Contractor Umbrella Companies - Options?

CptSternn

Hi everyone.

I have been browsing through the various posts about the contracting companies here in Ireland and was wondering if we could comprise a list of all the groups out there? I only know of two, CXC and Prima as I have worked with both of them.

I must say, I was underwhelmed with both and both companies working two different contracts both found a way to screw up my pay both times I worked for them.

I am losing faith in these companies quickly as they can't seem to pay their contractors consistently, on-time.

Are there other options? What other companies offer this service out there?

twilight_singer

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=74383368

some info in this thread for ya

CptSternn

I was looking at that.

So the options are:

CXC

Prima

Fenero

Thats it in the entire country (with the exception of hiring your own accountant or doing it yourself) ?

simonrooneyzaga

is it standard enough for these companies to charge you for both Employers and Employees PRSI?

daigo75

simonrooneyzaga wrote: »

is it standard enough for these companies to charge you for both Employers and Employees PRSI?

I was actually asking myself the same thing, as, in such case, I would find it absurd to become a "contractor".
After a quick comparison, I came out with this result:
- Employee: work Monday to Friday 9 to 5, unpaid overtime, paid holidays, (possibly) paid sick days.
- "Contractor", Irish-style: work Monday to Friday 9 to 5, unpaid overtime, no paid holidays, no paid sick days, extra taxes and levies to pay, all the risks of a self-employment. Income would be higher by a mere 17.5%, in my case, which doesn't justify this choice at all.

Mrs OBumble

daigo75 wrote: »

I was actually asking myself the same thing, as, in such case, I would find it absurd to become a "contractor".
After a quick comparison, I came out with this result:
- Employee: work Monday to Friday 9 to 5, unpaid overtime, paid holidays, (possibly) paid sick days.
- "Contractor", Irish-style: work Monday to Friday 9 to 5, unpaid overtime, no paid holidays, no paid sick days, extra taxes and levies to pay, all the risks of a self-employment. Income would be higher by a mere 17.5%, in my case, which doesn't justify this choice at all.

Good conclusion .. except I'd add in training (paid for employees, not paid for contractors - both time and fees), and employment law protection, and access to social welfare if the work ends.

The last bit is why some people choose to be an employee of an umbrella company and to pay the employer PRSI: it gets you a class A "stamp" each week, so keeps you eligible.

I'm be wanting a good bit more than 18% to compensate, myself.

daigo75

JustMary wrote: »

I'm be wanting a good bit more than 18% to compensate, myself.

Precisely what I meant. I used to be self employed in my own Country, and, being a contractor, I worked as a contractor:
- My hourly rates were almost double the ones I'd have received as an employee.
- I didn't have interviews with my customers (this is something I find ridiculous, as if you would interview a plumber or an electrician). I provided them with a quote for a job, and they simply decided if they liked it or not.
- I didn't necessarily go there myself as, sometimes, I would sub-contract and my duty was to provide a result and respect agreed (not dictated) deadlines. Meetings aside, I was able to organize my day as I saw fit, and manage various contracts at once. This is another crucial aspect of being self employed; being mono-customer makes little sense, if any at all.
- If someone was explicitly asking for my presence, full time, I'd charge them extra due to the inconvenience of being unable to follow other customers (i.e. single customer = higher risk = charge a premium).
- There were no daily rates, as I either charged a fixed price per project or charged hourly, and applied overtime rates over a certain amount of hours or if worked evenings, weekends, etc. Such rates were up to 300% the normal rate, e.g. for an emergency during a Sunday/Bank Holiday.

All the above was not during a "celtic tiger" boom, just normal economic times, and that's the only way I would ever consider becoming self-employed again.

Jim2007

daigo75 wrote: »

I was actually asking myself the same thing, as, in such case, I would find it absurd to become a "contractor".
After a quick comparison, I came out with this result:
- Employee: work Monday to Friday 9 to 5, unpaid overtime, paid holidays, (possibly) paid sick days.
- "Contractor", Irish-style: work Monday to Friday 9 to 5, unpaid overtime, no paid holidays, no paid sick days, extra taxes and levies to pay, all the risks of a self-employment. Income would be higher by a mere 17.5%, in my case, which doesn't justify this choice at all.

This is the way body shopping works all over Europe, there is nothing new in it except that rates have fallen over the past 5 or 6 years because in addition to the general recession, you are now competing with InfoSys, Tata, CSC and the rest... and yes as a result there is very little difference between the employee salary and the contractor's take home, in fact if you count in the potential down time between contracts it is often less:(

Those of us who lived through the late 80's and 90's and worked European contacts made a pack in this game, but those days are long gone and at this point in time a permanent position is probably a better option in most cases.

eoinf

I am with cxc and while i dont have a problem with them per se i dont feel that i get much for my €2000+ a year. In the new year i am seriously going to consider going out pn my own. Has anyone done this ? Any advice? Or are there cheaper management companys.

CptSternn

eoinf wrote: »

I am with cxc and while i dont have a problem with them per se i dont feel that i get much for my €2000+ a year. In the new year i am seriously going to consider going out pn my own. Has anyone done this ? Any advice? Or are there cheaper management companys.

Here's what I know from experience...

I was with CXC originally a few years ago. I found them a bit expensive as well and after shopping around a bit I switched to Prima who were cheaper. I found Prima also for some reason got me more deductions and I got more money each week (I switched mid-contract and was getting a few bob more). That worked well until last month when I switched contracts and the eejits at Prima had me slapped with emergency tax because they failed to send in my P45 and tax cert, which they had as they were the ones handling my previous contract a few weeks before but somehow managed to not only forget this but to even mention it to me until I got my first pay check and half of it was gone.

So I have now switched to Fenero and so far so good.

To answer your question of all the crowds I have worked with and all the contractors I have known the consensus is CXC is expensive and they don't get you the best value on your deductions and credits.

eoinf

I made some inquiries and here is what the fees are looking like for monthly payroll as a director (class s) in an Umbrella company.

• CXC 5% upto €215 P/M
• Prima €150 P/M flat fee
• Fenero €95 P/M flat fee

Big big difference in fee's.

I Put it to CXC and they claimed they are a premium service and their fees represent good value for money and that they were ~€300 p/m in previous years.

I am toying with the idea of setting up my own Ltd company as there may potential of a couple of different contracts running in parallel later this year. Again there is are big differences in the monthly fee.

• CXC €150-€250 PM + €200 start-up + €20 annual file fee
• Prima €195 PM no start-up costs & inc annual file fee's
• Fenero €119 PM + €150 start up, not sure about any additional annual fees

As i already stated i have no problem with CXC. They solve any issues that may arise , pay promptly and rarely mess things up. However i am not sure what extra i am getting for extra potentially €700-€1,400 per year.

I am impressed with Prima , based on my conversations with them and unless I can be persuaded otherwise will probably see myself changing over as a director of an umbrella company or by setting up my own Ltd Company.

Has anyone done this ?
Is it as seamless as they make out?

blobbie

CptSternn wrote: »

Here's what I know from experience...

....

So I have now switched to Fenero and so far so good.

....

Hiya,

Just wondering how you are finding Fenero as I am starting a contract soon and will probably outsource to Prima or Fenero.

Cheers.

CptSternn

blobbie wrote: »

Hiya,

Just wondering how you are finding Fenero as I am starting a contract soon and will probably outsource to Prima or Fenero.

Cheers.

I finished my contract a couple months ago but I have to say I was well impressed with Fenero. They did a great job with my books, got me more deductions than some of the others, and were always available when I needed to speak with them.

srsly78

Regarding employers prsi:
Some umbrellas offer an option where they set you up as proprietary director - then there is no employers prsi to pay. However you then are on class S prsi so no stamps (big deal).

And as others have said, umbrellas are a massive waste of money. Just operate your own company, accountantcy fees are a lot cheaper than umbrella, is a lot easier to operate (one less middleman), and gives you a lot more options (it's your company not theirs).

Umbrellas are only suitable for someone experimenting with contracting, no serious contractor uses an umbrella.

Take anything the umbrella tells you with a pinch of salt, they will say anything to get you to sign up. One example is how some of them claim to save you tax, by making you more efficient. This is bull****, the same laws apply to everyone. It's assumed that you avail of any available reliefs anyway, anything more than that is breaking the law. As can be seen, if you are paying employers prsi you are actually WORSE off - and you pay the umbrella for the privilege.

blobbie

I am in the

srsly78 wrote: »

.....someone experimenting with contracting.....

camp with a 6m gig.

Will see how it goes and if I keep contracting I'll definitely setup my own Ltd Co. For this 1st contract I am looking at the Director of Umbrella Co, option most likely with Fenero.

Thanks for the feedback folks.

CptSternn

Wow, I started this thread back in 2007 and here I am posting to it again seven years later.

Ok, so per my OP I started contracting in early 2000 with CXC. Not knowing much about contracting at the time I thought they were great, until I saw what some of my coworkers who also were on contract for the same amount were getting. CXC doesn't seem to put in for as many deductions nor do they allow you to write off things you should be able to write off. FYI, they are now called 'Contracting Plus'.

I then a couple years later moved to Prima. They seemed good at first but had a problem paying me on time. If my contracting company paid them on a Friday or weekend, they would not have it in my account until Wednesday sometimes meaning I would have an extra 5 days or so I was not expecting without pay. This happened one too many times and I dropped these guys.

I am now with Fenero and have been since my OP back in 2007, but as of today I am once again looking to change umbrella companies. Fenero was good for 7 years, I had a single point of contact who was amazing and rang me if there were issues. All of a sudden this year I get some new people, not a guy, but people. I have people sending me questions about stuff I already sent to someone else who asked me the same question last week, they say they cant find a form and I have to tell them such and such already asked me for it and I sent it to them, and then today my wages are now four days late, first time EVER in seven years, and they keep telling me its taking time to process and that the recruiting company paid them late - something my recruiting company denies and sent me an accounting slip that states funds were transferred to Fenero last THURSDAY. Fenero has gone from being my favourite accounting company in Ireland to the company of late payments, lost paperwork, and lots of excuses.

I am thinking of switching to Icon. Anyone else use them or have any experiences with them to share? Or any other alternatives? It seems a few new ones are now on the market.

srsly78

As said already - just get rid of the middlemen, form your own company.

CptSternn

srsly78 wrote: »

As said already - just get rid of the middlemen, form your own company.

That's not really an option. From an economic standpoint the whole opportunity costs are too high. I don't have time to keep my own books. I mean, I like to service my own car and am well capable of doing so, but find when I am not working I spend my free time with friends and family which is worth more than whatever I would be saving by doing all my own paperwork.

I just need someone reliable who gets the job done properly, on-time instead of just giving me excuses.

srsly78

You hire an accountant, he does most of that. It's pretty much the same as using an umbrella, but cheaper. The end of year return is the tricky part, the normal book-keeping is trivial - you issue 1 invoice per month.

As it stands you have to do a lot of paperwork anyway (expenses receipts etc), and then submit it to umbrella. There is no difference in workload, just a saving of a few grand and more options.

Surely there are other contractors where you work? Ask them how they do things.

CptSternn

I wanted to follow up with my previous post. Since I made that post a few things happened -

First, Fenero were brilliant and rang me personally to discuss my issues. We dealt with them in a very professional and amicable manner. I could not have been happier. Also as it turns out Bank Of Ireland had computer issues which led to the payment related issue to begin with and BOI sent out an email to confirm this so Fenero wasn't responsible and they also advised me in cases of late payments when it is their fault they do not charge for the month, which is a brilliant policy. They also have implemented a new online customer service tracking system which so far has been really good as all queries I put through have been answered thoroughly most of the time the same day.

So I am sticking with them for now and actually happy about the new changes they have made.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/bank-investigates-glitch-that-leaves-many-without-wages-1.1910714