Summer rugby?

durkadurka

Thought this was worthy of debate.....


Top English and French clubs ponder switching the domestic season to the summer
By Paul Ackford

A powerful group of the bigger English and French clubs are considering a move to summer rugby to minimise the disruption caused when their top players are absent on international duty.

The switch to a season starting in March and ending in November was debated during a number of meetings held following the recent Rugby World Cup in New Zealand.

“It was an idea which received support,” confirmed a Premiership club chairman who attended the discussions.

“The clubs stated that they never wanted to play important domestic fixtures during a World Cup again because, without their star performers, it was too damaging in terms of results and attendances. Some went further than that and included the Six Nations as a concern. Summer rugby was seen as a possible solution to the problem.”

The initiative has been on the back burner for a while but appears to be gaining support as the clubs seek to exert greater control over their own futures.

“We have talked about this at board level as part of the normal planning process,” said Mark McCafferty, chief executive of Premier Rugby, the body who represents the interests of England’s senior professional clubs.

“It opens up the possibility of the better weather, a different type of rugby and the ability to expand the crowds. But we need everybody to participate in the debate because you’ve got the June internationals and Lions tours which occur in that period. So it’s not a solution we can implement by ourselves.

"These things do take several years in their gestation, but there will come a point when an opportunity presents itself and you’ve got to be ready for that.”

However, some clubs are apprehensive about such a seismic shift to a sport which, at domestic level at least, is still struggling to establish itself financially.

Leicester have experienced supporters cancelling their season tickets this season and club officials are trying to establish whether the cause is the squeeze on leisure spending brought on by a worsening economic situation, or whether it is a reaction to the constant tinkering with kick-off times to accommodate television schedules.

“There is a strong belief in the importance of generating good habits around watching rugby, which involves staging games on regular days and at regular times around which people can plan,” one club owner said. “Summer rugby is something we have no experience of, and that is an issue.”

CIARAN_BOYLE

Increased competition with the GAA would a concern here in Ireland.

I don't really follow RL but didn't they only change to summer rugby a few years back? Did that have a major effect on their attendances and revenues?

I doubt we will see it happen to be honest. Although if it did I imagine that SA would be more interested in SA teams competiting in European competitions.

irishbucsfan

Really can't see it happening tbh.

thomond2006

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Increased competition with the GAA would a concern here in Ireland.

That would cause a big problem alright.

tolosenc

Playing games in the south of France in July and August? Are they mad?

CatFromHue

If the English and Welsh got rid of the LV=Cup then they'd have 4 less games to play per season. There still would have been games during the World Cup just none in September.

In the football the Eircom league changed to a summer format but that's a completely stand alone tournament. In rugby there would have to be changes to the domestic leagues, Hec Cup, 6 Nations, June tours, and November Internationals. The benefit of changing to a Feb-Oct season may end up not being much. Games will have to kick off later due to the temp, I'm not sure what the story with temp in France would be, people will be going away on holiday so this will affect crowds during July and August, and there will be no more Mini rugby at halftime as the clubs will be on their summer break. No More Mini's!!! What are we to do at half time without them?

An interesting fact is that the optimum temperature to run a marathon in is 11 deg C. Going above or below this will affect your performance.

Brendan97

if there was a rwc on some year, it would take away all the good players from the clubs in the crucial stages of the competitions. it would leave a player with the dillema -
club-qualify for HC or win league but miss out on international rugby
country-risk qualification to european competitions, get relegated or lose out on the league

muscleshirt

not a runner in ireland...not a hope of fielding under age rugby in summer with gaelic football and hurling

Zuffer

Terrible idea come up with by someone who is bad at maths.

The bottom line is that a full set of internationals (12, more in a WC year), league (22+, more for the French), HC (6-9) plus a proper break and pre-season adds up to more than 52 weekends. There is no schedule that allows a first choice international to play each of those games and get in a proper off season break - a break that every expert and player says is necessary for player welfare.

So, there has to be compromise somewhere. Right now, each league is doing it in different ways:
- The Irish do it by reducing the number of league (Pro12) games for their internationals, playing maybe 8-12 of the 22 league games.
- The French manage by trimming a little from each. They play one or two less internationals, they send reserve squads to some away games, especially in the HC, they have a shorter off season, with Top 14 continuing to June.
- The English 'manage' by having no one in charge and no defined rules resulting in constant club v country warfare. (Yes, I know some agreements have been put in place recently, but it sounds like the clubs want to tear it up again).

At least Ireland has a clearly defined priority of matches for its players.

daveharnett

durkadurka wrote: »

A powerful group of the bigger English and French clubs are considering a move to summer rugby to minimise the disruption caused when their top players are absent on international duty.

Domestic (and Heineken) competitions run roughly September to May inclusive. 9 Months a year.

Between hosting visiting SH tours, world cups, 6 Nations and summer tours, international rugby is played virtually year round.

Given that both hemispheres play the game, there is just no way to avoid lots and lots of overlapping schedules. Given that the amateur/youth game will still need to shut down in the summer for lots of practical reasons anyway, I don't see any benefit in moving the professional domestic season out of step.

jimbomalley

After another rubbish 6 nations game I thought this may be worth rehashing. It will never happen imo but would love to see the 6 nations moved to the summer to improve the quality of the game up north. We will never overcome the southern hemisphere dominance of the game until we can at least begin to play some semblance of this game I love and that means dry pitches (for the most part anyway...summer doesnt always = nice weather I know) to create the conditions anyway for fast ball

themont85

jimbomalley wrote: »

After another rubbish 6 nations game I thought this may be worth rehashing. It will never happen imo but would love to see the 6 nations moved to the summer to improve the quality of the game up north. We will never overcome the southern hemisphere dominance of the game until we can at least begin to play some semblance of this game I love and that means dry pitches (for the most part anyway...summer doesnt always = nice weather I know) to create the conditions anyway for fast ball

Yea New Zealand is dead dry in winter

jimbomalley

themont85 wrote: »

Yea New Zealand is dead dry in winter

Yes, thats exactly what I just said, New Zealand play great rugby coz it never rains.

Tigerandahalf

No guarantee of a dry summer. Our recent summers have been wetter than our winters.
Problem is you have clubs run by business people only interested in making money.
Must admit though the game today was another borefest.
Maybe it is time to reduce the playing numbers to 14. More space for fast players and skill. It will be interesting to see how successful the 7s competition becomes. Much more attractive on the eye.

backgreen

i always thought 10s rather than 7s would be more benefical to the developing rugby nations would make the transition easier to the 15s game

irishbucsfan

jimbomalley wrote: »

Yes, thats exactly what I just said, New Zealand play great rugby coz it never rains.

Couldn't be further from the truth! :pac:

CatFromHue

Nz has a different climate than Ireland. It's in general better and warmer (in general much nicer to be honest) but it's average rainfall/precipitation is much higher than Ireland (and far far far higher if you're from the west coast of the South Island!!)

Check out the stats from Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin#Climate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cork_(city)#Climate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wellington#Climate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auckland#Climate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hokitika#Climate

Zuffer

I think amateur rugby could benefit from a summer season. This winter, from November to February, the ground was almost always wet and muddy. This makes for bad games, and it also makes it harder to train. In general, pitches and training grounds are going to be in better condition in the summer.

Beery Eyed

Zuffer wrote: »

I think amateur rugby could benefit from a summer season. This winter, from November to February, the ground was almost always wet and muddy. This makes for bad games, and it also makes it harder to train. In general, pitches and training grounds are going to be in better condition in the summer.

Completely agree. Amateur rugby would be a much more attractive proposition if it wasn't played in constant quagmires & dark, cold conditions.

Even though it still rains a lot during the summer, there are nice long evenings and generally warmer conditions which would make evening training sessions & Friday night games much more attractive.

Personally I'm not sure if the top level of the game will change its season given that there are so many powerful stakeholders involved. However for the other levels below I think it makes perfect sense to consider the move. Skill levels are higher, fitness improves due to more open games & as a spectacle the game overall benefits a lot from the improved conditions.

I've played in Oz & SA during their winters and honestly it's a lot hotter than our summers so we've nothing to worry about on that front. The best thing of all about the nice conditions in those places was the enjoyment supporters could have at even mediocre levels of games. The clubs would have BBQ's & people would stay around all day for games. Matches would start early with the under age teams kicking things off, and finish in the late afternoon with the senior team. The standard of players was no better than junior rugby in Ireland, but the atmosphere during the day was great and the games were more open & exciting to watch.

backgreen

it would finish rugby in rural ireland,not a hope of competing with the GAA,

CatFromHue

People tend to go on holiday during the Summer months and students go home/abroad too so personal wise the move could make fielding teams in July/August messy.

awec

Wouldn't pitches be rock hard in summer time?

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Wouldn't pitches be rock hard in summer time?

In a sunny climate yes. In Ireland... no!

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

In a sunny climate yes. In Ireland... no!

I dunno, the ground can get pretty firm even in Ireland.

Beery Eyed

awec wrote: »

I dunno, the ground can get pretty firm even in Ireland.

I think that's precisely what we're looking for, no? In comparison to parts of Oz & SA during their winter, our pitches are more than soft enough during the summer. Players adapt quick enough anyway & to be honest it's a case of "harden up" if someone starts complaining about the ground being too firm.

With regard to people going on holidays during the summer & players not being available, etc. People go on holidays/work trips & have other commitments all year round. Also, as someone who has been involved with arranging a Junior club team for a couple of years in the past I can vouch for the fact that lads will have no shortage of excuses for missing training/games when it doesn't suit them, or sometimes just because it's too cold/miserable out.

On the other hand I've also been involved in arranging a team abroad that plays summer rugby (Canada) & I never even had to pick up the phone to round lads up for training/matches. When 6 o'clock hit they were only too happy to get out of their office & have a run around in the sun for an hour or two.

Beery Eyed

Another alternative to moving to a fully summer based season for the amateur game would be to implement a winter break and just avoid the particularly bad period around December/January. It would avoid a large amount of the cancelled & rescheduled matches that usually happen around that time, as well as providing more games when the conditions are better.

This option would keep the rugby season along the same general lines as it is now, but it would take into account the obvious difficulty of playing the game in the deep of winter.

In general there is far too often an attitude of resistance to change within the game in Britain & Ireland. Just because it was done like that previously should not be a good enough reason to avoid changing it for the better. The game has moved on drastically in the last 20 years & it is the countries that have embraced change that have moved ahead of the rest. Where we see obvious issues we should try to look at alternative options.

Swiwi

jimbomalley wrote: »

Yes, thats exactly what I just said, New Zealand play great rugby coz it never rains.

No it just pours!

jimbomalley

Swiwi wrote: »

No it just pours!

Oh ive been and have enjoyed plenty of your all too familiar weather!! Whats your thoughts Swiwi as to improving the game in Ireland/Europe (apart from wholesale employment of Southern Hemisphere coaches.....oh wait, already done)

sydthebeat

awec wrote: »

I dunno, the ground can get pretty firm even in Ireland.

Yep, our local pitch its not only rock hard for the majority of june july august, but if games were played in it the grass would never get a chance to regrow.

Also think of the injuries in an amateur game on a warm hard ground.

Swiwi

jimbomalley wrote: »

Oh ive been and have enjoyed plenty of your all too familiar weather!! Whats your thoughts Swiwi as to improving the game in Ireland/Europe (apart from wholesale employment of Southern Hemisphere coaches.....oh wait, already done)

I do think there needs to be some change in philosophy, and an acceptance that the SH generally wins more than it loses, and therefore must be doing something right. This was best illustrated for me when Scotland played Ireland, and Scotland were awarded penalty advantage 5m from the Irish line. Any of the SH sides (esp NZ & Aust) would have pressed for the try, but Scotland resorted to yet another Garryowen, and settled for the 3 points when Kearney or whoever it was safely caught the ball.

I have been once again struck by how much faster the game is in the SH after watching the first few weeks of Super Rugby. I know you can't compare 6N internationals with a club competition, and the weather is currently better down south as we head into autumn there, but when I watched England squander 2 clear-cut try-scoring chances in the weekend, I just think the simple things like draw & pass are done better in the SH. I think too much emphasis is put on things like the scrum, which although it can spectacularly bring success such as Eng v Aus in RWC 2007, is not the be all and end all.

I do think Eng is the one exception in terms of philosophy, in that despite the fact they don't have the most enterprising backs, they do always possess a pack which can seriously threaten the SH sides, and does give them significant victories, albeit on a relatively infrequent basis.

I would like to see Ireland concentrate more on a SH style of gameplan, as I dont think Ireland generally produces the forwards to outmuscle Aus/NZ in the style of Eng or SA, but it may need a NZ coach for this, and I guess an element of risk.

I think the public settles for too much mediocrity from the Irish rugby team, I can't see how DK could be considered for continuation, and I think players like Earls would be told in NZ "you botched 2 tries there, mate, we'll pick you again when you can show how to link properly".

Ireland should be able to target a top 6 ranking, and a consistent top 2 finish in the 6N, but that requires self-belief, which I just don't think exists.

I hope Ireland get the best man for the job, but the IRFU is (in)famous for its politics, so we'll see. Fingers crossed...

Tox56

Swiwi wrote: »

I would like to see Ireland concentrate more on a SH style of gameplan, as I dont think Ireland generally produces the forwards to outmuscle Aus/NZ in the style of Eng or SA, but it may need a NZ coach for this, and I guess an element of risk.

As a former back I'll always favour scintillating backline moves over anything else, and I'd love to see Ireland play this way, but I don't think that means Ireland can't produce a pack up there with the best. Munster dominated Europe behind their (predominantly Irish) pack just 5-6 years ago. Leinster over the last few years should be the protoype. They won games in France (and elsewhere in Europe) on the back of a big pack performance (albeit with a little help on one occasion from BBBT), and although the Schmidt-inspired back play will be how that team will be remembered, it was a very good group of forwards. Look at the team that started that game v Clermont:

R Kearney, Nacewa, O'Driscoll, D'Arcy, Fitzgerald, J Sexton, Boss, Healy, Strauss, Ross, Cullen, Thorn, O'Brien, Jennings, Heaslip.

OK the backline is better, but people forget that was one of the best packs in Europe at the time. Leinster in those few years found a perfect balance, and there's no reason why Ireland can't.