Sold Wine to a minor - how much trouble am i in?

Superfint

Lads, sorry bit of a situation.

Basically i ****ed up tonight big time, got caught selling wine to a 16 year old, am a shop assistant and i didn't ask for id.

I know, i messed up, i was in the process of locking up the shop and rushing, i am normally strict on fags and wine but the teenager genunially looked order, looked like an ex girlfriend of a customer a few doors down.

Am devastated, can't ring my boss to tell him, he wont pick up the phone.
The garda took my name and details , but was a bit of a bitch, just said i would be prosecuted and the shop closed for 2 days.

What trouble am i in personally ? Heavy fine? Chance of Jail?
I've never been in trouble with the Garda before.

Am just home from work and i am shaking here, white as a ghost.

What should i do next? /contact the garda station?

MagicSean

Contact your boss. You may want to get your own solicitor in case your boss looks to hang you.

EDIT: You should probably start job hunting too.

coylemj

No point in talking to the Gardai, they will almost certainly prosecute and approaching them in an attempt to persuade them not to will probably make things worse. Talk to your employer and consult a solicitor. Don't wait for the summons to tell your employer, sitting on it will only make things worse when the summons arrives.

Superfint

Ok, thanks lads. My boss won't answer the phone, being a saturday night. I'll have to wait till tomarrow morning. Am opening the store at 8am so i'll ring hime at 9.

I don't want to contact the Garda to argue my case or anything, i ****ed up and i know it. I just want to know what am facing personally.

Is there a possibility i'll go to jail or suspended sentence?
Fine? how large?
Gonna get sacked for sure, dole que here i come

Edit - Will i have a criminal record now??

Ken.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_offences/alcohol_and_the_law.html

Under the Intoxicating Liquor Acts, it is an offence to sell alcohol to anyone under the age of 18. Anyone found guilty of doing so is liable on summary conviction in a District Court to a class B fine for a first offence and a class A fine for a second and any subsequent offence.

A summary offence is one which can only be dealt with by a judge sitting without a jury, that is, the District Court. Under the Fines Act 2010, since January 2011 there are 5 categories or classes of maximum fine applying to summary convictions. If someone is liable on summary conviction to a particular class of fine, the maximum fine is as given below. For example, the maximum fine for class B is €4,000.
Fine Class A B C D E Maximum fine €5,000 €4,000 €2,500 €1,000 €500


So looks like most you'll get is a fine.(That's my reading of it but i'm open to correction.)

muletide

Superfint wrote: »

Lads, sorry bit of a situation.

Basically i ****ed up tonight big time, got caught selling wine to a 16 year old, am a shop assistant and i didn't ask for id.

I know, i messed up, i was in the process of locking up the shop and rushing, i am normally strict on fags and wine but the teenager genunially looked order, looked like an ex girlfriend of a customer a few doors down.

Am devastated, can't ring my boss to tell him, he wont pick up the phone.
The garda took my name and details , but was a bit of a bitch, just said i would be prosecuted and the shop closed for 2 days.

What trouble am i in personally ? Heavy fine? Chance of Jail?
I've never been in trouble with the Garda before.

Am just home from work and i am shaking here, white as a ghost.

What should i do next? /contact the garda station?

First things first - relax - " for there is nothing either good or
bad, but thinking makes it so"

You made an honest mistake while under pressure - there is no one here who hasn't. And trust me you will look back on this and laugh at how worried you were at the time.

I would strongly advise talking to a solicitor - it will cost you a 100 odd quid but they will brief you on the way to proceed- For example were you trained/briefed on selling alcohol to minors and where is this training session recorded/documented.

I would also advise not making a statement to the Gardai if requested, just tell them you will be submitting a written statement and have it overlooked by your solicitor prior to submitting it.

As regards employment prospects - be honest with your boss, apologise to him and hopefully if you are a decent employee he will see this event for the honest mistake it was and will not be too keen on training someone else up to replace you.

But most of all relax - this is not the end of the world and does not deserve all the worry you are devoting to it.

moceri

Had you received specific training from your employer on the procedure to deal with age verification?
Your employer will be well pissed off if he is closed for two days. If this is a first offence, then your employer may get off with a fine.

Tell your boss asap. Your Boss would be unwise to take any prejudicial action prior to a prosecution. This at least will give you some time to look around for another job. Just chalk it down to experience.

You would do well to get legal advise.

coylemj

The jails are full, you're not going to get a sentence for selling wine to a 16 year old if you have a clean record. Fairly hefty fine I'd say.

Your solicitor (don't even think of going to court without one) will be able to exploit the fact that it was a girl because with the right makeup and clothes, a 16 year old girl could easily pass for 18-19 or even older these days. That said, you should have asked for ID but I guess you know that now.

zenno

relax o.p you will be ok. you will get a fine at the most that's all. and if you are brought to court just explain that you were in a rush to close up and you were flustered but the person looked over the age required and it was just a mistake.

don't worry about this as you will just get a slap on the wrist.

Tails142

Was it a sting? How did the Garda find out she was under sixteen?

Any way you can fit in now that she showed you a fake id?

MagicSean

Why are people talking about receiving training? It's a law not a policy. In any case most shop policies are to ask everyone.

MagicSean

Tails142 wrote: »

Was it a sting? How did the Garda find out she was under sixteen?

Any way you can fit in now that she showed you a fake id?

I presume this is why legal advice is not allowed here. Idiotic suggestions like this.

muletide

MagicSean wrote: »

Why are people talking about receiving training? It's a law not a policy. In any case most shop policies are to ask everyone.

Not sure if your Q is rhetorical or just ignorant. But will answer anyway.

Because the onus is on the employer to train/brief all his/her staff in all areas of legislation that relate to their post.

MagicSean

muletide wrote: »

Not sure if your Q is rhetorical or just ignorant. But will answer anyway.

Because the onus is on the employer to train/brief all his/her staff in all areas of legislation that relate to their post.

There is no training required. The law is simple and is posted all over most shops. Do not sell alcohol or tobacco to someone under 18.

Tails142

MagicSean wrote: »

I presume this is why legal advice is not allowed here. Idiotic suggestions like this.

Well we don't know what the exchange between the OP and Garda has been.

If the OP had thought to have said the girl showed him an ID showing she was over 16 then when the girl denied it the benefit of doubt would go for the OP that the girl has concealed/discarded the ID.

Girls tend to go around with fake ID's from friends and sisters and in fact its quite likely she had one on her person if she was buying alcohol.

You might think its an idiotic suggestion but many people worm their way out of things like this on a regular basis, and I wonder will the OP feel an idiot when he's paying a few weeks wages over in a fine?

muletide

MagicSean wrote: »

There is no training required. The law is simple and is posted all over most shops. Do not sell alcohol or tobacco to someone under 18.

Are you serious ? You are honestly trying to tell me that employers have no legal requirement to make their staff aware of and ensure they understand the areas of legislation that relate to their job.

Because if this is true I have been wasting my time briefing my staff to death over the years

coylemj

MagicSean wrote: »

Why are people talking about receiving training? It's a law not a policy. In any case most shop policies are to ask everyone.

I'd be inclined to agree, it's not like we're talking about some obscure Health & Safety rule, the dogs in the street know that..

1. It's illegal to sell liquor to under 18s.

2. These days it's impossible to tell if a teenager (expecially a girl) is under or over 18.

So when in doubt, ask for ID and take the consequences if you don't and get caught.

Trying to fall back on (lack of) employer training is something you expect from the trades unions when one of their members screws up, it does not apply in this case IMHO.

zenno

You are all making a mountain out of a molehill. it's a minor problem as it was a genuine mistake and he will explain this on the court date. the judge will not overburden him with a huge fine, it will be a light fine and a warning.

mcgarrett

Sounds like you were caught by a "test purchasing of alcohol" operation. The licensee faces prosecution.

Sinfonia

I could be totally wrong on this, but I have a question:

Does the law say that the fine should be paid by the individual person who sold the alcohol?
I would have thought that as the OP is working as a representative of the company, the company itself would be liable to pay the fine, rather than the employee, particularly if it is a limited liability company.

I'd have thought the employee could be fired by the employer for not doing his job properly, but that the employer/company would be charged with the fine.

Just wondering.

charlemont

I'd advise you not to use the fake I.D. as an excuse as this could well indeed be a "test purchasing of alcohol" sting and you would only be walking into more hassle.

Superfint

Thanks for the replies.
I never got training but of was breifed on the rules by my boss.
Look am 28, am not a kid and i made a mistake but i'll take whatever comes to me regarding a fine,etc.
My boss is sound and looked after me before so am not going to say i wasnt trained or whatever.

The garda was undercover in the store at the time near the back of the store.

I just want to say, incase people think i regularly give fags & wine (we only sell wine) to under age teens. I declined 3 teens fags earlier, am usully strict but i suppose i was off my guard in getting ready to lock up the shop.

That and the girl looked like an ex of a naighbour a few doors down, so i was thinking it was her because i looked at her twice.

Sorry if i maybe over reacted but i wasnt sure what was the situation i would be in.
Thanks again foaks

Superfint

muletide wrote: »

First things first - relax - " for there is nothing either good or
bad, but thinking makes it so"

You made an honest mistake while under pressure - there is no one here who hasn't. And trust me you will look back on this and laugh at how worried you were at the time.

I would strongly advise talking to a solicitor - it will cost you a 100 odd quid but they will brief you on the way to proceed- For example were you trained/briefed on selling alcohol to minors and where is this training session recorded/documented.

I would also advise not making a statement to the Gardai if requested, just tell them you will be submitting a written statement and have it overlooked by your solicitor prior to submitting it.

As regards employment prospects - be honest with your boss, apologise to him and hopefully if you are a decent employee he will see this event for the honest mistake it was and will not be too keen on training someone else up to replace you.

But most of all relax - this is not the end of the world and does not deserve all the worry you are devoting to it.

Thanks , felt a lot calmer after reading this post & had a cup of tea.

Del2005

MagicSean wrote: »

There is no training required. The law is simple and is posted all over most shops. Do not sell alcohol or tobacco to someone under 18.

coylemj wrote: »

I'd be inclined to agree, it's not like we're talking about some obscure Health & Safety rule, the dogs in the street know that..

1. It's illegal to sell liquor to under 18s.

2. These days it's impossible to tell if a teenager (expecially a girl) is under or over 18.

So when in doubt, ask for ID and take the consequences if you don't and get caught.

Trying to fall back on (lack of) employer training is something you expect from the trades unions when one of their members screws up, it does not apply in this case IMHO.

For you geniuses.

What form of ID is acceptable for alcohol purchases? How do you tell the genuine from the fake? How about if the person buying alcohol has ID but their over 18 friend doesn't?

There's a lot more to just saying it's 18 and ask for ID!

Superfint wrote: »

I never got training but of was breifed on the rules by my boss.

If it's not written down it doesn't exist, so training has to be provided and documented or it's a waste of money and could cost the employer.

ResearchWill

Del2005 wrote: »

For you geniuses.

What form of ID is acceptable for alcohol purchases? How do you tell the genuine from the fake? How about if the person buying alcohol has ID but their over 18 friend doesn't?

There's a lot more to just saying it's 18 and ask for ID!




If it's not written down it doesn't exist, so training has to be provided and documented or it's a waste of money and could cost the employer.

The only legally acceptable form of ID is the Garda Age Card, in other words if you sell to a minor who provided any other ID you do not have a defense, under the act. This very issue is currently awaiting a SC hearing date.

In relation to the selling of drink to a person with the correct ID who is with an obvious minor, I have heard shops refusing to sell. I suppose they believe the adult intends to supply to the minor. But I don't think it is an offence to sell to such a person, but as there is no case on it we will have to wait and see.

Del2005

ResearchWill wrote: »

The only legally acceptable form of ID is the Garda Age Card, in other words if you sell to a minor who provided any other ID you do not have a defense, under the act. This very issue is currently awaiting a SC hearing date.

So currently there's no accepted form of ID.

And how come the document that allows you to travel the world, buy alcohol everywhere else in the world doesn't work here?

In relation to the selling of drink to a person with the correct ID who is with an obvious minor, I have heard shops refusing to sell.

I said their friend was over 18.

I suppose they believe the adult intends to supply to the minor. But I don't think it is an offence to sell to such a person, but as there is no case on it we will have to wait and see.

It's an offence to sell alcohol if you know or think it'll be consumed by a minor.

See there's loads of different issues which can arise from alcohol sales, they all need to be documented by the employer and the employee has to be trained and have access to the documents. Even down to knowing that you can't sell alcohol to someone with a Passport or what a genuine Garda Age card looks like and what security features it has.

ResearchWill

Del2005 wrote: »

So currently there's no accepted form of ID.

And how come the document that allows you to travel the world, buy alcohol everywhere else in the world doesn't work here?



I said their friend was over 18.



It's an offence to sell alcohol if you know or think it'll be consumed by a minor.

See there's loads of different issues which can arise from alcohol sales, they all need to be documented by the employer and the employee has to be trained and have access to the documents. Even down to knowing that you can't sell alcohol to someone with a Passport or what a genuine Garda Age card looks like and what security features it has.

Yes there is an accepted form of ID, it is the national age card, if a retailer accepts such a card and it turns out to be a copy, it does not matter as he has a defense to the charge.

I agree on the point about not allowing passports but that is the law.

In relation to any person with the person who is buying, if the shop believe that the person buying intends to deliver the alcohol to a person under 18 they can refuse to sell. An obvious case the shop keeper sees a number of youths they have refused approach a man and money changes hands, then they are committing an offence if they sell to that man.

In relation to a second person at the till if the shopkeeper believes that the drink is being bought to be consumed by that second person and they believe that person is under 18 then it seems they should refuse to sell or look for NAC. To clarify my point earlier, I am not aware of any cases on this issue, and it would in my opinion be almost impossible to bring a charge home as you have to get into the retailers head.

The following case sets out the law as it currently stands on serving drink, it is a pub but would be much the same in a shop. http://justis.com/document.aspx?doc=c3atm4uJmWWIsjX0iYadm5mcn0iZiXmsnXuda

But getting to the informing of staff, the rules as I see them are

1 if you believe the person is under 18 or between 18 and 23 ask for NAC if can not be supplied don't sell.
2 if you believe the person is going to supply drink to another ask for the other person age card as per 1 if that NAC is or can not be supplied, don't sell.

angelfire9

Its funny, I was out in Sligo about 10/12 years ago with a mate (female) for the weekend, both over 21 at the time
She was asked for ID didn't have anything on her so licensee refused the sale
I was asked for ID, produced full driving licence, was sold the alcohol no problem (this was before the NAC came into existence)
Should the licence holder have refused to sell me the drink if he thought my friend was under age? (she is a tiny wee thing and back then I suppose we both looked young for our ages)

murrayp4

This situation sounds like a test purchase situation provided for in the latest Intoxicating Liquor legislation.

For those asking about fake IDs etc.- in a test purchase siltation, a Garda will be present (pre-arranged) to witness the transaction; the under age person cannot produce a fake ID and young person must also admit their age if challenged by the person selling the alcohol.

wilkie2006

Hey Superfint, how did the situation turn out? I hope it was okay in the end...

Superfint

wilkie2006 wrote: »

Hey Superfint, how did the situation turn out? I hope it was okay in the end...

Thanks for asking mate. No word as of yet, didn't get sacked though the shop is doing really bad at the moment - i can see my boss handing back his lease and finishing up in the next month or 2.

On top of that he didn't have a wine licence too! So i don't know what will happen.
I've been away for a few weeks, going to a solicitor this week hopefully.

wilkie2006

Superfint wrote: »

Thanks for asking mate. No word as of yet, didn't get sacked though the shop is doing really bad at the moment - i can see my boss handing back his lease and finishing up in the next month or 2.

On top of that he didn't have a wine licence too! So i don't know what will happen.
I've been away for a few weeks, going to a solicitor this week hopefully.

Fingers crossed it all works out okay. Sounds like your infraction is pretty minor compared to your boss's (by that I mean I hope it's all considered relatively by the Garda)

cloptrop

id say your boss will be punished not you ,, haha relax, its his drink licence, its up to him to make sure you dont sell drink to kids, he will prob give you a written warning if he has sense, this will make it
look like he cares ,then he may get a fine, if you get a fine it'll be 80 quid or something

MagicSean

cloptrop wrote: »

id say your boss will be punished not you ,, haha relax, its his drink licence, its up to him to make sure you dont sell drink to kids, he will prob give you a written warning if he has sense, this will make it
look like he cares ,then he may get a fine, if you get a fine it'll be 80 quid or something

It's not solely up to the boss. Each employee has responsibility too.