to be a combat sport like MMA where any style can compete, but please do tell me about Sanshou now, I've only had 87 international fights!, and my students where I coached well over 100.

The ICBA are hosting a Sanshou event in Finglas on 10-11 march I believe, I'm sure Oldman can tell us when his next Kaoshu event is? Will your "martial" tai chi students be entering?

martin123123

Thanks for the information and repies..

Martin

maguffin

Niall Keane wrote: »

So I know and teach the complete system.

Wow!...so you know everything there is to know!!

I don't believe anyone else in this country has reached the level of master in tai chi?

Is this important?

So please don't flaunt your experience as if it should override my own experience and knowledge.

And you're not flaunting??

I teach all of what you have mentioned, but also inside the door methods, so 12 tui shou methods, Sanshou methods such as five element fist, gyrating arms, flying flower palm, rolling thunder palm, etc etc.. Which my guess is you have never heard of.

'Five Element Fist' is a Xingyiquan technique....not tai chi. Different systems have different names for techniques....the names are not important...it is the correct knowledge and application of the technique that is.

Dan is well known internationally, president of the tai chi and chi gung federation for Europe , chairman of the British tai chi union, head of the Wudang School, top student of the late Cheng Tin Hung (the tai chi bodyguard) The founder of the Hong Kong tai chi association.
No other lineage has had our proven success when it comes to the martial art of tai chi. That is undisputed internationally. the word "practical" tai chi Chuan was given to us by Chinese journalists in the 60's due to the success of Cheng Tin Hung and his students.

I know who Dan is.

And "free" hand is a lose translation, the character means "unbound" or "scattering" and so implies self defence. That still does not contradict the fact that Sanshou is commonly understood to be a combat sport like MMA where any style can compete, but please do tell me about Sanshou now, I've only had 87 international fights!, and my students where I coached well over 100.

I never contradicted the fact that Sanshou is a combat sport.

Niall Keane

maguffin wrote: »

Niall Keane wrote: »

So I know and teach the complete system.

Wow!...so you know everything there is to know!!

I know the entire syllabus of my style, the training methods of tai chi Chuan, the tools necessary to develop martially proficient skill. In my experience few do in any style! And many styles have lost much. I don't know who you are, but having read over the years what's on offer from many Irish tai chi schools I can state such limited systems are of little value to fighters.

I don't believe anyone else in this country has reached the level of master in tai chi?

Is this important?

It means I have reached a level of skill in a gunuine lineage, it's indicates "true transmission" and to have achieved this in a Truely martial tai chi Chuan, probably should suggest that I know what I'm talking about. And if you are a tai chi student you should already understand what it means in a system that has been transmitted master to desciple for centuries!

So please don't flaunt your experience as if it should override my own experience and knowledge.

And you're not flaunting??

I am simply retaliating, I have never mentioned this before on boards in the years I have posted. Why did you bring it up in the first place? We're you hoping I was some "young male" without a clue?

I teach all of what you have mentioned, but also inside the door methods, so 12 tui shou methods, Sanshou methods such as five element fist, gyrating arms, flying flower palm, rolling thunder palm, etc etc.. Which my guess is you have never heard of.

'Five Element Fist' is a Xingyiquan technique....not tai chi. Different systems have different names for techniques....the names are not important...it is the correct knowledge and application of the technique that is.

You are incorrect tai chi 5 element fist has nothing to do with Xing Yi. I know it still exists in the Wu, Li and Zhao Bao styles, though like Tai Chi Nei Gung it seems to have dissappeared in many other styles, notably those you do not practice for martial purposes.

Dan is well known internationally, president of the tai chi and chi gung federation for Europe , chairman of the British tai chi union, head of the Wudang School, top student of the late Cheng Tin Hung (the tai chi bodyguard) The founder of the Hong Kong tai chi association.
No other lineage has had our proven success when it comes to the martial art of tai chi. That is undisputed internationally. the word "practical" tai chi Chuan was given to us by Chinese journalists in the 60's due to the success of Cheng Tin Hung and his students.

I know who Dan is.

And "free" hand is a lose translation, the character means "unbound" or "scattering" and so implies self defence. That still does not contradict the fact that Sanshou is commonly understood to be a combat sport like MMA where any style can compete, but please do tell me about Sanshou now, I've only had 87 international fights!, and my students where I coached well over 100.

I never contradicted the fact that Sanshou is a combat sport.

The suggestion was that it is a different "style" a sport style, it is not, it is the modern development of traditional Lei Tai (platform) fighting that has been traditionally used by all styles to "try out" on, none of the "great" masters, the founders of various Tcc styles were afraid to get their hands dirty with these "competitions", in many cases it's how they made their name. The fact that so many who claim to be martial are divorced from the concept of sanshou competition shows how seperated they have become from the roots of their art!

gb153

The most important part of any tai chi system is the development of jing. There are probably a few different explanations of what it is but one explanation is that it is a vibrational force within the skeletal system. It is what gives tai chi movements their substance and without it the martial art applications of tai chi are simply techniques that may be common to any external martial art.

Watch the power of the movements demonstrated by Chen Xiaowang in the clip below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrF_o9BdJ4M

The development of jing will also coincide with learning the principals of tai chi movements such as the alignment of the body and the use of full body movements. I would say that vast majority of tai chi practitioners do not reach the point of jing development necessary for high level martial art application as it takes extreme dedication. This doesn't stop the form or other non martial application practices such as standing meditations from being the core of what is taught and practiced in a lot of systems.

However the principals of tai chi do provide skills which are applicable to fighting whether it is push hands or otherwise. Many systems will train push hands and free hand fighting early on but without jing the movements will be empty. Empty does not mean ineffective as the throws and strikes could be as effective as judo or some striking martial art. They will be empty in relation to what makes an internal art different to an external martial art.

I think words or youtube clips don't really do it justice. Experiencing it first hand by being on the receiving end of a throw is one way but some will never accept this until a "supposed" tai chi master wins a major MMA fight. I would like to see this myself but I don't need it to justify whether the system I am training in is right for me. And no I am not just in this for health benefits but neither am I in this for a get rich quick, go to college before primary school exercise.

Niall Keane

gb153 wrote: »

The most important part of any tai chi system is the development of jing. There are probably a few different explanations of what it is but one explanation is that it is a vibrational force within the skeletal system. It is what gives tai chi movements their substance and without it the martial art applications of tai chi are simply techniques that may be common to any external martial art.

Watch the power of the movements demonstrated by Chen Xiaowang in the clip below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrF_o9BdJ4M

The development of jing will also coincide with learning the principals of tai chi movements such as the alignment of the body and the use of full body movements. I would say that vast majority of tai chi practitioners do not reach the point of jing development necessary for high level martial art application as it takes extreme dedication. This doesn't stop the form or other non martial application practices such as standing meditations from being the core of what is taught and practiced in a lot of systems.

However the principals of tai chi do provide skills which are applicable to fighting whether it is push hands or otherwise. Many systems will train push hands and free hand fighting early on but without jing the movements will be empty. Empty does not mean ineffective as the throws and strikes could be as effective as judo or some striking martial art. They will be empty in relation to what makes an internal art different to an external martial art.

I think words or youtube clips don't really do it justice. Experiencing it first hand by being on the receiving end of a throw is one way but some will never accept this until a "supposed" tai chi master wins a major MMA fight. I would like to see this myself but I don't need it to justify whether the system I am training in is right for me. And no I am not just in this for health benefits but neither am I in this for a get rich quick, go to college before primary school exercise.

I presume you mean Jin - educated force in the right direction and not jing - vital essence or for a male semen, which in Daoism can be converted to chi (vital energy/ flow - cardio vascular / nervous / digestive systems) then Shen (spirit)?
It is one thing to understand these concepts intellectually, it is quite another to be able to apply them, and I dont mean in forms. The tai chi system , I should say the complete system under good guidance can achieve these goals as they are not in fact esoteric, but half the art in china is known as "tufu Chuan" or bean curd boxing as it consintrates on the yin aspects only and never deals with the other yang half of tai chi.
Those videos demonstrate an idea, not martially of "Shen Fa" or body methods, which in traditional tai chi are not called Jin or jing but the concept of "Cai liang" (gathering the wave) this is also a traditional tui shou method. At tai chi callodania some years back my Sifu Dan Docherty was asked to translate a Chen masters class, he knewost westerns didn't understand the concept of Cai liang so translated in other terms.
In the west many tai chi practitioners substitute incorrect concepts and phrases for what's actually being done. There is a language barrier, and of we tecearch further in china there are dialect barriers, so no wonder a true transmission has a hard time surfacing, but eventually there is an ultimate test.... Does what you do work? Yang Li chan made it work, Cheng Tin Hung made it work, Dan Docherty made it work, I and my students made it work. The question regardIng the OPs question is "have you made it work?" and to take another Chinese leaders quote - Mao Tse Tung - "no evidence, no right to speak"

Niall Keane

I'm not sorry, I feel aggressive and pissed off with those who have brought tai chi to being the laughing stock of martial arts, I and yang Lu Chan can feel an affinity, we both fought, we both knew how to use tai chi Chuan as an effective martial art, the rest of you "play" at tai chi and have the arrogance to assume because you do the form, practice some compliant tui shou and maybe dance with swords that you are Kin, you are not, Lu chan would despise the charlatans that pretend to be fighters as any fighter would, in the immortal words of Cheng Tin Hung when he threw Wu King Yi to the ground "your gung fu is all in the mouth, not in the hands!"
Those of you who pretend to be martial without experience are a disgrace to the entire system, you denigrate the efforts of genuine masters, you allow the fallacy of being a fighter without fighting to pass down, you cheat those genuiningly interested in martial arts and betray the sacrifice of those who have given up so much of their lives to become skilled!

gb153

Just some constructive criticism while we're giving written corrections Niall. Can you put some spaces between your paragraphs and re-read your posts before you submit them. A lot of spelling errors and some sentences are 7/8 lines long and are difficult to read. Mods in other forums sometimes pull up on posts like this.

I think I've contributed to this thread as much as I want to. (Leaves with head hanging in shame as a disgrace to the entire system.)

Niall Keane

Apologies... iPhone limited, you'd want to see what apple technology wanted to post!

Btw, to hell with head hanging in shame, practice more free tuishou and Sanshou, join the ranks of tai chi fighters, make it martial!

maguffin

Niall Keane wrote: »

I'm not sorry, I feel aggressive and pissed off with those who have brought tai chi to being the laughing stock of martial arts, I and yang Lu Chan can feel an affinity, we both fought, we both knew how to use tai chi Chuan as an effective martial art, the rest of you "play" at tai chi and have the arrogance to assume because you do the form, practice some compliant tui shou and maybe dance with swords that you are Kin, you are not, Lu chan would despise the charlatans that pretend to be fighters as any fighter would, in the immortal words of Cheng Tin Hung when he threw Wu King Yi to the ground "your gung fu is all in the mouth, not in the hands!"
Those of you who pretend to be martial without experience are a disgrace to the entire system, you denigrate the efforts of genuine masters, you allow the fallacy of being a fighter without fighting to pass down, you cheat those genuiningly interested in martial arts and betray the sacrifice of those who have given up so much of their lives to become skilled!

I think Niall, the disgrace here is yours….quoting a communist leader to get across your point. Mao Zedong was responsible for as many as 45 million deaths from starvation during the 'Great Leap Forward'. Tens of thousands killed and millions of lives ruined during the 'Cultural Revolution'.

Also, as a so-called ‘master’ you certainly haven’t learned the lessons of humility and acceptance of other peoples interpretations of the art of Tai Chi.

You, and your students prime focus is ‘fighting’….not everyone wants to fight…not everyone studies Tai Chi for its martial components…..we are all dfferent…with different needs and aspirations..that’s what makes the whole thing interesting.

For me, I approach my fighting with the essence of ‘Hun’.

Literally translated it is a trait that encompasses all the elements of ferocity, cruelty and viciousness. It is little less than natural killer instinct. However 'hun' must not be confused with emotion, such as anger or revenge which instead cloud judgement, suppleness, and clarity of thought - the qualities we need most in combat. Like the lion stalking it's prey, it is patient, motionless in the reeds, with the mind focused on one single aim. Ready to seize the prey without remorse, only at the perfect moment.

Yet unlike the lion, Tai Chi Chuan is a measured art with tremendous power. The need to kill is not always a matter of necessity or survival. Instead the 'hun' in Tai Chi is carefully titrated and measured to neutralise the varying potencies of opposition, as quickly and efficiently as possible.
This is the makings of an exceptional Tai Chi fighter, the unity of skills, the accuracy of attack, and the courage of his convictions.

So, don’t make un-educated assumptions about those of us out here, who train with just as much martial enthusiasm as you claim to….but without the need to constantly prove a point.

Niall Keane

Again this whole thread was about someone searching for tai chi with a martil emphasis.

Clearly you have no "proof" just conjecture.

Your take on a tai chi fighters strategy is also incorrect, we do not "neutralise" each attack, that would be "tufu Chuan" all yin. But don't take my word read the classics, key phrases like "the jin is broken but the intent unbroken" this like all matters tai chi has a yin and yang, so we don't empty an opponents attack and make it nothing, we move and follow breaking his technique but not his intent, we use that and his power against him. This is using " four ounces to destroy 1000 pounds"This is very different to the passive neutralising of force you suggest.

You claim you have as much martial focus, prove it, surely someone in your style has done so? Or do you expect people to "believe" how you alone perceive your skill?

Do you and your students test your skills? Competitively against trained opponents that want to knock you out?

Do you even spar, and I don't mean playing tag, I mean regular heavy sparring?

Do you practice tai chi auxiliary excercises such a handstands on fists, punching with weights, striking pads etc, ie developing the gung to deliver powerful attacks?

Do you practice any Nei Gung that trains the body to be able to withstand serious force?

Do you train tai chi entering strategy and it's connection to recovery an counter potential?

Do you spar with weapons?

Do you practice free tui shou, with sweeps and all throws?

Have you ever competed in tui shou or Sanshou etc.?

Are there people you train with that are Tai chi fighters? Ie maybe you don't, but surely if you train with "martial emphasis" someone you train with must fight?


As for humility, please, people want to do tai chi for health, that's their business, but when people are looking for the "real deal", dont expect me not to pass comment on the bs out there. That would be remiss.

Doug Cartel

gb153 wrote: »

Mods in other forums sometimes pull up on posts like this.

Worry about what mods on other forums do when you're on other forums please.

smacl

martin123123 wrote: »

I would have thought some clubs would practice a randori type exercise to test against resisting opponents?
im all for this type training hence why i posted the original tread.personally i feel it can be done without competition were win lose is not the conclusion but u get to test your skills.This is adaquate in my view..

Just a general post about pushing hands competitions if you haven't tried them, as I know many people find the whole concept of competition to be daunting. They tend to include a number of formats, including fixed step (i.e. just trying to put the other person of balance, knocking them over, from a static position) and moving step which is basically a form of stand up wrestling. Regardless of experience or skill levels, you see very few injuries (other than pride) and the atmosphere is typically very friendly. They also provide an excellent opportunity to see how other people train and the skills that they posses. Personally, I've always preferred to compete against those than are better than me, and I'm seldom disappointed at major events.

If you're not going to compete, I'd suggest it is essential to go to as many open seminars and camps as possible, to practice with a wide range of people. One problem with training in a small group is you get too attuned to the various strengths and weaknesses in the group, and IMHO your skills are liable to suffer as a result. Tai Chi Caledaonia, and Rencontres Jasnieres are two great events in this regarded, that are attended by a range of different styles. I'd agree entirely with Niall in the idea that you've little idea of what skills you do or don't posses until you try them out against people you don't know, and who don't know you.

The biggest problem with pushing hands competitions and free practice in Ireland is that there aren't any, you really have to travel. This is a shame, as most people who practice against a non-compliant partner will tell you its great gas, with the added advantage you'll still be able work the next day. I reckon one of the major reasons that BJJ is flourishing over here is that it also appears to offer the same thing.

moviemagic

Mod note: You need to make more effort to take part in the forum if you want to promote your club.

irateghost

Hi, seeing as the tai chi practitioners of ireland are out in force I was wondering do any of you know if any of jim uglow's students teach in ireland ?

Shane McMunn

There was a club in Sligo a few years ago but the instructor moved away. I still train with Jim, but mostly Hung Kuen.

irateghost

Oh yeah the good old wado kai Still a shame there's no one teaching it in Ireland nowadays.

Shane McMunn

Watch this space
Could be a while but Jim's brand of Tai Chi will come back to Sligo.