Good Quote From Sindo's Editorial

who_ru

'One of the more astonishing features of modern Ireland is the galloping ignorance of our educated citizenry, who complain about being conned by the banks and the politicians but yet, like James Everett's famous 1950s man in his 'settle bed' will always choose The X Factor over The Week in Politics'.

i thought the expression 'galloping ignorance' was really spot on. i work with people who are all parents, 30 years of age or over, and most of them sigh at the mention of a political discussion, cringe at the prospect an economic discussion. One in particular, a 30 year old woman, doesn't even know which parties are in government, most people don't know who their TD is, but all of them watch the x factor, i'm a celebrity, or whatever/whoever the hell happens to be on ice on tv.

thebman

Well the two don't clash, a lot of RTE's political programmes are actually on quite late so people who commute a long way can't watch them as they have to get their sleep to be functional for work the next day.

Not just an RTE problem, TV3 are the same way with Vincent Brown.

Now that it is valid excuse, plenty of commute time programmes highlight political issues. The reality is people don't care unless it directly affects their lives or everyone else is talking about and they need to know.

The reason they watch the Xfactor is it is all positive all the time with only pseudo-shock moments that don't really matter and it is marketed very heavily so most people are watching it and the rest follow so they can have something to talk about at the water cooler.

Manach

I'd assume this is a fairly common issue in most Western representive democracies. The attitude that the elected officials take care of the day-to-day issues and politics as a topic comes only into revelance periodically, say during elections. Saying that, I'd reckon that areas that practice a more town-hall style format, such as regular meetings with Q&A with the politicians, might have a better educated citizenry.

southsiderosie

who_ru wrote: »

'One of the more astonishing features of modern Ireland [INSERT COUNTRY HERE] is the galloping ignorance of our educated citizenry, who complain about being conned by the banks and the politicians but yet, like James Everett's famous 1950s man in his 'settle bed' will always choose The X Factor over The Week in Politics' [INSERT MINDLESS POP CULTURE OVER 'HARD NEWS' HERE].

FYP.

I don't think this is an Irish thing; it seems to be fairly common. That said, was there ever a time when the general citizenry cared a great deal about current events or politics? Sometimes I think that we envision some past 'golden era' where everyone was well-informed, and cared about good governance, etc., but to be honest I would guess it's like anything else: 20% of the people do 80% of the work.

southsiderosie

Manach wrote: »

I'd assume this is a fairly common issue in most Western representive democracies. The attitude that the elected officials take care of the day-to-day issues and politics as a topic comes only into revelance periodically, say during elections. Saying that, I'd reckon that areas that practice a more town-hall style format, such as regular meetings with Q&A with the politicians, might have a better educated citizenry.

But there is a chicken-or-the-egg conundrum there: do they have town hall meetings because they are more educated about politics, or do they more educated about politics because they have town hall meetings?

Liam Byrne

thebman wrote: »

...... and the rest follow so they can have something to talk about at the water cooler.

Ah, no......some of us aren't that insecure or that much of a sell-out.

The fact that something like that was written in the Sindo is a candidate for an Alanis Morrisette lyric, though - since when did "knowing your facts and not falling for populist banalities" even register on their agenda ?

woodoo

southsiderosie wrote: »

I don't think this is an Irish thing; it seems to be fairly common. That said, was there ever a time when the general citizenry cared a great deal about current events or politics?

Yeah Its certainly not just an Irish thing. But in most other countries the people will soon perk up once they are affected by cuts. They will then kick up a fuss and protest. Not in Ireland though. We just don't do anything even when we know what is happening is blatantly unfair.

nesf

woodoo wrote: »

Yeah Its certainly not just an Irish thing. But in most other countries the people will soon perk up once they are affected by cuts. They will then kick up a fuss and protest. Not in Ireland though. We just don't do anything even when we know what is happening is blatantly unfair.

Much of this comes from austerity being in the Zeitgeist from the 70s and 80s. Anyone 30-40 remembers growing up when money was scarce and taxes high and anyone 50+ remembers trying to raise a family in that time. Makes us far more amenable to necessary cuts in public spending than the Med countries who've never had to do this in the past century.

nesf

southsiderosie wrote: »

But there is a chicken-or-the-egg conundrum there: do they have town hall meetings because they are more educated about politics, or do they more educated about politics because they have town hall meetings?

Yeah exactly. If we had town hall meetings here they'd just be dominated by whatever hot button local issue was at the time, hospital, bypass, whatever. They'd do feck all to educate the people on national issues etc.

Suryavarman

southsiderosie wrote: »

But there is a chicken-or-the-egg conundrum there: do they have town hall meetings because they are more educated about politics, or do they more educated about politics because they have town hall meetings?

I'm inclined to go for the latter. A lot of people were angry with the recent budget for example, so they end up going down to a town hall meeting to voice their anger but they end up getting reasons for why certain decisions are being taken and understand the decisions better. They might also learn more about other decisions that are being taken.

Town hall meetings also give curious people an opportunity to get involved and learn more about the political process.

nesf

Suryavarman wrote: »

I'm inclined to go for the latter. A lot of people were angry with the recent budget for example, so they end up going down to a town hall meeting to voice their anger but they end up getting reasons for why certain decisions are being taken and understand the decisions better. They might also learn more about other decisions that are being taken.

Town hall meetings also give curious people an opportunity to get involved and learn more about the political process.

You're assuming the politicians present, especially the Opposition ones, wouldn't just turn it into a chance to turn local anger into future votes.

Suryavarman

nesf wrote: »

You're assuming the politicians present, especially the Opposition ones, wouldn't just turn it into a chance to turn local anger into future votes.

I was actually assuming the opposition politicians wouldn't be there . The current opposition is so pathetically bad that these meetings would soon descend into a farce. That isn't to say the politicians in power are much better but it would still give them an opportunity to explain their actions and maybe get more people interested in politics.

nesf

Suryavarman wrote: »

I was actually assuming the opposition politicians wouldn't be there . The current opposition is so pathetically bad that these meetings would soon descend into a farce. That isn't to say the politicians in power are much better but it would still give them an opportunity to explain their actions and maybe get more people interested in politics.

No but the problem would be the Opposition politicians would be playing to the crowd after the town hall in the local media etc, so even if there weren't Opposition politicians there there still would be massive pressure to play the local angle.

Suryavarman

nesf wrote: »

No but the problem would be the Opposition politicians would be playing to the crowd after the town hall in the local media etc, so even if there weren't Opposition politicians there there still would be massive pressure to play the local angle.

I suppose you're correct. O well, a man can dream.

SamHarris

who_ru wrote: »

'One of the more astonishing features of modern Ireland is the galloping ignorance of our educated citizenry, who complain about being conned by the banks and the politicians but yet, like James Everett's famous 1950s man in his 'settle bed' will always choose The X Factor over The Week in Politics'.

i thought the expression 'galloping ignorance' was really spot on. i work with people who are all parents, 30 years of age or over, and most of them sigh at the mention of a political discussion, cringe at the prospect an economic discussion. One in particular, a 30 year old woman, doesn't even know which parties are in government, most people don't know who their TD is, but all of them watch the x factor, i'm a celebrity, or whatever/whoever the hell happens to be on ice on tv.

Its much more than not merely being aware of issues, it is constantly complaining about certain things, like aspects of our society or the dominance of certain interests but then through every ACTION reinforcing those interests or aspects. I think of people complaining about banks but constantly taking loans, complaining about oil and the wars to get it but then doing little to nothing to reduce their own massive dependance on it. Complaining about poverty and inequality but believing the cut off point for "enough " is always suspiciously close but above their own income/ wage/ assets. Complaining about American dominance and consuming American technology and media voracsiously.

This happens throughout Irish society and is stunningly common. The ignorace of events is only the tip of the iceberg. The complete unwillingness to take the slightest action to affect the change or outcome people will pay lip service to wanting is far and away the bigger problem.

southsiderosie

nesf wrote: »

Much of this comes from austerity being in the Zeitgeist from the 70s and 80s. Anyone 30-40 remembers growing up when money was scarce and taxes high and anyone 50+ remembers trying to raise a family in that time. Makes us far more amenable to necessary cuts in public spending than the Med countries who've never had to do this in the past century.

The Spanish had problems with economic crisis in the 80s, and you still see a lot of elderly people who are extremely short because they were malnourished as children during and after the Spanish civil war. Of all the eurozone countries, mass prosperity really was a first for both Spain and Ireland (well, in the post-industrial age at least). But the Spanish and the Irish have reacted in very different ways to the crisis: the 'indignado' movement was really the first series of mass, sustained protests in the industrialized world. I spent most of 2009-2011 moving between Spain and Ireland, and the reaction to the crisis in both countries has been like night and day. So I don't think that it is familiarity with austerity; I think it has more to do with the political culture.

nesf

southsiderosie wrote: »

The Spanish had problems with economic crisis in the 80s, and you still see a lot of elderly people who are extremely short because they were malnourished as children during and after the Spanish civil war. Of all the eurozone countries, mass prosperity really was a first for both Spain and Ireland (well, in the post-industrial age at least). But the Spanish and the Irish have reacted in very different ways to the crisis: the 'indignado' movement was really the first series of mass, sustained protests in the industrialized world. I spent most of 2009-2011 moving between Spain and Ireland, and the reaction to the crisis in both countries has been like night and day. So I don't think that it is familiarity with austerity; I think it has more to do with the political culture.

That wasn't voluntary austerity by democratic Government though in Spain's case.

southsiderosie

nesf wrote: »

That wasn't voluntary austerity by democratic Government though in Spain's case.

But in the 80s it was - and the Spanish responded with massive protests and a general strike.

thebman

southsiderosie wrote: »

But in the 80s it was - and the Spanish responded with massive protests and a general strike.

The only reason we haven't had strikes has been the CPA protection racket in place because of political lobbying.

That and the massive amount of waste has meant our austerity to date hasn't actually been noticeable. It is actually fairly damning of the way we were doing things IMO.

Imagine how much extra infrastructure we could have built when you discover the stupid amount of waste going on in our system that they've been able to cut out now that it is their wages or the waste.

Scary really IMO.

nesf

southsiderosie wrote: »

But in the 80s it was - and the Spanish responded with massive protests and a general strike.

I was talking about the civil war.

Dannyboy83

It's more than just ignorance - Irish people actually don't want to know.

I used to post a lot of the items which I considered scandalous on my facebook account - I stopped doing that because I realised I had been put on ignore by so many Irish people.

Two observations.
1) A lot of Irish people simply don't give a damn until it affects them personally i.e. in their pocket.
2) Those who do care, have stopped discussing politics, because they understand that they cannot change anything.

I guess I would tend to fit somewhat into the latter category now really.
It's unfortunate, but I think the window of opportunity for change has now closed.

Most of those who ever did care are have become cynical beyond belief (I'd include myself there, along with many of the regular posters on this forum) and the rest of the people are just burned out with this crisis and simply don't want to know.

Liam Byrne

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

It's more than just ignorance - Irish people actually don't want to know.

Agreed. I used to post links to scandals and corruption but most people it seems would prefer to post and read about tripe like Z-factor or unsubstantiated gossip about what deluded self-important "celeb" had for breakfast.

I can, to an extent, understand the burnout and despair (some posters here have even pulled me up on how cynical I've become since I realised that FG/Lab have no intention of being fair and genuine) and you really can't blame them.

There appears to be no way of changing the Irish political landscape. Those who support corruption, incompetence and greed will, it appears, always get their way at both ends of the scale, while those of us who are in the middle and try to act sensibly get squeezed dry.

Boskowski

It's not just an Irish phenomenon I think, it's pretty much part of western society and it's part of how the game works unfortunately.

southsiderosie

nesf wrote: »

I was talking about the civil war.

I know, and my earlier post referred to both the civil war era and the 80s when Spain, like Ireland, was forced to re-evaluate a lot of their economic policies (they did this in the 60s as well, but under different political circumstances). But my main point is that I don't think that Ireland is that 'special' of a case - when it comes to poverty - when you look at other peripheral European countries in the 20th century. But it does seem to be an outlier when it comes to political mobilization, and in particular protest/street politics.

nesf

southsiderosie wrote: »

I know, and my earlier post referred to both the civil war era and the 80s when Spain, like Ireland, was forced to re-evaluate a lot of their economic policies (they did this in the 60s as well, but under different political circumstances). But my main point is that I don't think that Ireland is that 'special' of a case - when it comes to poverty - when you look at other peripheral European countries in the 20th century. But it does seem to be an outlier when it comes to political mobilization, and in particular protest/street politics.

We're not a special case of poverty definitely. I was more thinking of that we have it in recent enough memory that balancing the budget can sort out the economy. This is quite lacking in many of the Med countries. Greece has never had to face up to its economic mess for instance in living memory.

ilovesleep

Agree with Dannyboy and Liam above. There is a lot of blind ignorance and selfishness. Was explaining to my mom last week after the budget that Enda and Joan Burton awarded their advisors pay increases at a time that we are all going down the austerity path - that's scandalous. It's an insult to each and every one of us. Also told her that the politicans awarded themselves an increase in expense allowances. She didn't care nor did she want to know. Yet if her pocket was severely hit, that's all she'd care about.

Even voting last Feb, she had the attitude of what did they ever do for me. I wanted a bus shelter for years (pothole politics. How can this be eraded?)

There are far too much people sitting comfy for them to care enough. Wait until they are directly and severely hit though. That will be a different story. Just goes to show how greedy and selfish this nation is. If there will be any future protest, it will be for all the wrong reasons, no doubt eg Give It Back instead of a protest for fairness.

Liam Byrne

Boskowski wrote: »

It's not just an Irish phenomenon I think, it's pretty much part of western society and it's part of how the game works unfortunately.

Attitudes like that will allow that mentality to win out, though!

Why is it "how the game works" and how can those of us who refuse to play dirty turn things around to create a better society ?

thebman

There appears to be a lack of civic duty in Ireland and a lot of people out for themselves.

Guess we can blame the lack of proper civics in schools and a broken parish pump political system.

Boskowski

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Attitudes like that will allow that mentality to win out, though!

Why is it "how the game works" and how can those of us who refuse to play dirty turn things around to create a better society ?

I'm with you and that's actually what I personally strive for but I'm not sure it can be done. I'm not sure man is capable of doing things right.

RichardAnd

This is an interesting thread. Speaking as someone with a huge interest in politics, I can say that many, many people treat the subject as an odious topic if ever there was one. I can't recall the amount of times I've sat down to dinner with family and heard something like, "Ok, now no talk of politics!"

This is quite understandable in a way and indeed, there is a time and a place for everything. Ireland is a very depressing place right now and many days, I feel very drained by what I read and see but I still keep reading and watching because in my mind, ignorance is the first step towards apathy. Distractions are all well and good but they are just that.

As for the X Factor, the Apprentice, Big Brother or the many other flavours of mental chewing gum, I can only say that such things are to a healthy mind as fish and chips are to a healthy body. Bad eating habits and dietary warning are more prevalent now than ever but what of poor mental simulation? Lashings of Family Guy with a side order of Twilight is not conducive to creating an informed individual that would be aware of the issues that plague them. If one must switch off, why not do so with a real novel, a great film, some proper music or even a craft?

PErhaps I went on a tangent there but what I'm trying to say is that the state is being dragged into a very frightening place and it's people don't seem to care. I'm not one for conspiracies but if this whole thing is planned (and I sometimes thing that it partly is), then then oligarchs are at the drawing board must be delighted with the Irish people.

steelcityblues

In typical fashion - it is a poor editorial piece from the Sindo.

Trying to blame peoples television habits for the costly conduct of our banking and political elites, is a typical music to the establishment's ears guff that this paper takes pride in. The same paper that told us that the smart fellas were investing in property. The same paper that has plenty of celebrity stories.

Certain people watch plenty of crap, but the ruling class will always do as they please.

goose2005

who_ru wrote: »

'One of the more astonishing features of modern Ireland is the galloping ignorance of our educated citizenry, who complain about being conned by the banks and the politicians but yet, like James Everett's famous 1950s man in his 'settle bed' will always choose The X Factor over The Week in Politics'.

Just as he would choose the Sindo over a real paper.